Do you believe in God? - Page 8

On October 10 2008 13:44 asdf2000 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 10 2008 13:36 Baal wrote: well ill take the argument. If God is omnisapient thus he knows the future, he knows your choices even before he creates you right? I am not sure that the view you have here is a correct way of looking at it, but for the sake of simplicity I will say yes. Yes, he knows your choices even before he creates you.   Where is the free will travis. Still there, it didn't go anywhere. What many people would suggest (god interceding so as to eliminate suffering) is actually what would remove free will from the equation. The point is that god loves us enough to let us make our own mistakes. He didn't choose the mistakes we make - that is the free will.

How was OJ free of his choice?, it doesnt matter what he does, he will kill his wife, he is "destined" to do so, and god knows it, even before he was born.

according to that, OJ simpson was a killer before he were born, and GOD made him and he will judge him upon actions he was meant to do, that makes no sense there is no freedom there.

because free will requires an uncertain future,a future that can never be known ,a future based on the choices we make.

I disagree. I will give an example:

Let's say you have a buddy named Ted. Your buddy named Ted has decided he will either eat steak for dinner, or shrimp for dinner. Dinner is in a few hours. He is not sure which he will eat.

Meanwhile, you build a time machine. You go into the future, and you discover Ted eating steak for dinner. You then go back to when you built the time machine, and destroy the time machine.

In what way has Ted's free will disappeared?

If god loves us despite our shortcomings as you said it's because he created those as well.

I would say that god does not judge, god sees no shortcomings.

Also,as much as I prefer buddhism to christianity it also requires huge leaps of faith to accept its concepts.

Which concepts are those?

It did dissapear, he cannot choose shrimp, he has no choice, but to eat steak.

On October 10 2008 14:00 Baal wrote: Show nested quote + On October 10 2008 13:44 asdf2000 wrote:   On October 10 2008 13:36 Baal wrote: well ill take the argument. If God is omnisapient thus he knows the future, he knows your choices even before he creates you right? I am not sure that the view you have here is a correct way of looking at it, but for the sake of simplicity I will say yes. Yes, he knows your choices even before he creates you.   Where is the free will travis. Still there, it didn't go anywhere. What many people would suggest (god interceding so as to eliminate suffering) is actually what would remove free will from the equation. The point is that god loves us enough to let us make our own mistakes. He didn't choose the mistakes we make - that is the free will. How was OJ free of his choice?, it doesnt matter what he does, he will kill his wife, he is "destined" to do so, and god knows it, even before he was born.

Because he made the choice. I don't know how I can say this any more clear. God does not make the choice for him, he does.

You seem to assume that god's awareness of what is going to happen means he is the cause of how it is experienced.

according to that, OJ simpson was a killer before he were born, and GOD made him and he will judge him upon actions he was meant to do, that makes no sense there is no freedom there.

At this point I have to ask if you want a Christian definition of god or if you want my definition of a possible god because they are surely different things.


Look at it like this:

you are already in heaven.
you are already in hell.
you are on earth right now.
free will is the power to manifest your future. god gave you this power, and a setting. god does not interfere because to do so would be to deny your free will.
god is at the beginning of time and the end of time, but god always experiences for the first time. god is empty of judgement and labels and formed thought, because god experiences everything purely

at this point you probably no longer understand wtf im talking about

On October 10 2008 14:12 Baal wrote: It did dissapear, he cannot choose shrimp, he has no choice, but to eat steak.

no

you are making some weird jump in logic that doesn't make sense(at least to me). you are forgetting that the experience of something - subjectively, is it's entire essence - subjectively.


you say "he has no choice, but to eat steak"

I say "he has a choice, and eats steak"

no wrong, and in the gods example is more clear because god MADE you.

God knows what u will do and he MADE you, how can he fucking judge what you do.


Or lets just make it simple, god knows ur gonig to hell cuz u will kill, so why bother with giving u life anyway? why not just create you and send u directly to hell?

On October 10 2008 14:30 Baal wrote: no wrong, and in the gods example is more clear because god MADE you. God knows what u will do and he MADE you, how can he fucking judge what you do.

I said that I do not believe god judges.

Or lets just make it simple, god knows ur gonig to hell cuz u will kill,

god knows ur going to hell cuz u will choose to kill

so why bother with giving u life anyway? why not just create you and send u directly to hell?

Because god loves us all, and free will is what it is all about. Free will is the only means by which one can come to understand what is going on.
I do not believe hell is permanent. But maybe it is. Or maybe it doesn't exist. I don't know. Though personally I do believe in a hell of sorts.
But maybe hell is the result of free will. Maybe free will results in both good and evil, and evil leads to hell. And maybe to interrupt is to destroy the whole process.


To make it clear, for the most part in this thread, I haven't actually been speaking of my personal beliefs.

yes, it seems you are defending a more traditional conception of god, and you are failing hard cuz there is no way to defend such a primitive and silly concept.

If you believe in hell (as in afterlife), then it wouldnt make sense to live if god already knows ur actions, he knows u will kill, so whats the god damn point for you to be born so u can only go to hell and that was decided even before u were born.... it would turn god in to a sadistic being.

On October 10 2008 14:57 Baal wrote: If you believe in hell (as in afterlife), then it wouldnt make sense to live if god already knows ur actions, he knows u will kill, so whats the god damn point for you to be born so u can only go to hell and that was decided even before u were born.... it would turn god in to a sadistic being.

this assumes that each person is not a part of a greater scheme - that there is nothing going on other than individual experience.
it also assumes that we don't affect each other.

I wonder how many people were sacrificed in order to please some god.

What if just one of those people was capable of being a revolutionary inventory, explorer, or thinker? Faith in god = Lack of knowledge

On October 10 2008 15:11 Bigbobm wrote: I wonder how many people were sacrificed in order to please some god. What if just one of those people was capable of being a revolutionary inventory, explorer, or thinker? Faith in god = Lack of knowledge

What knowledge is it, that disproves god.

"Because god loves us all"

I just hate when someone says that.

I'm an atheist btw.

On October 10 2008 13:43 MezmerizePLZ wrote: especially any god of religious origins, if god does exist it isn't something imaginable obv, and probably shoudln't even be referred to as god since god implies certain characteristics

I agree with this and the 2 posts you made above it.

I refuse to believe in a God when there are thousands of people who starve to death everyday. Murderer's, sick child rapists and peadophiles, terrorists etc. If God was so powerful he would do something about it.

Thats just my opinion.

On October 10 2008 15:11 asdf2000 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 10 2008 14:57 Baal wrote: If you believe in hell (as in afterlife), then it wouldnt make sense to live if god already knows ur actions, he knows u will kill, so whats the god damn point for you to be born so u can only go to hell and that was decided even before u were born.... it would turn god in to a sadistic being. this assumes that each person is not a part of a greater scheme - that there is nothing going on other than individual experience. it also assumes that we don't affect each other.

so im guessing u stopped defending the traditional God now and ur talking about your own beliefs am i righ?

ok atleast that would be a bit more reasonable and slightly less stupid, so a bigger scheme like what?

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On October 10 2008 15:30 Gawuss wrote: "Because god loves us all" I just hate when someone says that. I'm an atheist btw.

why do u hate that?

On October 10 2008 15:46 Baal wrote: Show nested quote + On October 10 2008 15:11 asdf2000 wrote:   On October 10 2008 14:57 Baal wrote: If you believe in hell (as in afterlife), then it wouldnt make sense to live if god already knows ur actions, he knows u will kill, so whats the god damn point for you to be born so u can only go to hell and that was decided even before u were born.... it would turn god in to a sadistic being. this assumes that each person is not a part of a greater scheme - that there is nothing going on other than individual experience. it also assumes that we don't affect each other. so im guessing u stopped defending the traditional God now and ur talking about your own beliefs am i righ? ok atleast that would be a bit more reasonable and slightly less stupid, so a bigger scheme like what?

No, I didn't stop.