Do you believe in God? - Page 7

On October 10 2008 11:33 asdf2000 wrote: Religion is here to remind us that that shit isn't actually all that important. and hopefully you realize it before you're on your deathbed. I hope all of you do. None of you will ever find lasting happiness or peace in scientific advances.

This is so fucked up to me. God created me right? So god created the conditions in which he knew I'd grow up(non-religious parents, non-religious area, etc) and then gave me a very analytical mind. I can't just believe in some random book because someone tells me to. It makes no sense.

I find it hard to believe that if there were an all powerful being that created everything that he would be so narcissistic to NEED my undying unquestioned love for him otherwise he'll punish my soul for eternity? That makes sense to religious people? So a convicted child rapist that "finds god" deserves to be in Heaven more than the Buddhist monk that devoted his whole life to peace and understanding that will just burn in hell forever because he was arbitrarily born on the other side of the planet?

What sense does that make? I really hope a religious person answers these questions for me, I'd love a perspective of someone from faith.

On October 10 2008 09:21 lebowski wrote: if you think that there are universally "good" or "bad" things you are clueless though

Because...?

1) God is male.
2) His penis is the biggest.
3) Mary was a lucky girl.

That is all I am contributing to this debate.

On October 10 2008 11:58 Baal wrote: Im an anarchist

So I take it that means yes, civilization would be better off without government. Fair enough, I can't challenge that. Actually, I tend to agree with anarchistic views. But they aren't reasonable

Im from México, the most catholic country in the entire world, i were raised as a catholic, i took many classes and i went to highschool to a catholic school, so yeah ive studied religion, much more than you have.

aaand... this is where I realize how pointless it is to try to debate you on any of this. you already know how much I have studied religion. amazing. guys, we have a prophet.
k I am done

On October 10 2008 12:10 SakiSaki wrote: Show nested quote + On October 10 2008 09:21 lebowski wrote: if you think that there are universally "good" or "bad" things you are clueless though Because...?

well I think I already responded to that on the previous page in case you missed it
if I didn't make myself clear tell me where,I admit I didn't take too much time in that response

On October 10 2008 09:15 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On October 10 2008 08:28 SakiSaki wrote:   On October 10 2008 06:54 lebowski wrote: well the most important thing of all is that a strictly defined "good" or "evil" doesn't exist what do you base this off? well first of all you can easily identify that different societies have different ethics throughout history For communities unable to feed themselves even cannibalism was acceptable ,with some restrictions. If we don't base our search for what is good for ourselves to books of supposed divine origin,we will inevitably draw different conclusions because we don't have similar experiences or even the same intelligence to draw the same. Most people will agree on some basic stuff,like that random murder is unethical,as that easily relates to self preservation and species preservation insticts. Most animals will do the same in a purely instictive way. So what organised society is doing is to enforce a certain moral code and punish those who fail to comply with it.Those who believe that it's good that such a code forced to people should be influenced by metaphysical packages of god given laws clearly don't understand that humanity will only have it's progress hindered by basing its decisions on the sayings of an absolute(non human) authority

On October 10 2008 06:13 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On October 10 2008 00:05 Jelle wrote:   On October 09 2008 20:29 lebowski wrote: the Big Bang, a generally accepted theory on the creation of the universe by most scientists today, involves both time and space to be created with it. I know this is kind of a lot to ask, but do you happen to have a source for this claim? I skimmed through this book by hawking long ago and if I remember correctly he said something along the lines of "it wouldn't be useful to record history before there was anything around, so we can just say that time started when the big bang occured" That's different from what you're saying imo also about what you said of "the space is getting larger as galaxies move farther apart" is confusing to me.. I imagine an infinite space that already was infinite from the start but just the objects in it are moving farther apart - is this wrong? after a very small search I believe that this page sums it up well: http://www.big-bang-theory.com/ see where it sais "common misconceptions", the universe is like an expanding ballon,space is not infinite also : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

thx a lot lebowski!

On October 10 2008 12:07 SKoT wrote: Show nested quote + On October 10 2008 11:33 asdf2000 wrote: Religion is here to remind us that that shit isn't actually all that important. and hopefully you realize it before you're on your deathbed. I hope all of you do. None of you will ever find lasting happiness or peace in scientific advances. This is so fucked up to me. God created me right?

To make it clear, I never said I believed in god. You don't have to believe in god or gods to be religious.

So god created the conditions in which he knew I'd grow up(non-religious parents, non-religious area, etc)and then gave me a very analytical mind.

God did not give you a very analytical mind, that is a manifestation of your free will.

I can't just believe in some random book because someone tells me to. It makes no sense.

I absolutely agree.

I find it hard to believe that if there were an all powerful being that created everything that he would be so narcissistic to NEED my undying unquestioned love for him otherwise he'll punish my soul for eternity?

He doesn't need it. He loves you regardless of what you do.

But you not loving him results in negative consequences. He isn't punishing you for not loving him, that's a bastardization of Jesus's teachings. (i have to assume u are talking about christianity)

So to re-iterate: the loving of god is for you, not for god. god is already with you and will always be, regardless of what you do.

That makes sense to religious people? So a convicted child rapist that "finds god" deserves to be in Heaven more than the Buddhist monk that devoted his whole life to peace and understanding that will just burn in hell forever because he was arbitrarily born on the other side of the planet?

Again, this is caused by more bastardizations of Jesus's teachings. I agree, that shit is very stupid. The bible is a collection of stories, I wouldn't take most of it literally.

God is personal. No doubt the Buddhist monk knows god, just in a different way. Surely they would both go to heaven.

9obviously I am speculating, but I am just sharing my understanding)

What sense does that make? I really hope a religious person answers these questions for me, I'd love a perspective of someone from faith.

faith is a gross term. most misunderstand it for "blind faith". In reality most of what we know is based on faith. How much of science do we just assume is correct without actually tsting it in our own personal experience?

asdf you are not precise in what you are saying. Knowing the future actions of your creation is not really granting it any free will.If god doesn't know the future he is not powerful,if he does know it there is no free will.

Religious people avoid this argument by returning to the proposition that logic is a flawed instrument and returning to faith, when actually logic is the only instrument that humans have.Even when they denounce it they are using it.

And it's really different to assume that the world isn't plotting against you when they announce research results about evolution,physics etc,than to accept the contents of a book of supposedly divine origin.

Also being religious without believing in god is something I've never heard of before,explain what you mean.

Not in any of the ways mankind can possibly conceive it. I don't know what the answers are, but I'm doubtless on what they aren't.

On October 10 2008 12:12 asdf2000 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 10 2008 11:58 Baal wrote: Im an anarchist So I take it that means yes, civilization would be better off without government. Fair enough, I can't challenge that. Actually, I tend to agree with anarchistic views. But they aren't reasonable   Im from México, the most catholic country in the entire world, i were raised as a catholic, i took many classes and i went to highschool to a catholic school, so yeah ive studied religion, much more than you have. aaand... this is where I realize how pointless it is to try to debate you on any of this. you already know how much I have studied religion. amazing. guys, we have a prophet. k I am done

You just said that we dont need technolgy for happiness etc, then you say anarchism isnt reasonable... define ur thoughts Travis, i dont want u to justify that shit on another post but if u have that kind of though that happiness is the most vital thing in general (i agree), then anarchy is more than reasonable.


And dont be a jackass, you were the first one to assume i didnt know about religion didnt you? so now you blame me for giving u the same treatment?

On October 10 2008 12:58 lebowski wrote: asdf you are not precise in what you are saying. Knowing the future actions of your creation is not really granting it any free will.

Howso?

If god is omniscient he is in the future, the past, and the present.
In what way does this destroy free will?

If god doesn't know the future he is not powerful,if he does know it there is no free will.

Again, why? Why does him knowing the future mean man has no free will.

Religious people avoid this argument by returning to the proposition that logic is a flawed instrument and returning to faith, when actually logic is the only instrument that humans have.Even when they denounce it they are using it.

religious parrots maybe

Also being religious without believing in god is something I've never heard of before,explain what you mean.

I am a buddhist. If you want more elaboration than that I will gladly give it.

On October 10 2008 13:06 Baal wrote: You just said that we dont need technolgy for happiness etc,

No material thing will give you lasting happiness

then you say anarchism isnt reasonable... define ur thoughts Travis

it's not reasonable in that the majority of humanity won't allow it.

And dont be a jackass, you were the first one to assume i didnt know about religion didnt you?

Well, you were stereotyping things to a retarded extreme.

so now you blame me for giving u the same treatment?

we said very different things

well ill take the argument.

If God is omnisapient thus he knows the future, he knows your choices even before he creates you right? i mean he knows OJ simpson were going to kill her wife that day, he knew that a million years ago, yet he creates him and OJ kills his wife... then god sends him to hell.

Where is the free will travis.

free will doesn't exist

and neither does god

especially any god of religious origins, if god does exist it isn't something imaginable obv, and probably shoudln't even be referred to as god since god implies certain characteristics

On October 10 2008 13:36 Baal wrote: well ill take the argument. If God is omnisapient thus he knows the future, he knows your choices even before he creates you right?

I am not sure that the view you have here is a correct way of looking at it, but for the sake of simplicity I will say yes. Yes, he knows your choices even before he creates you.

Where is the free will travis.

Still there, it didn't go anywhere.

What many people would suggest (god interceding so as to eliminate suffering) is actually what would remove free will from the equation.

The point is that god loves us enough to let us make our own mistakes. He didn't choose the mistakes we make - that is the free will.

hey lebowski i am sorry I editted your post on accident and I can't bring it back. I have a reply posted now, though

Nope, I dont believe in santa claus either. I cant believe there is actually an argument here between supposedly bright online poker players, how can you not see religion is the biggest and best bluff in history...

God how I understand IT is the context of all context.