NL50 - JJ in gross spot

No stats/reads on villain, he had just joined the table.

I have no idea how to play this on this board facing constant aggression. Turn is even worse card cos that means I'm losing to AQ as well. I figure I'm not beating much here..

Submitted by : lazymej

PokerStars Game #20914715799: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/10/04 6:53:35 ET
Table 'Tietjen II' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: mettew ($80.20 in chips)
Seat 2: aico ($29.10 in chips)
Seat 3: Hero ($50.95 in chips)
Seat 4: CusICan21 ($77 in chips)
Seat 5: Chef_XC ($48.75 in chips)
Seat 6: bennyluo ($71.65 in chips)
Chef_XC: posts small blind $0.25
bennyluo: posts big blind $0.50

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
mettew: folds
aico: calls $0.50
Hero : raises $2 to $2.50
CusICan21: calls $2.50
Chef_XC: raises $6.50 to $9
bennyluo: folds
aico: folds
Hero : calls $6.50
CusICan21: folds

Flop (Pot : $21.50)

   
Chef_XC: bets $11
Hero : calls $11

Turn (Pot : $43.50)

   
Chef_XC: bets $28.75 and is all-in
Hero : folds
Uncalled bet ($28.75) returned to Chef_XC
Chef_XC collected $41.40 from pot
Chef_XC: doesn't show hand

Summary
Total pot $43.50 | Rake $2.10
Board  
Seat 1: mettew folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: aico folded before Flop
Seat 3: Hero folded on the Turn
Seat 4: CusICan21 (button) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Chef_XC (small blind) collected ($41.40)
Seat 6: bennyluo (big blind) folded before Flop

jacks are hard to play against an unknown but calling the turn is out of the question, gotta call the flop tho
I would probably 4bet or fold preflop.

leaning towards 4bet since its a really good spot for a light squeeze for him

think i'd just fold pf but i agree with tallyho

call and use position, and yeah you beat nothing

On October 04 2008 10:48 TallyHo wrote: jacks are hard to play against an unknown but calling the turn is out of the question, gotta call the flop tho I would probably 4bet or fold preflop.

i like this

dude is never calling with worse without history flat calling his 3b potential squeeze is way better than 4betting.

that said i still most likely fold pf to his 3b without reason to not fold

wat

his 3bet is huge.

either get it in or fold.

On October 04 2008 15:31 CrownRoyal wrote: dude is never calling with worse without history flat calling his 3b potential squeeze is way better than 4betting. that said i still most likely fold pf to his 3b without reason to not fold

word

i'm actually about 50-50 to fold or shove here. if he just feels tight and happy so far then i am more likely to fold, if he seems like he's losing during this session so far then i am more likely to shove

On October 04 2008 15:31 CrownRoyal wrote: flat calling his 3b potential squeeze is way better than 4betting.

wtf

I mean... I disagree.
I think shove > fold > call
others opinions?

yeah crownroyal's reasoning is right and it's why i preferred folding. if you 4bet here jacks are always the worst hand when he calls you. so if you 4bet it's as a bluff. no idea why myth might want a shove here unless this guy is squeezing remarkably light for a limit where most players don't seem to squeeze at all, but i guess he's just thinking the guy could be squeezing light. or he's still in tournament-crush mode

actually shove is pretty cool here now that i think about it. anyone wanna lay out a hypothetical squeezing range and hypothetical calling range to see how JJ holds up?

my own is like squeezing range: TT+ and AQo+, and calling range: QQ+ making the shove here +10.8bb. w/ rake ofc it's pretty marginal given those assumptions. the downside here is that NL50 is pretty nitty so in a vacuum, a respectable squeeze is probably weighted a lot more heavily toward AK, TT+ and doesn't involve a lot of AQ.

i'm sticking w/ folding if i don't have any more informationz

slam it in pf imo if your oop 100%

in pos still probably jam it in here (if you know nothing about him) since there is a limper, you raised and some guy flatted...kinda the ideal squeeze spot and there are too many bad flops

argghh this does totally suck... I think I'm shoving it in on this flop, his c-betting range is going to be comprised of a king and qq+ very rarely, he might stack off with TT on the flop as well, but I think by jamming flop is a good line to take here.


with no reads however you may as well just jam preflop, getting it in with jacks is never that horrible and even if we're a bit behind his calling range we might still have some fold equity.

On October 05 2008 10:25 failsafe wrote: actually shove is pretty cool here now that i think about it. anyone wanna lay out a hypothetical squeezing range and hypothetical calling range to see how JJ holds up? my own is like squeezing range: TT+ and AQo+, and calling range: QQ+ making the shove here +10.8bb. w/ rake ofc it's pretty marginal given those assumptions. the downside here is that NL50 is pretty nitty so in a vacuum, a respectable squeeze is probably weighted a lot more heavily toward AK, TT+ and doesn't involve a lot of AQ. i'm sticking w/ folding if i don't have any more informationz

myth is agreeing with my pf analysis and talking about shoving or folding the turn

On October 05 2008 10:25 failsafe wrote: actually shove is pretty cool here now that i think about it. anyone wanna lay out a hypothetical squeezing range and hypothetical calling range to see how JJ holds up? my own is like squeezing range: TT+ and AQo+, and calling range: QQ+ making the shove here +10.8bb. w/ rake ofc it's pretty marginal given those assumptions. the downside here is that NL50 is pretty nitty so in a vacuum, a respectable squeeze is probably weighted a lot more heavily toward AK, TT+ and doesn't involve a lot of AQ. i'm sticking w/ folding if i don't have any more informationz

my thought process was about the same and I think shoving is _at least_ breakeven. I think we have to generalize this a bit more. assuming only QQ+ calls, we have to find 36 other combinations that squeezed who fold to a shove for this to be neutral EV. of course some people won't fold AK here and some squeeze tighter others way lighter, some nits might even fold queens. and it's simply not true that you'll only get called by better hands - just include the occasional monkey calling with lower pairs because he "thinks you have AK" or the gambling fish with the sooted connectors (it's still nl50..)

tallyho the problem is that if he's bluffing we get more value from jacks by calling in position whereas shoving makes him fold most inferior hands.

with history and stuff i shove here with JJ a lot for value but if the dude has no reason to hate you he prob isnt calling with worse very much so its better to maximize your value by trying to extract another bet (allin basically) on the flop

i agree with pooruser however that oop the decision is either fold or shove

calling is an option for sure. but I still dont believe it's more valuable than shoving even if we're in position. I think you'll have to give up on Q+ high flops most of the time and if the flop doesnt have any overcards, we're getting stacked by QQ+ anyway (in a more proftable way than pf) and IMO the times he bluffs or semibluffs or bets worse pairs "for value" can't outweigh the times we're actually behind or simply have to give up because of bad flops

good thread. if you think that on the average your NL50 player who buys in for 50 and then squeezes from the blinds to $9 is doing this w/ ~4.5%+ you've gotta shove

crown you can't shove turn cuz he did it first

So what you guys are saying is I shouldn't be calling pf? Shove or fold are superior? I didn't have enough of a read to tell how tight he was as he had just joined.

I was pretty much calling his squeeze to get it in on a good flop.. which in this case never came.