Money won/lost without showdown

I looked through older threads, but could not find a sufficiently detailed answer.

You know the graphs in PT3 which shows $ won with showdown, $ won without showdown, and actual $ won. Well, what is a normal situation for $ won without showdown. Should it be positive overall?

The reason I ask is because my figures over the past 15k hands at 6-max are as follows:

IN ALL POSITIONS:
-Won with Showdown: $11.5k
-Won without Showdown: -7.5k (steady downsloping line)
-Actually won: 4k

OUTSIDE OF BLINDS (UTG, UTG+1, CO, OTB)
-Won with Showdown: $10.1k
-Won without Showdown: 3.6k
-Actually won: 13.7k

To me this looks like my non-showdown winnings are positive in pots that I choose to enter, but blinds bring that number WAAAY down cuz blinds suck... In positions where I am not forced to post money 100% of the time, my non-showdown winnings are positive. Is this a normal situation, or should non-showdown winnings be positive even figuring in the blind positions?

i play NL 2 atm so most of my winnings come from showdowns cuz nobody folds

who gives a fuck money is money

It might help optimize his play?

My nonshowdown is pretty much a downsloping line too. But I'm at nl25. Would like to know how this is for most winners at my stake~

who cares? people over think these things if you're winning keep doing what you're doing

On September 17 2008 21:15 Night2o1 wrote: It might help optimize his play? My nonshowdown is pretty much a downsloping line too. But I'm at nl25. Would like to know how this is for most winners at my stake~

Well my main issue here is that it seems that it's downsloping evenly because of the blinds and if that is normal or if other players at these limts (NL200-NL600) have a significantly different result.

As for python's response...I am quite certain that, even though I am winning at a pretty good rate at NL200 and NL400, there are plenty of ways I can improve my play. And I am wondering whether these figures are a symptom of a problem or if they are perfectly normal.

On September 17 2008 19:25 phexac wrote: I looked through older threads, but could not find a sufficiently detailed answer. You know the graphs in PT3 which shows $ won with showdown, $ won without showdown, and actual $ won. Well, what is a normal situation for $ won without showdown. Should it be positive overall? The reason I ask is because my figures over the past 15k hands at 6-max are as follows: IN ALL POSITIONS: -Won with Showdown: $11.5k -Won without Showdown: -7.5k (steady downsloping line) -Actually won: 4k OUTSIDE OF BLINDS (UTG, UTG+1, CO, OTB) -Won with Showdown: $10.1k -Won without Showdown: 3.6k -Actually won: 13.7k To me this looks like my non-showdown winnings are positive in pots that I choose to enter, but blinds bring that number WAAAY down cuz blinds suck... In positions where I am not forced to post money 100% of the time, my non-showdown winnings are positive. Is this a normal situation, or should non-showdown winnings be positive even figuring in the blind positions?

hey phexac... i posted the same question at DC. a couple of pros there answered.

"I see a lot of people concerned about their non-showdown losses, but I don't see why its a big deal. If you try hard to bring up your non-showdown winnings, you'll probably bring down your showdown winnings, and vice versa. You should spend all your time concentrating on your overall winnings, and not worry too much about where they come from.

I almost always think people worry too much about stats that aren't $/hand though, so if you're into that sort of thing I'm sure there are good ways to deal with it." -dj sensei

"Negative nonshowdown winnings dont matter too much if your showdown winnings are way in the black. I think it mostly comes down to your particular playing style." -dj sensei

"there are a huge number of reasons why non showdown lines could be in the negative. sooted mentioned a good example. also if you're a calling station it's going to look like you destroy everyone in non-showdown pots because you're calling in places that others would fold. if you make a big (correct) fold it's going to look like you're a huge nit on the graph, but instead you're higher in overall $ than you would otherwise be.

All this said, it's something we should strive to work on... winning more uncontested pots. But winning uncontested pots doesn't directly correlate to non-showdown winnings...if that makes sense. there are more factors involved.

edit: i'd also guess taht one big area where people are leaking in non-sd pots is in 3bet pots where they build a big pot but dont steal it back often enough. this is hard to do at ssnl because everyone is just a huge station. i wouldn't get too flipped out about having big losses in non-sd pots, but that said we should all be still working towards getting that line into the +... just dont get it effect your mindset so much where you get "win every pot" syndrome.

like anything stat related, if you go out of yoru way to try to "correct" a stat in holdem manager, it's highly likely you'll overcorrect and now be leaking in new ways. i know because it's happened to me in the past." -WiltOnTilt

yeah i agree. becoming too much of a stat or graph stickler sometimes ruins aspects of ur game that was a lot better before when you were not too conscious about stats too much. imo people usually question their stats/graphs when not satisfied with their results, so it's really tied with how well ur doing, making it pointless really. getting coached by a better player or good videos are i think the best way to plug leaks in your game.

On September 17 2008 21:11 sawseech wrote: who gives a fuck money is money

lies, clearly the more you win withouth showdown the bigger your penis is.

this is what happens when you have non showdown winnings way too high

On September 18 2008 00:07 Baal wrote: Show nested quote + On September 17 2008 21:11 sawseech wrote: who gives a fuck money is money lies, clearly the more you win withouth showdown the bigger your penis is.

i couldn't agree more...

On September 18 2008 00:07 Baal wrote: Show nested quote + On September 17 2008 21:11 sawseech wrote: who gives a fuck money is money lies, clearly the more you win withouth showdown the bigger your penis is.

this pretty much sums up the whole topic. it is slightly less manly to win with more showdowns than non-sd but w/e makes more bread.

On September 18 2008 00:11 napalm wrote: this is what happens when you have non showdown winnings way too high

OMFG is this real?
I suspect this is a fake graph ^^

the 2 main reasons you'll have massive drops in non showdown winnings are: 1) frequently double barrelling, then c/fing rivers (if you they don't bet then it'll just end up in -showdown winnings) 2) calling down 2 barrels, folding to 3rd, or floating flop cbets in 3bet pots, folding to turn bets, floating flop raises in opened pots, folding to turns. etc
basically any situation where you're putting in a large amount of $ and then folding on a later street will result in large losses in non showdown winnings. this doesn't mean that it's always BAD to do any of these things, particularly if, for example, you have a read that some guy frequently check raises dry flops with air, and gives up on the turn, then it might be right to float the flop, but fold to a turn bet. if you have a read some guy 3bets a ton, cbets 100% of the time, but c/fs the turn like 90% then floating the flop is gonna be correct with any 2 cards (extreme example but you get the idea), and obviously when he bets you have to fold your float. don't focus too much on trying to improve your non-sd winnings, just focus on making the best plays vs the specific opponents on every street and you should do ok in both sd and non-sd winnings. you're probably playing a ton of tables and simply giving up on a huge amount of small/medium sized pots, which is not bad since you're doing fine overall, but your winrate would obviously improve if you played less tables and focused more on taking down more of the medium sized pots

graph above is real!

wow my graph is fucked too

or i obviously have a very big penis



it seems like me and naplam have very diff styles from the majority the pple here. nits nits nits! + small penis

have never looked at this before so really dont know much about it. it would seem for winning players though its generally inverted and for very good players its positive in both but still inverted

ok i examined more closely and they went way up when i was making lots of big river bluffs as you can see the graph went up too so i guess i ran good and the bluffs all worked.

In sesions where im playing wild the Won withouth showdown is higher than the won at showdown.... probably players playing avobe 38/28 have that kind of graph like Durrr maybe o_o ?

i think its extremely interesting to compare the graphs with relative styles. people are really overlooking how much information is actually disclosed in these graphs if the general style of the player is known.

Baals graph wins imo, steady winrate in both lines are rare.

i think it means that baal is consistently full of shit on the river and doesnt get looked up much which is a very good thing. either that or hes shoving a lot early in the hands (flop/turn) and running really really good

i think if you are shoving earlier in the hand with more crap you either have higher nonshowdown winnings from having people fold and lower showdown winnings cause they have better hands than you on avg or you have better hands than them on avg which means your showdown winnings go up but your nonshowdown winnings go down cause you usually ahve it

Last couple of graphs have been interesting guys. Very kewl

my nonshowdown winnigns are high coz im making plays all the fucking time lol (to the regulars)
im like 24/20 btw nothing crazy

and it might be a huge leak coz baals and dauts graph looks so much sexier
baal seems to have just the right mix but is having the right mix optimal?

i bet midian has a really high nonshowdown winnings graph

Hint hint Midian post a graph

This entire topic baffles me. I pretty much always have a steadily downsloping graph at the end of every session in Non-SD. One session in 10 or so ends up breakeven/winning a bit but my long term graph has lost an absolute shitload at Non-SD while my SD winnings are pretty damn big.

I think it really is a style thing, but I honestly find it hard to spot big differences in the play of an 'agressive, Non-SD' kinda player and myself. It seems to be greatly orientated around the small differences. I think adding considerably more light 3betting almost instantly boosts non-SD a huge amount. I've been experimenting with 3betting much more lately and almost every session when I made it my prerogative to just 3bet relentlessly, probably even in spots where overall its -EV, my non-SD has been steadily rising.

As Midian said I think it also has alot to do with floating once with your 77 on A52 or whatever and folding to a turn bet, or floating once with your JJ on a Q85 in a 3bet pot.

I honestly find it incredibly hard to actually purposfully force my non-SD into the black. I have dropped down limits before for a session with the single purpose to just make my non-SD winnings a steadily rising line, whether it makes my overall style +EV or not, and failed.

I'm not particularly bothered as my current style works fine for making the moneys, I just wonder why I literally find it almost impossible to make my non-SD consistently positive/breakeven like say Daut or Baal.

On October 29 2008 19:17 Daut wrote: i think it means that baal is consistently full of shit on the river and doesnt get looked up much which is a very good thing. either that or hes shoving a lot early in the hands (flop/turn) and running really really good i think if you are shoving earlier in the hand with more crap you either have higher nonshowdown winnings from having people fold and lower showdown winnings cause they have better hands than you on avg or you have better hands than them on avg which means your showdown winnings go up but your nonshowdown winnings go down cause you usually ahve it

No its not runing good, this graph goes the same for 200k hands, and it isnt either that people give me credit, i play really really loose and i take away many pots so i get looked up with unvelibable hands, to the point i know even if its like such a perfect spot to bluff i cant cuz they will look me up with bottom pair.

I dont want to go much in depth how i play but lets just say i play really loose and im quite stationary, i seriously doubt anyone on lpnet (even Midian) goes to showdown as much as i do.

It's mainly about just finding spots to pick up pots with strong hand reading, player reading and aggression. Building pots in order to steal them on later streets mixexd with strong hand reading can do wonders for your non-SD winnings. A lot of people are missing a lot of spots to pick up money.

My non-SD winnings are pretty ridiculous when I'm playing 4-6 tables. Selective, relentless aggression. It doesn't have to do with 3 betting. Most of the pots I pick up are from just attacking people's weaknesses. Passive players who call too much with hands that can't stand a lot of heat. They don't have the stones to just raise you out of the pot or call you down. Or giving an aggressive player opportunity to gift you some money and then shoving on him. It's about figuring out where and why people's ranges and frequencies are poorly balanced and attacking them properly. A lot of people are very, very bad at balancing their ranges in a lot of spots and it makes it really easy to define their very weak or polarized range and then to just attack, attack, attack.

And know when to back off. And why you're doing everything. Overdoing it is much, much worse than not doing it at all. You just end up owning yourself.

i play like freak too. freak post ur graph!

i have this theory that that is gonna be alot more variance in sd winnings but not so much in non-sd so having a high non-sd might be actually better

On October 30 2008 02:06 angryfishes wrote: i have this theory that that is gonna be alot more variance in sd winnings but not so much in non-sd so having a high non-sd might be actually better

non-SD winnings also have huge variance, maye bigger than showdown ones

I can't replicate those graphs as I don't have PT3, but I can show with PokerEV, this is last 100k hands, if I enumerate anymore my comp blows up.



As you can see having negative non-showdown winnings is not necessarily a bad thing. For what it's worth I 12-20 table FR

then your graph makes more sense babs
theres a lot of spots you call call fold river in full ring so won w/o showdown is lower

fwiw my won money without showdown is plus in 6max, and slightly negative in full ring

lulz

my W$WSF is 51%.
my WTSD is 27%.
my W$SD is 48%.

AF flop: 4.27
AF turn: 2.84
AF river: 2.59

On October 29 2008 23:58 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote: It's mainly about just finding spots to pick up pots with strong hand reading, player reading and aggression. Building pots in order to steal them on later streets mixexd with strong hand reading can do wonders for your non-SD winnings. A lot of people are missing a lot of spots to pick up money. My non-SD winnings are pretty ridiculous when I'm playing 4-6 tables. Selective, relentless aggression. It doesn't have to do with 3 betting. Most of the pots I pick up are from just attacking people's weaknesses. Passive players who call too much with hands that can't stand a lot of heat. They don't have the stones to just raise you out of the pot or call you down. Or giving an aggressive player opportunity to gift you some money and then shoving on him. It's about figuring out where and why people's ranges and frequencies are poorly balanced and attacking them properly. A lot of people are very, very bad at balancing their ranges in a lot of spots and it makes it really easy to define their very weak or polarized range and then to just attack, attack, attack. And know when to back off. And why you're doing everything. Overdoing it is much, much worse than not doing it at all. You just end up owning yourself.

Yeah I basically do this too.

Seems like people who have negative graphs at non-sd don't pick up enough pots in obvious spots.

Example: like when it's a 3way limped pot (one guy limping, small blind coming in and you're on the bb) and you have no showdown value on a very dry board and not betting it when SB checks. Stuff like that.

On October 29 2008 22:13 angryfishes wrote: i bet midian has a really high nonshowdown winnings graph

Not particularly, however this month's non SD winnings are really high.

Quite a few screenshots here, but here ya go:

Since I restarted playing on the 8th August





This month:

so i guess i suck at poker :-(

I think it really depends of how many tables you play, if you are 4 tabling and have negative non-sd you are playing too weak but if you 24 table you are gonna have them in the negative but its ok.

Anyway here is my graph for the last 3 months on FR

On October 30 2008 06:05 ToT)MidiaN( wrote: Show nested quote + On October 29 2008 22:13 angryfishes wrote: i bet midian has a really high nonshowdown winnings graph Since I restarted playing on the 8th August

Stop copying my graph 8D