PPA Letter McCain vs online poker

http://capwiz.com/pokerplayersallianc...s/alert/?alertid=11856431&type=CA


Dear Russell,

Republican presidential nominee John McCain needs to hear from you TODAY. This week, the Republican Platform Committee included language in the party platform (a document outlining the priorities of the GOP) that supports efforts to outlaw online poker and other forms of online gaming. This is especially troubling given that hundreds of PPA members and poker enthusiasts contacted the Platform Committee and stated their preference that the GOP not include anti-online gaming language in this year’s platform like they did in 2000 and 2004. Sadly, the GOP ignored these calls and decided to abdicate core conservative principles in favor of a "nanny-state" approach to governance.

Please let McCain know you are not pleased with his party’s decision by sending him a letter TODAY telling him to repudiate this plank of the GOP platform. Simply click the button below to send a letter directly to McCain’s presidential campaign. You can send PPA's prewritten letter in less than 60 seconds! Or, you can use the site to send your own letter. It's that easy!

Send Email to John McCain

Thank you for making your voice heard. With the election just weeks away it is more important than ever that the candidates know POKER PLAYERS VOTE!

Poker Players Alliance

obama better win or i'll be drafted and not able to play poker anyway

Why doesn't the PPA just support Obama? I thought he was on our side of this issue?

from what i understand from a couple of friends that live in arizona, nothing's gonna change mccain's stance on poker. god help us if he wins =/

I hate being one of those people that decides to vote for somebody just based on an issue or two, but this pretty much does it for me.

On August 29 2008 15:10 Bigbobm wrote: Why doesn't the PPA just support Obama? I thought he was on our side of this issue?

because he'll turn the nation into a socialist nation which is a step above communism

seriously mccain is so scary and terrible. It's really too bad everyone is massively racist and religious obama is awesome

Honestly I think both McCain and Obama are terrible for this country, but looks like I gotta go with the lesser of two evils here.

i sent but that isnt going to bend the opinions of nazi mccain

PPA does support Obama...

LOL McCain

On August 29 2008 15:51 rnbsalsa88 wrote: PPA does support Obama...

why not?

On August 29 2008 16:18 TimDawg wrote: Show nested quote + On August 29 2008 15:51 rnbsalsa88 wrote: PPA does support Obama... why not?

cory! cory!

On August 29 2008 17:21 Bigbobm wrote: Show nested quote + On August 29 2008 16:18 TimDawg wrote:   On August 29 2008 15:51 rnbsalsa88 wrote: PPA does support Obama... why not?

err, he said it does*

boy do i feel silly.

but anyways, why bother with the McCain campaign? Or are they just hedging their bets

everyone loved Mccain until he won the republican nomination

what is his stance on online gambling? he's been known to break from his party on a lot of issues

fuck i hope obama wins

go obama
holdddd

On August 29 2008 18:33 Yugless wrote: everyone loved Mccain until he won the republican nomination what is his stance on online gambling? he's been known to break from his party on a lot of issues

Not since he became their presidential nominee. Refer to Kerry's speech.

standard flip

On August 29 2008 19:18 Pacifist wrote: Show nested quote + On August 29 2008 18:33 Yugless wrote: everyone loved Mccain until he won the republican nomination what is his stance on online gambling? he's been known to break from his party on a lot of issues Not since he became their presidential nominee. Refer to Kerry's speech.

This letter isn't going to do anything to change McCain's mind - if you are gonna take some sorta action to influence politics and get a chance for legal online poker in the USA, you should do everything you can to get Obama elected. Volunteer for the campaign, talk to friends, and make sure people know how far McCain has gone from the good guy we knew in 2000.

Obama is a poker player himself and supposedly a pretty good one. He's also a democrat, and remember that it was the REPUBLICANS who snuck that BS UIGEA bill in before the holidays and it was BUSH who signed it into law. Obama is by far the best chance we have, and democrats overall are more supportive of online poker than republicans.

i just want to quickly interject here with "YAY UK!"

that's all, plz continue

Sometimes I wonder how anyone who has a net worth of less than a million dollars could possibly be republican and pro-mccain. And then I realize that 50% of all Americans still believes that the earth and everything on it was created less than 10,000 years ago in its current form by a supreme god.

And then it makes sense.

btw, I had a conversation with my friend's parents the other day at a BBQ. They are both very well educated, decent people. They are also extremely wealthy. They agree with obama on most of the issues but they said they were going to vote for mccain. I asked them why? They said that as much as they care about the environment and social justice, etc. its not worth $500,000 a year to them. That is how much less they are paying in taxes now than they did before bush.

Rich people are republican, it makes sense.

"USA cant afford a third Bush thirm"

I agree

And here's some more info:


http://www.findabet.co.uk/my-gambling-blog_files/poker-barack-obama.php

Although for many politicians the support of poker players may be the furthest demographic from their minds American presidential hopeful, Senator Barack Obama is proving that having the gamblers on his side may prove an enormous help. Due to Obama’s stance on US legislature concerning the game he is drumming up a lot of interest from the masses of poker enthusiasts across the nation. Although Senator John McCain is also a fan of gambling he frequents craps tables while Obama has identified himself as a Texas Hold ‘Em and Seven-Card Stud buff. The Democrat also seeks an end to the illegality of certain poker games within the United States and hopes to offer restrictions rather than outright bans. The Poker Players for Obama maintain consistent blog postings on his website and even former die-hard Republican, Doyle Brunson has announced that his vote will go toward the Democratic candidate in November. Perhaps the most striking sign of support comes from the million strong Pokers Players Alliance as their number alone shows great potential for favorable voting. Considering that McCain supports the Republican bid for banning internet poker many fans of the game see Obama as the only correct candidate if they wish to continue enjoying their hobby or livelihood online. Regardless of other policies and campaign promises, Obama’s stance on poker and personal regard for the game has gained him a strong following as US elections grow ever closer.

Brunson backs Obama:
http://www.holdempokerchat.com/forum/...le-brunson-backs-obama-president.html

"During this poker cash game lull, I am on this race for President like stupid is on Britney Spears. I have come to the conclusion that poker players have to support Obama. We can?t possibly let McCain be our President because he supports most of George W. Bush?s views. Hillary has lots of experience but I don?t think she is ready to lead our nation. Imagine her trying to talk to the leaders of the Islamic world? I wish we could have her husband back, but we can?t. Jennifer Harman and I have emailed Obama and asked what his position is on internet gaming. Hopefully we will get a response from his camp."

2+2 thread about Obama and poker:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=279842


Schwallie on 2+2 said it really well:

The main thing is that he is not against it. The republicans are actively working to completely ban us from playing poker. It is in the platform even. Obama likes poker, and is generally known to not be against it at least. He isn't going to give praises for it in the public, for it could be a big negative for him. Basically it will let Barney Frank et al. try to push legislation through without worrying about a veto from a Republican president.

The ignorant and the rich are republicans.

It makes sense.

On August 29 2008 20:14 TenBagger wrote: btw, I had a conversation with my friend's parents the other day at a BBQ. They are both very well educated, decent people. They are also extremely wealthy. They agree with obama on most of the issues but they said they were going to vote for mccain. I asked them why? They said that as much as they care about the environment and social justice, etc. its not worth $500,000 a year to them. That is how much less they are paying in taxes now than they did before bush. Rich people are republican, it makes sense.

Yeah, I run into that a lot too =

I think 500k is a pretty huge sum... I guess they're very rich. Here's how income taxes would change from how they are right now if each of them became prez:



Of course there are other taxes too that affect rich people, but overall most of em aren't getting any crazy hike under Obama. At the most they're going to go to where they were under Clinton.

More info on taxes here:
http://www.liquidpoker.net/blog/viewblog.php?id=541851

if obama wins the UIGEA might be lifted, and if that happens... bye bye fishy euro sites! all the american grinders will be unleashed! i have no idea why non-americans are rooting for obama...

ya bye bye fishy euro sites cuz everyone can get ez games on pokerstars

well obama is a pretty big favorite now

Let just hope the hate of all things Republican that allowed the Democrats to win the Congressional elections is still around and in full force so that Obama can win. McCain as president....brrrr

On August 29 2008 21:39 SugoGosu wrote:

sweet - I been looking for something with recent poll results.

well fuck obama one time.

if american gets the bush 2.0 we'll be super fucked imo. and even if we aren't fuck it. i want fishy sites.

if mccain gets elected, there is a pretty decent chance that sarah palin may at some point become president of the US.

This is a woman who believes creationism is a science and should be taught in schools:

"Palin was answering a question from the moderator near the conclusion of Wednesday night's televised debate on KAKM Channel 7 when she said, "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information."

http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/elections/story/8347904p-8243554c.html

She also is a firm believer that climate change is not caused by man:

http://achangeinthewind.typepad.com/a...nthewind/2008/08/sarah-palin-glo.html

WTF?!?!?!?!

What kind of world do we live in? Is this really the most powerful nation in the 21st century where the potential president is a doubter of science? The republicans have done nothing about global warming which threatens our very existence but they have enough time to go after poker. So fucking retarded.

americans, don't let us down on this one, pllllllllllllllllllllease

If this graph is legit,how the hell its still a flip between those two?wtf
Whats the abstention percentage?


average income

all the hardcore rednecks will vote McCain, no matter how low their income is.

Huge flip for us, its probably millions that we at lp can win much easier if the ban is lifted


fuck the world if McCain is elected
I will never understand how close to 50% of all americans can vote for the republican party

Too many americans are scared, stupid and ignorant flagwavers it seems -__-

massive brainwashing by bush administration since 9/11

On topic I doubt mass-mailing will have any impact on him whatsoever.

Then again I dunno shit.

man the democratic party wulda had a guaranteed win if obama is white

lol jr :D

i dont get it .. concidering McCain's previous actions how does anyone even think he has a shot to win the president spot?

On August 30 2008 10:14 Spitfiree wrote: i dont get it .. concidering McCain's previous actions how does anyone even think he has a shot to win the president spot?

He's a RICH WHITE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN, and in american politics that's all that really matters to people.

um, he's not that much of an evangelical

doesn't really matter, if obama gets elected, 50% chance joe biden becomes president since obama will just get assassinated in like 1yr.

I live in the south and work for firm containing 100% conservative republicans. 2 people openly broadcast Rush Limbaugh on their radios from the cubicles, another listens to some guy who is like Bill O'Reily, and half of them have Fox News.com set as their default homepage. Almost all of them have some sort of Bush bumper sticker tattooed to their car. Their weekends consist of hunting and fishing. You know what I hear 90% of them bitching about when it comes who to vote for? Just how much they hate democrats. They dont even focus on what their republican counterparts are supposed to be about, they just have such a personal hatred for anything liberal they cant stand the thought of democrats in power. They see all democrats as pussies who hug trees and give money to the poor and want to run away from a fight, etc etc etc. Just the other day I'm in the breakroom and some guy is reading an article in the paper about how some poor area of a neighborhood wants new sewer lines installed by the city, but they dont want to pay any taxes to cover installation. He just bursts out with "must be a democrat, always wanting something for nothing". Nobody was even talking about politics at the time. This is how they see anyone who is non-republican.

Then finally the rest of their decision making process comes out of pure selfishness and greed, how much of their 6 figure salary they can keep, how many new cards they can purchase and write off various taxes, how big of a house they can own, and how many towel heads the gov't can kill. They dont really give a fuck about anyone else or the world at large. They just live nestled in their own little world completely buffered from events that actually have an impact on things and use their vote in whatever means to benefit solely themselves.

On August 30 2008 12:50 hawking wrote: I live in the south and work for firm containing 100% conservative republicans. 2 people openly broadcast Rush Limbaugh on their radios from the cubicles, another listens to some guy who is like Bill O'Reily, and half of them have Fox News.com set as their default homepage. Almost all of them have some sort of Bush bumper sticker tattooed to their car. Their weekends consist of hunting and fishing. You know what I hear 90% of them bitching about when it comes who to vote for? Just how much they hate democrats. They dont even focus on what their republican counterparts are supposed to be about, they just have such a personal hatred for anything liberal they cant stand the thought of democrats in power. They see all democrats as pussies who hug trees and give money to the poor and want to run away from a fight, etc etc etc. Just the other day I'm in the breakroom and some guy is reading an article in the paper about how some poor area of a neighborhood wants new sewer lines installed by the city, but they dont want to pay any taxes to cover installation. He just bursts out with "must be a democrat, always wanting something for nothing". Nobody was even talking about politics at the time. This is how they see anyone who is non-republican. Then finally the rest of their decision making process comes out of pure selfishness and greed, how much of their 6 figure salary they can keep, how many new cards they can purchase and write off various taxes, how big of a house they can own, and how many towel heads the gov't can kill. They dont really give a fuck about anyone else or the world at large. They just live nestled in their own little world completely buffered from events that actually have an impact on things and use their vote in whatever means to benefit solely themselves.

scary

--- Nuked ---

On August 30 2008 13:00 k2o4 wrote: Show nested quote + On August 30 2008 12:50 hawking wrote: I live in the south and work for firm containing 100% conservative republicans. 2 people openly broadcast Rush Limbaugh on their radios from the cubicles, another listens to some guy who is like Bill O'Reily, and half of them have Fox News.com set as their default homepage. Almost all of them have some sort of Bush bumper sticker tattooed to their car. Their weekends consist of hunting and fishing. You know what I hear 90% of them bitching about when it comes who to vote for? Just how much they hate democrats. They dont even focus on what their republican counterparts are supposed to be about, they just have such a personal hatred for anything liberal they cant stand the thought of democrats in power. They see all democrats as pussies who hug trees and give money to the poor and want to run away from a fight, etc etc etc. Just the other day I'm in the breakroom and some guy is reading an article in the paper about how some poor area of a neighborhood wants new sewer lines installed by the city, but they dont want to pay any taxes to cover installation. He just bursts out with "must be a democrat, always wanting something for nothing". Nobody was even talking about politics at the time. This is how they see anyone who is non-republican. Then finally the rest of their decision making process comes out of pure selfishness and greed, how much of their 6 figure salary they can keep, how many new cards they can purchase and write off various taxes, how big of a house they can own, and how many towel heads the gov't can kill. They dont really give a fuck about anyone else or the world at large. They just live nestled in their own little world completely buffered from events that actually have an impact on things and use their vote in whatever means to benefit solely themselves. scary

ditto

My buddy used to work at a hotel. We live near O'hare airport so there's a ton of rich businessmen on layovers stayin at the hotels. So one day, due to some technical error all the Fox channels went down in the rooms, during that time he said 90% of the people stayin in the hotel called the desk to complain that they can't get the news. Cuz, you know, God forbid they have to watch a channel that isn't "fair and balanced" -_-

All the people asking how can McCain win this, realize this republican's base along w/ poor hicks who have the same exact mindset. They control enough of the media directly to brainwash people into voting for them, and the rest of the media isn't exactly Obama friendly. All you hear on the news in the US is how Obama's middle name is Hussein and how he went to a Muslim school as a child. Basically, any meaningless information they can twist to paint Obama as a terrorist/Muslim/socialist/inexperienced they will use relentlessly. On the other hand, all you hear about McCain is how he's an American hero POW, and a "maverick", meaning a moderate republican, which at this point is a total lie. This is how republicans can continue to hold on to their base of voters.

To find out how they get the other ~10% they need just google diebold.

American LPers,

convince as many frieds as you can to vote for Obama plz plz pretty plz

for our sake omg

To any curious non-Americans click here for a decent analysis of the presidential election based on data from the last two elections.

On August 30 2008 12:03 thewh00sel wrote: doesn't really matter, if obama gets elected, 50% chance joe biden becomes president since obama will just get assassinated in like 1yr.

lol so fucked up but probably true

what is k2o4's source on that graph? i'm not 100% sure that's accurate.

ps, lets not make this a hate on republicans thread, but stick to the actual issues.

On August 30 2008 14:24 TimDawg wrote: Show nested quote + On August 30 2008 12:03 thewh00sel wrote: doesn't really matter, if obama gets elected, 50% chance joe biden becomes president since obama will just get assassinated in like 1yr. lol so fucked up but probably true

and probably by some redneck from bumblefuck, georgia

Having Obama or McCain elected will not change the poker issue one way or the other. It is just not a politically important topic. It would create more harm than good to either candidate.

I'm for McCain personally.

u vote for republicans Maynard ? *vomit*

On August 30 2008 16:39 VanDerMeyde wrote: u vote for republicans Maynard ? *vomit*

maynard ur retarded if voting for the republicans sorry

Anyone for mccain is just asking for more trouble for the US

the dude will lead us into battle with other nations and if the general us public thinks 9/11 was bad wait until we get nuked or some shit.

+ if there is a draft im moving and that will be my last straw

On August 30 2008 16:39 VanDerMeyde wrote: u vote for republicans Maynard ? *vomit*

Na I'm not going to vote. I think both candidates are very bad. McCain is probably less so than Obama.

On August 30 2008 14:52 rS.Wisdom[9] wrote: what is k2o4's source on that graph? i'm not 100% sure that's accurate.

It's a visual representation of a chart I found on snopes.com which I think they got from taxpolicycenter.org. Here are the links:

http://snopes.com/politics/obama/taxes.asp
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/UploadedPDF/411693_CandidateTaxPlans.pdf

On August 30 2008 16:27 Maynard! wrote: Having Obama or McCain elected will not change the poker issue one way or the other. It is just not a politically important topic. It would create more harm than good to either candidate.

Neither of them is going to be some sort of huge open supporter. But like I posted earlier, McCain is much more likely to veto any bill getting rid of the UIGEA than Obama, and democrats in power overall gives a better chance of good legislation for poker, considering that the republicans are openly attacking us and have even made it part of the platform to ban poker. Obama also has an understanding of poker and is much more likely to understand the poker as a game of skill argument, as he is a poker player. So while electing Obama doesn't mean we get instant legal online poker, our chances are better with Obama.

All these poker players voting democrats, no wonder why there are so many fish

On August 30 2008 17:21 Maynard! wrote: Show nested quote + On August 30 2008 16:39 VanDerMeyde wrote: u vote for republicans Maynard ? *vomit* Na I'm not going to vote. I think both candidates are very bad. McCain is probably less so than Obama.

One thing I don't understand is why there are so many people who say "both candidates are very bad." I understand McCain is horrible, but what's so bad about Obama?

On August 31 2008 00:17 Pacifist wrote: Show nested quote + On August 30 2008 17:21 Maynard! wrote:   On August 30 2008 16:39 VanDerMeyde wrote: u vote for republicans Maynard ? *vomit* Na I'm not going to vote. I think both candidates are very bad. McCain is probably less so than Obama. One thing I don't understand is why there are so many people who say "both candidates are very bad." I understand McCain is horrible, but what's so bad about Obama?

His tax plans would harm me greatly. Otherwise I might change my tune.

u should concider all the + & -'ses about both candidates and see who s better

if u are vote is based on 1 argument u r a bad voter

On August 31 2008 00:17 Pacifist wrote: Show nested quote + On August 30 2008 17:21 Maynard! wrote:   On August 30 2008 16:39 VanDerMeyde wrote: u vote for republicans Maynard ? *vomit* Na I'm not going to vote. I think both candidates are very bad. McCain is probably less so than Obama. One thing I don't understand is why there are so many people who say "both candidates are very bad." I understand McCain is horrible, but what's so bad about Obama?

I think both candidates are relatively good and we should appreciate it while we can. I mean 2012 might be Hillary vs Jeb Bush or something :

On August 31 2008 08:42 NMcNasty wrote: Show nested quote + On August 31 2008 00:17 Pacifist wrote:   On August 30 2008 17:21 Maynard! wrote:   On August 30 2008 16:39 VanDerMeyde wrote: u vote for republicans Maynard ? *vomit* Na I'm not going to vote. I think both candidates are very bad. McCain is probably less so than Obama. One thing I don't understand is why there are so many people who say "both candidates are very bad." I understand McCain is horrible, but what's so bad about Obama? I think both candidates are relatively good and we should appreciate it while we can. I mean 2012 might be Hillary vs Jeb Bush or something :

Except that this would be impossible considering Obama or McCain will be running for a second term in that year... lol. Has a President ever stepped down after just one term in office and not run for a second term? Just wondering since I don't know U.S. history that well.

Edit: IMO both candidates are pretty good although now McCain seems to be fading into the typical republican type stance. Although anything is an improvement on Bush I think if McCain won he would probably do a good job even though I'm for sure cheering for Obama to take it down. At least McCain us unafraid to be made fun of and has appeared on Jon Stewart's show many times to talk issues.

On August 31 2008 00:17 Pacifist wrote: Show nested quote + On August 30 2008 17:21 Maynard! wrote:   On August 30 2008 16:39 VanDerMeyde wrote: u vote for republicans Maynard ? *vomit* Na I'm not going to vote. I think both candidates are very bad. McCain is probably less so than Obama. One thing I don't understand is why there are so many people who say "both candidates are very bad." I understand McCain is horrible, but what's so bad about Obama?

he paints a very utopian picture of what is goals are, id be surprised if he follows through with 30% of what he says now, running for president is not free obv
but then again the war policy of the bush adm really hurt everyone except bush, so yeah fuck bush really.

I'm sure its happened but not in my lifetime, but i dont see either candidate surviving for a second term (in both the politcal and literal sense).

Both of the presidential candidates are stupid. People and society in general are stupid. My dad votes democrate b/c he's in a union, doesn't care about any other issue, when he votes, he checks every name who is a democrat. I asked my mom one day that if hitler was a democrat if dad would vote for him... she didn't answer. So to everyone he says Republicans are closed minded idiots...guess what, that exist's in dem's too.

Basically we have a communist and a war monger running for president.
Obama (communist) wants to make doctors government employees, and wants universal health care, which obv has been a failure in every other country that has attempted it. A) We can't afford it, obv, when we spend $2,000,000,000 (billion) a WEEK on a ridiculous war. Oh don't forget all the other government programs he would spend money on. and B) there would be long long long long long lines waiting for a terrible doctor. Now that all doctors would be paid the same amount of money, this would create no competition in the economy. The guy who got drunk every day and never showed up for class, and cheating was the only way he was able to graduate would make the exacte same amount of money that the man who studied his ass off and graduated valedictorian of his class. Competition is what makes the economy work. Thats why monopolies are illegal. If microsoft just ran the world, and it was the only product, then everyone would have a shitty OS. But b/c of competition, we have Unix, which is obv much much better. So now microsoft has to make a better product. Getting back to my doctor point, why would you want to risk something so import as your health?? If all doctors are the same, its like a 50/50 shot at getting a good doctor?? It's a free country right? Let us be free. Let us make our own choices, let us decide on what doctor we can see, let them charge whatever they want to charge. Thats the whole reason we left England and created our own country in the first place.
While we are on the subject of creating countries, i might as well talk about guns. You realize guns are what created America, right?? Guns brought democracy to America. If you give your weapons up to the government, they are in COMPLETE control of you. They own you. You think Fidel Castro let's his citizens have guns?? You think Hitler let the jews have guns? NO. I will NEVER let the government control me like a puppet. It's more than self defense. If the government becomes corrupt, and the citizens cannot uprise, than evil wins. Taking away guns from the citizens takes away democracy. Every so often, government must be refreshed.

McCain (war monger) - Obviously, i don't want to see a war monger as president. We're in a stupid war, in a ridiculously stupid part of the world, we're there has been war for over 2,000 years. Why the hell we think we can be a peacekeeper in that part of the world, i will never understand. If you ask me, i think we should be completely isolated from all conflicts. And you know what? If two countries are fighting, or there is an uprising in a part of the world and there are innocent citizens being murdered by the government, hell no we shouldn't give them food and water. It's just going to piss someone off, so why bother starting shit??? Just trade and get supplies you need with anyone you want to. America helps wayyyyyy too many people out. I don't understand why we are so friendly... A tsunami hits indonesia and we give them like 50 billion dollars. I don't get it. What do we get in return?? more hatred from other countries. Why do we give countries that live in a desert food??? They can't grow their own food, they live in a desert. So why don't we just either A) fuck it they'll figure it out or B) MOVE THEM OUT OF THE DESERT. There is a section 8 house in my neighborhood. You know what cars they have?? A new explorer, a chrystler 300, and 2 others. 2 people live in the house, they have 4 very nice cars, and are getting welfare. You know what they do all day?? COOK METH. Thanks democrates!!!!! Money that i WORKED MY ASS OFF FOR, came out of my check, and is now paying for 2 black people to cook meth in my own neighborhood. Don't get me wrong - Welfare is great for people who actually need it. People with no legs b/c they got cut off at their factory they use to work in deserve all the welfare in the fucking world. Black people that cook meth all day, and need money to buy they gold grillz for they '89 caddy, they dont need no welfare.


One day, i think i'm going to run for president. I bet i'll be one of the best presidents the USA has ever had. I'm a moderate, i look at both sides of a debate, and decide what to do based solely on whats best for the ENTIRE NATION, whether you like it or not. I believe in the constitution which says every man is created equal. I will support democracy and bring the nation back to a state in which the forefathers of the country would be proud of. No one realizes it, but this country has changed dramatically from where it was. George Washington and James Madison Benjamin Franklin John handcock, and every other man that sacrificed everything to create this country would be SOO PISSED OFF at where this country has gone.

Basically, if i was running for president, i would be for Unions, Equal rights (gay marriage), free economy, death penalty, legalization of pot for medicinal purposes, The Great Wall of Texas to keep mexicans out, unless they go through the process to legally get in obv, Free speach, right to privacy which has been OHHH SOO violated lately with the patriot act, I would stay out of other countries business because you're problems are not worth american lives. The only time i would go to war would be if our country was attacked. I would encourage trade, i would discourage downsizing... for example a company makes 1/4 billion every year and they want to make more money so they move to mexico so they can hire mexicans who will work for a dollar an hour instead of the 10 dollars an hour we want...

I don't know. Everyone here thinks and crazy with my political ideas, but i know i'm right...people who disagree with me are ignorant. And i'm seriously thinking about running for president when i am eligable. I will try my hardest to show people why my thinking is correct. Every mind i change is one more mind that thinks for correctly.


***READ MY QUOTE
below this post... probably the funniest/stupidest thing i've ever heard.
"Universal health care is not communist, even cuba has universal health care."

For everyone who doesn't know, which most people on here are ignorant, Cuba IS a communist country, obv. Thats why the argument is so funny/stupid.

--- Nuked ---

lol u are an ignorant moron but i guess you are like 16 or something so ur forgiven

21...and i'm not some redneck hick from the country in a town in west texas with a population of 7 who bangs their cousin like everyone on here prolly thinks. i'm from Arlington, Tx, i am educated, and no one knows whats best for them, so i have to do it for you since everyone's ignorant and selfish

lol u funny 8four0

On August 31 2008 12:02 eightfourO wrote: 21...and i'm not some redneck hick from the country in a town in west texas with a population of 7 who bangs their cousin like everyone on here prolly thinks. i'm from Arlington, Tx, i am educated, and no one knows whats best for them, so i have to do it for you since everyone's ignorant and selfish

does not compute.

On August 31 2008 10:58 devon06atX wrote: wow eightfour, hate to say it, but you're fucking ridiculous

you took the words right out of my mind lol

On August 31 2008 10:06 eightfourO wrote: Both of the presidential candidates are stupid. People and society in general are stupid. My dad votes democrate b/c he's in a union, doesn't care about any other issue, when he votes, he checks every name who is a democrat. I asked my mom one day that if hitler was a democrat if dad would vote for him... she didn't answer. So to everyone he says Republicans are closed minded idiots...guess what, that exist's in dem's too. Basically we have a communist and a war monger running for president. Obama (communist) wants to make doctors government employees, and wants universal health care, which obv has been a failure in every other country that has attempted it. A) We can't afford it, obv, when we spend $2,000,000,000 (billion) a WEEK on a ridiculous war. Oh don't forget all the other government programs he would spend money on. and B) there would be long long long long long lines waiting for a terrible doctor. Now that all doctors would be paid the same amount of money, this would create no competition in the economy. The guy who got drunk every day and never showed up for class, and cheating was the only way he was able to graduate would make the exacte same amount of money that the man who studied his ass off and graduated valedictorian of his class. Competition is what makes the economy work. Thats why monopolies are illegal. If microsoft just ran the world, and it was the only product, then everyone would have a shitty OS. But b/c of competition, we have Unix, which is obv much much better. So now microsoft has to make a better product. Getting back to my doctor point, why would you want to risk something so import as your health?? If all doctors are the same, its like a 50/50 shot at getting a good doctor?? It's a free country right? Let us be free. Let us make our own choices, let us decide on what doctor we can see, let them charge whatever they want to charge. Thats the whole reason we left England and created our own country in the first place. While we are on the subject of creating countries, i might as well talk about guns. You realize guns are what created America, right?? Guns brought democracy to America. If you give your weapons up to the government, they are in COMPLETE control of you. They own you. You think Fidel Castro let's his citizens have guns?? You think Hitler let the jews have guns? NO. I will NEVER let the government control me like a puppet. It's more than self defense. If the government becomes corrupt, and the citizens cannot uprise, than evil wins. Taking away guns from the citizens takes away democracy. Every so often, government must be refreshed. McCain (war monger) - Obviously, i don't want to see a war monger as president. We're in a stupid war, in a ridiculously stupid part of the world, we're there has been war for over 2,000 years. Why the hell we think we can be a peacekeeper in that part of the world, i will never understand. If you ask me, i think we should be completely isolated from all conflicts. And you know what? If two countries are fighting, or there is an uprising in a part of the world and there are innocent citizens being murdered by the government, hell no we shouldn't give them food and water. It's just going to piss someone off, so why bother starting shit??? Just trade and get supplies you need with anyone you want to. America helps wayyyyyy too many people out. I don't understand why we are so friendly... A tsunami hits indonesia and we give them like 50 billion dollars. I don't get it. What do we get in return?? more hatred from other countries. Why do we give countries that live in a desert food??? They can't grow their own food, they live in a desert. So why don't we just either A) fuck it they'll figure it out or B) MOVE THEM OUT OF THE DESERT. There is a section 8 house in my neighborhood. You know what cars they have?? A new explorer, a chrystler 300, and 2 others. 2 people live in the house, they have 4 very nice cars, and are getting welfare. You know what they do all day?? COOK METH. Thanks democrates!!!!! Money that i WORKED MY ASS OFF FOR, came out of my check, and is now paying for 2 black people to cook meth in my own neighborhood. Don't get me wrong - Welfare is great for people who actually need it. People with no legs b/c they got cut off at their factory they use to work in deserve all the welfare in the fucking world. Black people that cook meth all day, and need money to buy they gold grillz for they '89 caddy, they dont need no welfare. One day, i think i'm going to run for president. I bet i'll be one of the best presidents the USA has ever had. I'm a moderate, i look at both sides of a debate, and decide what to do based solely on whats best for the ENTIRE NATION, whether you like it or not. I believe in the constitution which says every man is created equal. I will support democracy and bring the nation back to a state in which the forefathers of the country would be proud of. No one realizes it, but this country has changed dramatically from where it was. George Washington and James Madison Benjamin Franklin John handcock, and every other man that sacrificed everything to create this country would be SOO PISSED OFF at where this country has gone. Basically, if i was running for president, i would be for Unions, Equal rights (gay marriage), free economy, death penalty, legalization of pot for medicinal purposes, The Great Wall of Texas to keep mexicans out, unless they go through the process to legally get in obv, Free speach, right to privacy which has been OHHH SOO violated lately with the patriot act, I would stay out of other countries business because you're problems are not worth american lives. The only time i would go to war would be if our country was attacked. I would encourage trade, i would discourage downsizing... for example a company makes 1/4 billion every year and they want to make more money so they move to mexico so they can hire mexicans who will work for a dollar an hour instead of the 10 dollars an hour we want... I don't know. Everyone here thinks and crazy with my political ideas, but i know i'm right...people who disagree with me are ignorant. And i'm seriously thinking about running for president when i am eligable. I will try my hardest to show people why my thinking is correct. Every mind i change is one more mind that thinks for correctly. ***READ MY QUOTE below this post... probably the funniest/stupidest thing i've ever heard. "Universal health care is not communist, even cuba has universal health care." For everyone who doesn't know, which most people on here are ignorant, Cuba IS a communist country, obv. Thats why the argument is so funny/stupid.

My god, I dunno if that rant even deserves a response. Listen, I personally think the NRA and this whole gun argument as a protection of our constitutional rights is pure bullshit, BUT... at least I can see the point that the gun lovers are making.

However, the US health care system is universally understood to be the most inefficient health care system in the world. There is no debate here, it is basically a proven fact and the fact that you are saying otherwise just shows how little you've actually researched the topic.

On August 31 2008 18:50 TenBagger wrote: However, the US health care system is universally understood to be the most inefficient health care system in the world. There is no debate here, it is basically a proven fact and the fact that you are saying otherwise just shows how little you've actually researched the topic.

Umm, yea it's actually quite a bit more complicated than that - and the fact that you're stating this so matter-of-factly shows how little you've actually researched the topic.

I've actually done quite a bit of reading and research into this topic. And I never said that it wasn't complicated, becuase you're absolutely right, it is quite a complex issue. However, if there is anything that I said that you disagree with, or if there is a particular topic that you'd like to discuss, I'll be very happy to carry on a civilized discussion.

I stand by my point that the US gets the least bang for the buck for medical care. As to whether a universal health care policy such as canada's or the UK's would be better, I certainly think so but I agree that is a very debatable point and that the issues are quite complex. However, the main issue for me is that the US spends per capita way more than any other country in the world and we still have roughly 50 million people that are uninsured, with a large percentage of those going without basic medical care. That to me is inexcusable and while I agree it is extremely difficult to implement a solution in the US politcal environment, with insurance companies, big pharma, HMOs, medicare and many other interests to balance out, I can say wholeheartedly that the system needs to be fixed.

It is an absolute disgrace that the US spends so much on health care and there are so many people that goes without. That is not communism but basic humanity and the overwhelming majority of people in the bastion of capitalism called the USA agree that something drastic needs to be done.

On August 30 2008 20:54 Babs wrote: All these poker players voting democrats, no wonder why there are so many fish

lol gold!

On August 31 2008 18:02 Stim_Abuser wrote: Show nested quote + On August 31 2008 10:06 eightfourO wrote: Both of the presidential candidates are stupid. People and society in general are stupid. My dad votes democrate b/c he's in a union, doesn't care about any other issue, when he votes, he checks every name who is a democrat. I asked my mom one day that if hitler was a democrat if dad would vote for him... she didn't answer. So to everyone he says Republicans are closed minded idiots...guess what, that exist's in dem's too. Basically we have a communist and a war monger running for president. Obama (communist) wants to make doctors government employees, and wants universal health care, which obv has been a failure in every other country that has attempted it. A) We can't afford it, obv, when we spend $2,000,000,000 (billion) a WEEK on a ridiculous war. Oh don't forget all the other government programs he would spend money on. and B) there would be long long long long long lines waiting for a terrible doctor. Now that all doctors would be paid the same amount of money, this would create no competition in the economy. The guy who got drunk every day and never showed up for class, and cheating was the only way he was able to graduate would make the exacte same amount of money that the man who studied his ass off and graduated valedictorian of his class. Competition is what makes the economy work. Thats why monopolies are illegal. If microsoft just ran the world, and it was the only product, then everyone would have a shitty OS. But b/c of competition, we have Unix, which is obv much much better. So now microsoft has to make a better product. Getting back to my doctor point, why would you want to risk something so import as your health?? If all doctors are the same, its like a 50/50 shot at getting a good doctor?? It's a free country right? Let us be free. Let us make our own choices, let us decide on what doctor we can see, let them charge whatever they want to charge. Thats the whole reason we left England and created our own country in the first place. While we are on the subject of creating countries, i might as well talk about guns. You realize guns are what created America, right?? Guns brought democracy to America. If you give your weapons up to the government, they are in COMPLETE control of you. They own you. You think Fidel Castro let's his citizens have guns?? You think Hitler let the jews have guns? NO. I will NEVER let the government control me like a puppet. It's more than self defense. If the government becomes corrupt, and the citizens cannot uprise, than evil wins. Taking away guns from the citizens takes away democracy. Every so often, government must be refreshed. McCain (war monger) - Obviously, i don't want to see a war monger as president. We're in a stupid war, in a ridiculously stupid part of the world, we're there has been war for over 2,000 years. Why the hell we think we can be a peacekeeper in that part of the world, i will never understand. If you ask me, i think we should be completely isolated from all conflicts. And you know what? If two countries are fighting, or there is an uprising in a part of the world and there are innocent citizens being murdered by the government, hell no we shouldn't give them food and water. It's just going to piss someone off, so why bother starting shit??? Just trade and get supplies you need with anyone you want to. America helps wayyyyyy too many people out. I don't understand why we are so friendly... A tsunami hits indonesia and we give them like 50 billion dollars. I don't get it. What do we get in return?? more hatred from other countries. Why do we give countries that live in a desert food??? They can't grow their own food, they live in a desert. So why don't we just either A) fuck it they'll figure it out or B) MOVE THEM OUT OF THE DESERT. There is a section 8 house in my neighborhood. You know what cars they have?? A new explorer, a chrystler 300, and 2 others. 2 people live in the house, they have 4 very nice cars, and are getting welfare. You know what they do all day?? COOK METH. Thanks democrates!!!!! Money that i WORKED MY ASS OFF FOR, came out of my check, and is now paying for 2 black people to cook meth in my own neighborhood. Don't get me wrong - Welfare is great for people who actually need it. People with no legs b/c they got cut off at their factory they use to work in deserve all the welfare in the fucking world. Black people that cook meth all day, and need money to buy they gold grillz for they '89 caddy, they dont need no welfare. One day, i think i'm going to run for president. I bet i'll be one of the best presidents the USA has ever had. I'm a moderate, i look at both sides of a debate, and decide what to do based solely on whats best for the ENTIRE NATION, whether you like it or not. I believe in the constitution which says every man is created equal. I will support democracy and bring the nation back to a state in which the forefathers of the country would be proud of. No one realizes it, but this country has changed dramatically from where it was. George Washington and James Madison Benjamin Franklin John handcock, and every other man that sacrificed everything to create this country would be SOO PISSED OFF at where this country has gone. Basically, if i was running for president, i would be for Unions, Equal rights (gay marriage), free economy, death penalty, legalization of pot for medicinal purposes, The Great Wall of Texas to keep mexicans out, unless they go through the process to legally get in obv, Free speach, right to privacy which has been OHHH SOO violated lately with the patriot act, I would stay out of other countries business because you're problems are not worth american lives. The only time i would go to war would be if our country was attacked. I would encourage trade, i would discourage downsizing... for example a company makes 1/4 billion every year and they want to make more money so they move to mexico so they can hire mexicans who will work for a dollar an hour instead of the 10 dollars an hour we want... I don't know. Everyone here thinks and crazy with my political ideas, but i know i'm right...people who disagree with me are ignorant. And i'm seriously thinking about running for president when i am eligable. I will try my hardest to show people why my thinking is correct. Every mind i change is one more mind that thinks for correctly. ***READ MY QUOTE below this post... probably the funniest/stupidest thing i've ever heard. "Universal health care is not communist, even cuba has universal health care." For everyone who doesn't know, which most people on here are ignorant, Cuba IS a communist country, obv. Thats why the argument is so funny/stupid.

On August 31 2008 10:06 eightfourO wrote: Both of the presidential candidates are stupid. People and society in general are stupid. My dad votes democrate b/c he's in a union, doesn't care about any other issue, when he votes, he checks every name who is a democrat. I asked my mom one day that if hitler was a democrat if dad would vote for him... she didn't answer. So to everyone he says Republicans are closed minded idiots...guess what, that exist's in dem's too. Basically we have a communist and a war monger running for president. Obama (communist) wants to make doctors government employees, and wants universal health care, which obv has been a failure in every other country that has attempted it. A) We can't afford it, obv, when we spend $2,000,000,000 (billion) a WEEK on a ridiculous war. Oh don't forget all the other government programs he would spend money on. and B) there would be long long long long long lines waiting for a terrible doctor. Now that all doctors would be paid the same amount of money, this would create no competition in the economy. The guy who got drunk every day and never showed up for class, and cheating was the only way he was able to graduate would make the exacte same amount of money that the man who studied his ass off and graduated valedictorian of his class. Competition is what makes the economy work. Thats why monopolies are illegal. If microsoft just ran the world, and it was the only product, then everyone would have a shitty OS. But b/c of competition, we have Unix, which is obv much much better. So now microsoft has to make a better product. Getting back to my doctor point, why would you want to risk something so import as your health?? If all doctors are the same, its like a 50/50 shot at getting a good doctor?? It's a free country right? Let us be free. Let us make our own choices, let us decide on what doctor we can see, let them charge whatever they want to charge. Thats the whole reason we left England and created our own country in the first place. While we are on the subject of creating countries, i might as well talk about guns. You realize guns are what created America, right?? Guns brought democracy to America. If you give your weapons up to the government, they are in COMPLETE control of you. They own you. You think Fidel Castro let's his citizens have guns?? You think Hitler let the jews have guns? NO. I will NEVER let the government control me like a puppet. It's more than self defense. If the government becomes corrupt, and the citizens cannot uprise, than evil wins. Taking away guns from the citizens takes away democracy. Every so often, government must be refreshed. McCain (war monger) - Obviously, i don't want to see a war monger as president. We're in a stupid war, in a ridiculously stupid part of the world, we're there has been war for over 2,000 years. Why the hell we think we can be a peacekeeper in that part of the world, i will never understand. If you ask me, i think we should be completely isolated from all conflicts. And you know what? If two countries are fighting, or there is an uprising in a part of the world and there are innocent citizens being murdered by the government, hell no we shouldn't give them food and water. It's just going to piss someone off, so why bother starting shit??? Just trade and get supplies you need with anyone you want to. America helps wayyyyyy too many people out. I don't understand why we are so friendly... A tsunami hits indonesia and we give them like 50 billion dollars. I don't get it. What do we get in return?? more hatred from other countries. Why do we give countries that live in a desert food??? They can't grow their own food, they live in a desert. So why don't we just either A) fuck it they'll figure it out or B) MOVE THEM OUT OF THE DESERT. There is a section 8 house in my neighborhood. You know what cars they have?? A new explorer, a chrystler 300, and 2 others. 2 people live in the house, they have 4 very nice cars, and are getting welfare. You know what they do all day?? COOK METH. Thanks democrates!!!!! Money that i WORKED MY ASS OFF FOR, came out of my check, and is now paying for 2 black people to cook meth in my own neighborhood. Don't get me wrong - Welfare is great for people who actually need it. People with no legs b/c they got cut off at their factory they use to work in deserve all the welfare in the fucking world. Black people that cook meth all day, and need money to buy they gold grillz for they '89 caddy, they dont need no welfare. One day, i think i'm going to run for president. I bet i'll be one of the best presidents the USA has ever had. I'm a moderate, i look at both sides of a debate, and decide what to do based solely on whats best for the ENTIRE NATION, whether you like it or not. I believe in the constitution which says every man is created equal. I will support democracy and bring the nation back to a state in which the forefathers of the country would be proud of. No one realizes it, but this country has changed dramatically from where it was. George Washington and James Madison Benjamin Franklin John handcock, and every other man that sacrificed everything to create this country would be SOO PISSED OFF at where this country has gone. Basically, if i was running for president, i would be for Unions, Equal rights (gay marriage), free economy, death penalty, legalization of pot for medicinal purposes, The Great Wall of Texas to keep mexicans out, unless they go through the process to legally get in obv, Free speach, right to privacy which has been OHHH SOO violated lately with the patriot act, I would stay out of other countries business because you're problems are not worth american lives. The only time i would go to war would be if our country was attacked. I would encourage trade, i would discourage downsizing... for example a company makes 1/4 billion every year and they want to make more money so they move to mexico so they can hire mexicans who will work for a dollar an hour instead of the 10 dollars an hour we want... I don't know. Everyone here thinks and crazy with my political ideas, but i know i'm right...people who disagree with me are ignorant. And i'm seriously thinking about running for president when i am eligable. I will try my hardest to show people why my thinking is correct. Every mind i change is one more mind that thinks for correctly. ***READ MY QUOTE below this post... probably the funniest/stupidest thing i've ever heard. "Universal health care is not communist, even cuba has universal health care." For everyone who doesn't know, which most people on here are ignorant, Cuba IS a communist country, obv. Thats why the argument is so funny/stupid.

wow
if you are not 15 years old you are clearly retarded.
I mean this is actually awful even for a 15 year old

and that brilliant "communist vs war freak" stretch so that you can place yourself in the middle of the dillema and prepare your way to becoming president of the US

wow

edit: just saw that you're 21 yo ,amazing.
good luck with the elections

WOWOWOW, Eightfour, you almost made my head asplode with that big wall of crap there...

Btw, I clearly believe that McCain is an idiot so therefor gogogo Obama and let's keep that little sprankle of hope that Obama getting elected make the UIGEA changed since he won't veto a change of it...

N0rthf4ce for president anyone ?? First afro-american, first Asian would obviously be awesome, let's be multicultural here !!! (Got to learn that in Netherlands, half our country consists of people from Turkey and Morocco lol)

On September 01 2008 10:17 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On August 31 2008 10:06 eightfourO wrote: Both of the presidential candidates are stupid. People and society in general are stupid. My dad votes democrate b/c he's in a union, doesn't care about any other issue, when he votes, he checks every name who is a democrat. I asked my mom one day that if hitler was a democrat if dad would vote for him... she didn't answer. So to everyone he says Republicans are closed minded idiots...guess what, that exist's in dem's too. Basically we have a communist and a war monger running for president. Obama (communist) wants to make doctors government employees, and wants universal health care, which obv has been a failure in every other country that has attempted it. A) We can't afford it, obv, when we spend $2,000,000,000 (billion) a WEEK on a ridiculous war. Oh don't forget all the other government programs he would spend money on. and B) there would be long long long long long lines waiting for a terrible doctor. Now that all doctors would be paid the same amount of money, this would create no competition in the economy. The guy who got drunk every day and never showed up for class, and cheating was the only way he was able to graduate would make the exacte same amount of money that the man who studied his ass off and graduated valedictorian of his class. Competition is what makes the economy work. Thats why monopolies are illegal. If microsoft just ran the world, and it was the only product, then everyone would have a shitty OS. But b/c of competition, we have Unix, which is obv much much better. So now microsoft has to make a better product. Getting back to my doctor point, why would you want to risk something so import as your health?? If all doctors are the same, its like a 50/50 shot at getting a good doctor?? It's a free country right? Let us be free. Let us make our own choices, let us decide on what doctor we can see, let them charge whatever they want to charge. Thats the whole reason we left England and created our own country in the first place. While we are on the subject of creating countries, i might as well talk about guns. You realize guns are what created America, right?? Guns brought democracy to America. If you give your weapons up to the government, they are in COMPLETE control of you. They own you. You think Fidel Castro let's his citizens have guns?? You think Hitler let the jews have guns? NO. I will NEVER let the government control me like a puppet. It's more than self defense. If the government becomes corrupt, and the citizens cannot uprise, than evil wins. Taking away guns from the citizens takes away democracy. Every so often, government must be refreshed. McCain (war monger) - Obviously, i don't want to see a war monger as president. We're in a stupid war, in a ridiculously stupid part of the world, we're there has been war for over 2,000 years. Why the hell we think we can be a peacekeeper in that part of the world, i will never understand. If you ask me, i think we should be completely isolated from all conflicts. And you know what? If two countries are fighting, or there is an uprising in a part of the world and there are innocent citizens being murdered by the government, hell no we shouldn't give them food and water. It's just going to piss someone off, so why bother starting shit??? Just trade and get supplies you need with anyone you want to. America helps wayyyyyy too many people out. I don't understand why we are so friendly... A tsunami hits indonesia and we give them like 50 billion dollars. I don't get it. What do we get in return?? more hatred from other countries. Why do we give countries that live in a desert food??? They can't grow their own food, they live in a desert. So why don't we just either A) fuck it they'll figure it out or B) MOVE THEM OUT OF THE DESERT. There is a section 8 house in my neighborhood. You know what cars they have?? A new explorer, a chrystler 300, and 2 others. 2 people live in the house, they have 4 very nice cars, and are getting welfare. You know what they do all day?? COOK METH. Thanks democrates!!!!! Money that i WORKED MY ASS OFF FOR, came out of my check, and is now paying for 2 black people to cook meth in my own neighborhood. Don't get me wrong - Welfare is great for people who actually need it. People with no legs b/c they got cut off at their factory they use to work in deserve all the welfare in the fucking world. Black people that cook meth all day, and need money to buy they gold grillz for they '89 caddy, they dont need no welfare. One day, i think i'm going to run for president. I bet i'll be one of the best presidents the USA has ever had. I'm a moderate, i look at both sides of a debate, and decide what to do based solely on whats best for the ENTIRE NATION, whether you like it or not. I believe in the constitution which says every man is created equal. I will support democracy and bring the nation back to a state in which the forefathers of the country would be proud of. No one realizes it, but this country has changed dramatically from where it was. George Washington and James Madison Benjamin Franklin John handcock, and every other man that sacrificed everything to create this country would be SOO PISSED OFF at where this country has gone. Basically, if i was running for president, i would be for Unions, Equal rights (gay marriage), free economy, death penalty, legalization of pot for medicinal purposes, The Great Wall of Texas to keep mexicans out, unless they go through the process to legally get in obv, Free speach, right to privacy which has been OHHH SOO violated lately with the patriot act, I would stay out of other countries business because you're problems are not worth american lives. The only time i would go to war would be if our country was attacked. I would encourage trade, i would discourage downsizing... for example a company makes 1/4 billion every year and they want to make more money so they move to mexico so they can hire mexicans who will work for a dollar an hour instead of the 10 dollars an hour we want... I don't know. Everyone here thinks and crazy with my political ideas, but i know i'm right...people who disagree with me are ignorant. And i'm seriously thinking about running for president when i am eligable. I will try my hardest to show people why my thinking is correct. Every mind i change is one more mind that thinks for correctly. ***READ MY QUOTE below this post... probably the funniest/stupidest thing i've ever heard. "Universal health care is not communist, even cuba has universal health care." For everyone who doesn't know, which most people on here are ignorant, Cuba IS a communist country, obv. Thats why the argument is so funny/stupid. wow if you are not 15 years old you are clearly retarded. I mean this is actually awful even for a 15 year old and that brilliant "communist vs war freak" stretch so that you can place yourself in the middle of the dillema and prepare your way to becoming president of the US wow edit: just saw that you're 21 yo ,amazing. good luck with the elections

He's got a point though. Ever since Britain became a Communist state in 1945 our national health care and extensive welfare system have been holding us back. What these lefties don't seem to realise is that the only people who can't afford healthcare are the lazy, stupid or blacks and therefore instituting a national health service just holds back the inevitable process of evolution and slows the development of the master race. But we can't do anything about it because the first thing the lefties did when they took power in Britain is took away all our guns. Now we're a fucking dictatorship and we have only ourselves to blame. If only we'd all had muskets, that'd keep the redcoats away.

--- Nuked ---

On September 01 2008 12:35 devon06atX wrote: ahhhhhhahahahaha that was hilarious

ty ty 84o

I especially liked the health-care and I'm gonna run for-president parts.

--- Nuked ---

eightfouro, at first I thought you were just really stupid and crazy, but as I read along I found that I agreed with at least half of what you said. But on some points I think you attacked with false info, so I wanna correct you.

First, where we agree: Support of unions, equal rights (gay marriage), free economy, legalization of weed for medicine, free speech, right to privacy, encourage trade, discourage companies moving over seas and giving jobs to mexicans/indians.

So we agree on a lot. But some stuff you said I think you just have bad info. (Your claims in bold, my response beneath)

1) Obama wants to make doctors government employees

Umm, totally wrong. He wants to give the public the choice to buy into the same type of health insurance that congress gets, which is also more reasonably priced than other plans. You still can buy health insurance with any other private company too. You have full choice, he's just adding another choice. He's also going to try to get rates of private health insurance to drop AND to stop them from discriminating against sick people.

2) Obama wants universal health care, which obv has been a failure in every other country that has attempted it...there would be long long long long long lines waiting for a terrible doctor.

Yes he wants universal health care, but you're wrong that every country who has attempted it failed. The UK, France, Canada, and many other places have functional quality universal health care. If you want some visual proof check out the movie "Sicko" and you'll get a video tour of the hospitals and the care over there, which puts us to shame. The doctors also get different levels of pay dependent on how good of a job they do, and they get paid well. They have different incentives, things like the more people they get to quit smoking the bigger their bonus is. Good idea no?

3) Oh don't forget all the other government programs he would spend money on...

Another misconception - yes he wants to spend money on education and so on, but he also wants to cut the budget. He wants to get rid of old programs that don't work and put the money into programs that do. He probably wants to do more programs than mccain, but overall he's not planning to create a communist society. Far from it.

4) The guy who got drunk every day and never showed up for class, and cheating was the only way he was able to graduate would make the exacte same amount of money that the man who studied his ass off and graduated valedictorian of his class.

Again, that is not how Obama's health care plan works. I understand that in a communist society this is how it works and I agree with you that it's a bad set up. But you're making the false claim that Obama is setting up a communist society. He does not want to pay all doctors the exact same amount of money, so your argument here is completely wrong.

5) If you give your weapons up to the government, they are in COMPLETE control of you. They own you.

Here is where you sounded crazy to me, but whatever, I'm pretty down the middle for guns. I think it's ok for people to have em if they're qualified. I don't want drug dealers, gang bangers, mental patients and so on to have em, and I don't want kids to be raiding their parents gun cabinets. So I'm cool with people having guns as long as they're trained, mentally stable and take safety precautions.


Oh, I kinda agree with you about how we help people around the world. I believe in helping them, but I think your point about moving em outta the desert rather than sending food is solid. either move em or set em up to take care of themselves. I don't want to give charity, I want to make people self sufficient.

Anyway, just needed to correct you on some of the points you made against Obama. I think you just heard that he's a communist so you started using arguments against communism against Obama. I agree with your arguments against communism, but the facts show Obama isn't trying to do communist shit, so your making bad arguments against Obama there.

On September 01 2008 14:15 k2o4 wrote: eightfouro, at first I thought you were just really stupid and crazy, but as I read along I found that I agreed with at least half of what you said. But on some points I think you attacked with false info, so I wanna correct you. First, where we agree: Support of unions, equal rights (gay marriage), free economy, legalization of weed for medicine, free speech, right to privacy, encourage trade, discourage companies moving over seas and giving jobs to mexicans/indians. So we agree on a lot. But some stuff you said I think you just have bad info. (Your claims in bold, my response beneath) 1) Obama wants to make doctors government employees Umm, totally wrong. He wants to give the public the choice to buy into the same type of health insurance that congress gets, which is also more reasonably priced than other plans. You still can buy health insurance with any other private company too. You have full choice, he's just adding another choice. He's also going to try to get rates of private health insurance to drop AND to stop them from discriminating against sick people. 2) Obama wants universal health care, which obv has been a failure in every other country that has attempted it...there would be long long long long long lines waiting for a terrible doctor. Yes he wants universal health care, but you're wrong that every country who has attempted it failed. The UK, France, Canada, and many other places have functional quality universal health care. If you want some visual proof check out the movie "Sicko" and you'll get a video tour of the hospitals and the care over there, which puts us to shame. The doctors also get different levels of pay dependent on how good of a job they do, and they get paid well. They have different incentives, things like the more people they get to quit smoking the bigger their bonus is. Good idea no? 3) Oh don't forget all the other government programs he would spend money on... Another misconception - yes he wants to spend money on education and so on, but he also wants to cut the budget. He wants to get rid of old programs that don't work and put the money into programs that do. He probably wants to do more programs than mccain, but overall he's not planning to create a communist society. Far from it. 4) The guy who got drunk every day and never showed up for class, and cheating was the only way he was able to graduate would make the exacte same amount of money that the man who studied his ass off and graduated valedictorian of his class. Again, that is not how Obama's health care plan works. I understand that in a communist society this is how it works and I agree with you that it's a bad set up. But you're making the false claim that Obama is setting up a communist society. He does not want to pay all doctors the exact same amount of money, so your argument here is completely wrong. 5) If you give your weapons up to the government, they are in COMPLETE control of you. They own you. Here is where you sounded crazy to me, but whatever, I'm pretty down the middle for guns. I think it's ok for people to have em if they're qualified. I don't want drug dealers, gang bangers, mental patients and so on to have em, and I don't want kids to be raiding their parents gun cabinets. So I'm cool with people having guns as long as they're trained, mentally stable and take safety precautions. Oh, I kinda agree with you about how we help people around the world. I believe in helping them, but I think your point about moving em outta the desert rather than sending food is solid. either move em or set em up to take care of themselves. I don't want to give charity, I want to make people self sufficient. Anyway, just needed to correct you on some of the points you made against Obama. I think you just heard that he's a communist so you started using arguments against communism against Obama. I agree with your arguments against communism, but the facts show Obama isn't trying to do communist shit, so your making bad arguments against Obama there.

Sounds like he's trying to make America more like Canada

k2o4:

Don't confuse the poor soul by making an actual, solid argument, while providing actual facts as evidence.

Just a note on the gun issue: having a gun in your house which you might use to defend yourself provides not nearly as much benefit as the increased danger from someone in your family being injured or killed in an accident with said gun. From a gambler's perspective, owning a gun tends to be -EV in that light. I'm not arguing for or against gun control, as I don't have the qualifications debate to the broader issue, but I just thought I'd point that out that aspect of it, as it relates to those making personal decisions about whether to have a gun in the home.

On September 01 2008 14:31 TalentedTom wrote: Show nested quote + On September 01 2008 14:15 k2o4 wrote: eightfouro, at first I thought you were just really stupid and crazy, but as I read along I found that I agreed with at least half of what you said. But on some points I think you attacked with false info, so I wanna correct you. First, where we agree: Support of unions, equal rights (gay marriage), free economy, legalization of weed for medicine, free speech, right to privacy, encourage trade, discourage companies moving over seas and giving jobs to mexicans/indians. So we agree on a lot. But some stuff you said I think you just have bad info. (Your claims in bold, my response beneath) 1) Obama wants to make doctors government employees Umm, totally wrong. He wants to give the public the choice to buy into the same type of health insurance that congress gets, which is also more reasonably priced than other plans. You still can buy health insurance with any other private company too. You have full choice, he's just adding another choice. He's also going to try to get rates of private health insurance to drop AND to stop them from discriminating against sick people. 2) Obama wants universal health care, which obv has been a failure in every other country that has attempted it...there would be long long long long long lines waiting for a terrible doctor. Yes he wants universal health care, but you're wrong that every country who has attempted it failed. The UK, France, Canada, and many other places have functional quality universal health care. If you want some visual proof check out the movie "Sicko" and you'll get a video tour of the hospitals and the care over there, which puts us to shame. The doctors also get different levels of pay dependent on how good of a job they do, and they get paid well. They have different incentives, things like the more people they get to quit smoking the bigger their bonus is. Good idea no? 3) Oh don't forget all the other government programs he would spend money on... Another misconception - yes he wants to spend money on education and so on, but he also wants to cut the budget. He wants to get rid of old programs that don't work and put the money into programs that do. He probably wants to do more programs than mccain, but overall he's not planning to create a communist society. Far from it. 4) The guy who got drunk every day and never showed up for class, and cheating was the only way he was able to graduate would make the exacte same amount of money that the man who studied his ass off and graduated valedictorian of his class. Again, that is not how Obama's health care plan works. I understand that in a communist society this is how it works and I agree with you that it's a bad set up. But you're making the false claim that Obama is setting up a communist society. He does not want to pay all doctors the exact same amount of money, so your argument here is completely wrong. 5) If you give your weapons up to the government, they are in COMPLETE control of you. They own you. Here is where you sounded crazy to me, but whatever, I'm pretty down the middle for guns. I think it's ok for people to have em if they're qualified. I don't want drug dealers, gang bangers, mental patients and so on to have em, and I don't want kids to be raiding their parents gun cabinets. So I'm cool with people having guns as long as they're trained, mentally stable and take safety precautions. Oh, I kinda agree with you about how we help people around the world. I believe in helping them, but I think your point about moving em outta the desert rather than sending food is solid. either move em or set em up to take care of themselves. I don't want to give charity, I want to make people self sufficient. Anyway, just needed to correct you on some of the points you made against Obama. I think you just heard that he's a communist so you started using arguments against communism against Obama. I agree with your arguments against communism, but the facts show Obama isn't trying to do communist shit, so your making bad arguments against Obama there. Sounds like he's trying to make America more like Canada

You make it sound like that's a bad idea ??

There are plenty of us who hate the idea of socialism, including socialized medicine. So yea, in our opinion, bad idea.

It is amazing to me how many people want the government to have complete control over their lives.

On September 02 2008 01:20 ShaunR wrote: There are plenty of us who hate the idea of socialism, including socialized medicine. So yea, in our opinion, bad idea. It is amazing to me how many people want the government to have complete control over their lives.

There's a middle point between no control and complete control which we like to refer to as some control. Straw man arguments based around complete control don't really apply.

On September 02 2008 01:20 ShaunR wrote: There are plenty of us who hate the idea of socialism, including socialized medicine. So yea, in our opinion, bad idea. It is amazing to me how many people want the government to have complete control over their lives.

Complete control over our lives?

It is amazing to me how successful the republican campaign has been of instilling fear of socialism in people so that they can continue to fuck over the middle class and the poor.

US medical system in a nutshell:

For the study -- led by Gerard Anderson, a health policy professor at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health -- researchers analyzed the health care costs of 30 nations in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. The study found:
The nations examined spend a median of $2,193 per capita on health care;


The United States spent $5,267 per capita for prescription drugs, hospital stays and physicians visits in 2002, compared with $3,446 per capita for Switzerland, the next highest spender;


Health care spending accounted for 14.6% of the U.S. gross domestic product in 2002, a time when only two other nations -- Switzerland and Germany -- spent more than 10% of their GDP on health care;


The United States has 2.9 hospital beds per 1,000 residents, compared with a median of 3.7 beds per 1,000 residents among the other nations examined;


The United States had 2.4 physicians per 1,000 residents in 2001, compared with a median of 3.1 physicians per 1,000 residents among the other nations examined in 2002;


The United States had 7.9 nurses per 1,000 residents in the United States in 2001, compared with a median of 8.9 nurses per 1,000 residents among the other nations examined in 2002;


The United States has 12.8 CT scanners per one million U.S. residents, compared with a median of 13.3 scanners per one million residents among the other nations examined;


The United States appears to have more magnetic resonance imaging machines per capita than many of the other nations examined, but the machines are used only 10 hours daily in the United States, compared with a median of 18 hours daily in other nations

--------------------------------------------------
To sum it up, the US spends far more than anyone else, yet receives below average marks for most metrics that measure quality of care. The US spends twice as much as some countries that have universal coverage but we have 50 million + people without health insurance. Does this make any sense? This is the system that you are defending?

On September 02 2008 01:20 ShaunR wrote: There are plenty of us who hate the idea of socialism, including socialized medicine. So yea, in our opinion, bad idea. It is amazing to me how many people want the government to have complete control over their lives.

omg you cant be serous.... the current administration has been aggressively expanding into any area they can and actually its the most controlling government the united has ever seen in its history.

On September 02 2008 01:20 ShaunR wrote: There are plenty of us who hate the idea of socialism, including socialized medicine. So yea, in our opinion, bad idea. It is amazing to me how many people want the government to have complete control over their lives.

it's ridiculous to claim that any control from the state=socialism/communism etc
if you don't understand that capitalism could never exist without partial control from the state you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
so plz stop making arguments that boil down to "OMG U COMMIES!!!",they may work to 70 year old ladies but this is an internet forum

http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/39179-m...utube-problem-just-became-a-nightmare

On September 02 2008 03:00 Baal wrote: Show nested quote + On September 02 2008 01:20 ShaunR wrote: There are plenty of us who hate the idea of socialism, including socialized medicine. So yea, in our opinion, bad idea. It is amazing to me how many people want the government to have complete control over their lives. omg you cant be serous.... the current administration has been aggressively expanding into any area they can and actually its the most controlling government the united has ever seen in its history.

Which I am absolutely not a fan of - the spending by the current administration is absolutely rediculous. Fiscal conservatives are absolutely not happy with the bush administration in so many areas.

On September 02 2008 01:28 KwarK wrote: Show nested quote + On September 02 2008 01:20 ShaunR wrote: There are plenty of us who hate the idea of socialism, including socialized medicine. So yea, in our opinion, bad idea. It is amazing to me how many people want the government to have complete control over their lives. There's a middle point between no control and complete control which we like to refer to as some control. Straw man arguments based around complete control don't really apply.

Of course. But we are talking about the Canadian system here, can we not agree that it is essentially socialized medicine?

I don't advocate zero government control - but there is a huge difference between regulation, and management.


Edit:

Oh you were probably refering to my last comment - obviously I was exaggerating for effect... My point is simply that we should be able to rely on people to provide for their own *basic* health care. And given the governments track record for essentially everything they touch it is shocking to me that you would so easily hand over the entire healthcare system to these idiots who can't even properly manage a restaurant.

On September 02 2008 10:53 ShaunR wrote: Show nested quote + On September 02 2008 03:00 Baal wrote:   On September 02 2008 01:20 ShaunR wrote: There are plenty of us who hate the idea of socialism, including socialized medicine. So yea, in our opinion, bad idea. It is amazing to me how many people want the government to have complete control over their lives. omg you cant be serous.... the current administration has been aggressively expanding into any area they can and actually its the most controlling government the united has ever seen in its history. Which I am absolutely not a fan of - the spending by the current administration is absolutely rediculous. Fiscal conservatives are absolutely not happy with the bush administration in so many areas.   On September 02 2008 01:28 KwarK wrote: Show nested quote + On September 02 2008 01:20 ShaunR wrote: There are plenty of us who hate the idea of socialism, including socialized medicine. So yea, in our opinion, bad idea. It is amazing to me how many people want the government to have complete control over their lives. There's a middle point between no control and complete control which we like to refer to as some control. Straw man arguments based around complete control don't really apply. Of course. But we are talking about the Canadian system here, can we not agree that it is essentially socialized medicine? I don't advocate zero government control - but there is a huge difference between regulation, and management.

Canadian, yes, Obama's plan, no. His plan is NOT the same as the canadian one. Personally I would prefer socialized medicine, but what I like about Obama's plan is it's a middle of the road compromise - those who want to shop around and buy private health care can. those who want to opt into a public system can. Obama's plan is so far from communism.

Personally my feeling is that being a US citizen should be like being in a really awesome club. You pay some membership dues and you get some cool advantages cause you've got that membership card. This club should be providing great infrastructure (streets, sewers, and so on), great education, great health care, and allow you to retire with dignity when you hit the right age. I think all those things should be covered by the membership dues - so I pay my membership fee, those things are automatically covered and I don't have to pay anything extra.

That's not total control of our lives - that's them providing services which I believe should be covered since we're members of this pimpin club. These are the member benefits. I wish the bush administration had been expanding their control by providing this shit rather than stealing our civil liberties, spying on us and making it easier for the gov to invade our privacy.

On health care, I believe that if you're sick you shouldn't have to lose all of your life savings to fix it. At the same time, if you're in alcoholic who drinks himself into sickness and needs a liver transplant, I think you should have some sort of burden, cause that's your own damn fault. But I think if someone is sick and taken to a hospital, no matter what the reason they're that way, we should fix em up without question. Then afterwards if it comes out that they're here because of lung cancer and they've smoked 4 packs a day for 20 years, then when they're healthy they should have to either pay money or (if they're broke) do some sorta community service to return the favor.

Cool idea right?

Do you guys realize that every industrialized country in the world except the US has universal health care?

There are various degrees of government control and while there are differences between the proposed plans of hillary and obama for example, ALL the plans that democrats have proposed come nowhere close to the level of government control of health care as Canada. To compare the democrats plan and Canada and the UK is comparing apples and oranges and shows a fundamental lack of understanding. I consider myself a diehard liberal and even I understand that the UK and Canadian structure will never get implemented in the US. Although I would personally love to see that kind of system here, I'm a realist and I know that there is zero chance of that ever coming to fruition.

There is a middle ground however. The government can act as the insurer of last resort, to guarantee access to health care for all citizens, without shouldering the entire burden. Also, the government can pay for the medical care without having complete control of the system. Of course as the source of money, they will have significant influence. But the medical institutions will be largely private and doctors will NOT be government employees. Japan has a similar system where the government guarantees coverage for all citizens but a significant portion of the care is still paid by private companies and the consumer through co-payments. And the doctors are NOT gov't employees and they operate as private businesses.

Now I completely understand that money is power and being the source of the money allows for significant influence. For example in Japan, the government sets prices on many procedures so this does place limitations on the free market. But the main point that I'm trying to make is that no serious politician in the US even dreams of implementing socialized medicine where the government owns the hospitals and doctors become government employees. Rather, there is a middle ground where the government can offer all citizens access to health care without complete government control.

ok, k2o4 basically beat me to it and said the same thing that I said.

On September 02 2008 11:39 Pacifist wrote: Do you guys realize that every industrialized country in the world except the US has universal health care?

somehow, the republicans have succeeded in making people believe that universal health care = communism.

Obamas plan is basically "I will just hand over health insurance to everyone who doesnt have it, and everyone elses health insurance will drop in price drastically, and all the drugs will be cheaper".

Hehe!

If he does get elected, put me down for some huge prop bets on whether anything close to his plan ever actually occurs.

On September 02 2008 11:53 TenBagger wrote: Show nested quote + On September 02 2008 11:39 Pacifist wrote: Do you guys realize that every industrialized country in the world except the US has universal health care? somehow, the republicans have succeeded in making people believe that universal health care = communism.

I know man, it's pretty sad how far behind we are. And TenBagger is right, the republicans are great at scaring people and they did it again with healthcare. Just look at what eightforu or whatever his name is was saying.

I also gotta say Tenbagger made a great point in how far all the Dem's health care plans are from the UK and Canada. Obama's is actually the furthest from UK/Canada out of all the Dem's proposals. It's the most middle of the road approach by far, cause Obama is really pretty much a centrist who believes in compromise. He's not some sorta super crazy liberal like the republicans want people to think.

On September 02 2008 12:05 ShaunR wrote: Obamas plan is basically "I will just hand over health insurance to everyone who doesnt have it, and everyone elses health insurance will drop in price drastically, and all the drugs will be cheaper". Hehe! If he does get elected, put me down for some huge prop bets on whether anything close to his plan ever actually occurs.

Find me after he's elected and we'll put some prop bets together =)

I like how I proposed to ShaunR that we should discuss specific points after he accused me of being ignorant of the issues and in his numerous following posts he has yet to produce a single concrete debateable point.

What specific points about obama's plan do you disagree with? Maybe then we can start to have a constructive conversation. Oh wait, you actually have to know the plan to discuss it. ShaunR, since it is painfully obvious that your knowledge is limited to little tidbits that you've picked up on FOX news, go do some homework and read up and come back and maybe then we can carry on an intelligent conversation.

There's a reason I'm voting Libertarian this year. At their core, both major party candidates just want to find new ways to intrude in your life.

BTW, here's exactly what the Republican platform says:

Millions of Americans suffer from problem or pathological gambling that can destroy families. We support the law prohibiting gambling over the Internet.

I like how they combine the "all gambling is addictive" and "we must protect families" angles. I guess protecting families by not wasting their tax dollars on this kind of shit doesn't pander to the religious fundamentalists enough to be included on the platform.

On September 02 2008 15:25 Heero wrote: There's a reason I'm voting Libertarian this year. At their core, both major party candidates just want to find new ways to intrude in your life. BTW, here's exactly what the Republican platform says: Show nested quote + Millions of Americans suffer from problem or pathological gambling that can destroy families. We support the law prohibiting gambling over the Internet. I like how they combine the "all gambling is addictive" and "we must protect families" angles. I guess protecting families by not wasting their tax dollars on this kind of shit doesn't pander to the religious fundamentalists enough to be included on the platform.

What i don't understand is how republicans are all about "It's your money, do what you want with it"...hence the decrease in taxes, the no gov't programs, etc etc. Why the hell wont they let me spend my money how i want to then?? stupid hypocrites...

k2o4... Thanks for actually aguing your case in a sensible way. I am going to do more research on the topic. If all you're points are correct, the only problem i would have would be how to pay for it... I don't recall you saying anything about that.

oh the whole reason i quoted you herro...i was going to ask...libertarian as in write in for ron paul??

i was voting for him but i heard he dropped out and wasn't running after he dropped from the rep. ballot

I'm voting Bob Barr, the Libertarian Party candidate.

Ron Paul was a nutjob.

GO MCCAIN