shortst. vs fullst. profitability on blinds. - Page 2

On August 03 2008 06:57 NMcNasty wrote: Show nested quote + On August 02 2008 20:10 PoorUser wrote:   On August 02 2008 17:14 NMcNasty wrote: Shortstackers cant 3bet bluff, wat? cuz opponents calling range is going to be 44+, KQ, AJ+ already since all shortstackers always value-push about at that range, so a shortstacker cant bluff with something like 56s like a deep stacked player can, where he can frequently get hands as good as AQ and 88 to fold since many opponents don't want to play big pots deep with marginal hands. I'll concede that a shortstacker can sometimes shove something like QTs to a button raise, but thats about it.

calling with KQ or 44 si def EV-

However if we consider that when they double up they open up a slot from a possible fish it might open up a bit the calling range.

On August 03 2008 09:10 sOah wrote: I think this is the stinkeypete rathole theorem technically it's +EV to do in a lot of situations for who can be fucked, honestly

stinkypete sighting

On August 03 2008 13:29 PoorUser wrote: Show nested quote + On August 03 2008 06:57 NMcNasty wrote:   On August 02 2008 20:10 PoorUser wrote:   On August 02 2008 17:14 NMcNasty wrote: Shortstackers cant 3bet bluff, wat? cuz opponents calling range is going to be 44+, KQ, AJ+ already since all shortstackers always value-push about at that range, so a shortstacker cant bluff with something like 56s like a deep stacked player can, where he can frequently get hands as good as AQ and 88 to fold since many opponents don't want to play big pots deep with marginal hands. I'll concede that a shortstacker can sometimes shove something like QTs to a button raise, but thats about it. can also open shove sb with a giant range when folds around. im sure i get reshoved on more than you and have seen some more suspect hands turn up so i guess some of them are shoving player dependant

The open shoves from the SB aren't exactly bluffs, its more of a matter of putting Sklansky-Chubukov numbers to use. Open shoving K9o or A2o for 20 BB is generally impossible to exploit.

On August 03 2008 15:25 Baal wrote: Show nested quote + On August 03 2008 06:57 NMcNasty wrote:   On August 02 2008 20:10 PoorUser wrote:   On August 02 2008 17:14 NMcNasty wrote: Shortstackers cant 3bet bluff, wat? cuz opponents calling range is going to be 44+, KQ, AJ+ already since all shortstackers always value-push about at that range, so a shortstacker cant bluff with something like 56s like a deep stacked player can, where he can frequently get hands as good as AQ and 88 to fold since many opponents don't want to play big pots deep with marginal hands. I'll concede that a shortstacker can sometimes shove something like QTs to a button raise, but thats about it. calling with KQ or 44 si def EV- However if we consider that when they double up they open up a slot from a possible fish it might open up a bit the calling range.

from the button or cutoff u absolutely have to call KQ+ and 44+, and usually a wider range. Against real tight shortstackers u can just play AJ+ and 77+ if you open from middle position, but I would only do that if I was pretty confident in what their default shove is. Plenty of shortstackers always shove 22 and KQ, and there are also a few bad ones that mix in stupid bluffs or shove AT, so folding your 44 and kq would be a pretty significant mistake.

bleh, its basically just a math homework problem :

On August 03 2008 15:56 NMcNasty wrote: Show nested quote + On August 03 2008 13:29 PoorUser wrote:   On August 03 2008 06:57 NMcNasty wrote:   On August 02 2008 20:10 PoorUser wrote:   On August 02 2008 17:14 NMcNasty wrote: Shortstackers cant 3bet bluff, wat? cuz opponents calling range is going to be 44+, KQ, AJ+ already since all shortstackers always value-push about at that range, so a shortstacker cant bluff with something like 56s like a deep stacked player can, where he can frequently get hands as good as AQ and 88 to fold since many opponents don't want to play big pots deep with marginal hands. I'll concede that a shortstacker can sometimes shove something like QTs to a button raise, but thats about it. can also open shove sb with a giant range when folds around. im sure i get reshoved on more than you and have seen some more suspect hands turn up so i guess some of them are shoving player dependant The open shoves from the SB aren't exactly bluffs, its more of a matter of putting Sklansky-Chubukov numbers to use. Open shoving K9o or A2o for 20 BB is generally impossible to exploit.

i get that, i was talking about complete airballs like q6o / 62o 92s (three that happened today)

On August 03 2008 01:16 Bigbobm wrote: Show nested quote + On August 02 2008 22:17 BigRed0000 wrote: Tom is the man. (TJBentham, sorry talentedtom.) Tom is a hero Also, I don't think it's the best idea to discuss how to maximize a short stacks profitability. They tilt me enough as it is and they are terrible.

.. isn't this post a little ironic since I *think* TJbentham has done a fair share of shortstacking ? Unless I'm confusing him with someone else.

whos slotboom?

On August 03 2008 18:15 PoorUser wrote: Show nested quote + On August 03 2008 15:56 NMcNasty wrote:   On August 03 2008 13:29 PoorUser wrote:   On August 03 2008 06:57 NMcNasty wrote:   On August 02 2008 20:10 PoorUser wrote:   On August 02 2008 17:14 NMcNasty wrote: Shortstackers cant 3bet bluff, wat? cuz opponents calling range is going to be 44+, KQ, AJ+ already since all shortstackers always value-push about at that range, so a shortstacker cant bluff with something like 56s like a deep stacked player can, where he can frequently get hands as good as AQ and 88 to fold since many opponents don't want to play big pots deep with marginal hands. I'll concede that a shortstacker can sometimes shove something like QTs to a button raise, but thats about it. can also open shove sb with a giant range when folds around. im sure i get reshoved on more than you and have seen some more suspect hands turn up so i guess some of them are shoving player dependant The open shoves from the SB aren't exactly bluffs, its more of a matter of putting Sklansky-Chubukov numbers to use. Open shoving K9o or A2o for 20 BB is generally impossible to exploit. i get that, i was talking about complete airballs like q6o / 62o 92s (three that happened today)

lol, thats really terrible :|

Its just automatically unprofitable since ur already calling with a third of ur range

I wouldn't say it's terrible. Shoving any two bvb for 20bb's is probably +EV against the majority of people.

A random hand is 39-61 against top 33% according to pokerstove. So on average you're only losing 0.5bb by shoving any two against a person who calls w/ top 33% (someone correct me if I'm wrong). And you say you're calling w/ a third of your range there, but in the heat of the moment do you really click call w/ hands like Q7s, K4s, J9s? So what can be said about the average reg who's probably folding some of his weak Ax and half of his Kx?

shoving any 2 as ur entire range might be profitable against some tight players, but the bottom half of that range will still be unprofitable on its own.

My autocalling range is A2+, 22+, K9o+, K6s+, and QTs+ but I'll play a little looser sometimes, either cuz i think they might be retarded, cuz i would rather have a fish at their seat, or they might have a stack slightly less than 20 BB.

On August 04 2008 09:14 NMcNasty wrote: shoving any 2 as ur entire range might be profitable against some tight players, but the bottom half of that range will still be unprofitable on its own. My autocalling range is A2+, 22+, K9o+, K6s+, and QTs+ but I'll play a little looser sometimes, either cuz i think they might be retarded, cuz i would rather have a fish at their seat, or they might have a stack slightly less than 20 BB.

im gonna sit on all of your tables directly on your right and shortstack you. brb

interesting read so far

fwiw when i did a bit of shortstacking i would really look forward to the blinds
i don't have enough stats to make any sort of accurate judgment but at the very least it felt better.