200nl jj vs donkbet?

somebody give me some direction on this hand. whats flop play and plan for turn?


Submitted by : rossi094

PokerStars Game #18972591800: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/07/20 - 19:10:29 (ET)
Table 'Riceia II' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Senecady ($32 in chips)
Seat 2: Tecknowledgy ($230.55 in chips)
Seat 3: ItalianWolf ($206.10 in chips)
Seat 4: Hero ($212 in chips)
Seat 5: goemonthe3rd ($37 in chips)
Seat 6: ImSoMucked ($72.25 in chips)
Seat 7: TheLife ($209 in chips)
Seat 9: HuanHuan ($221.45 in chips)
Senecady: posts small blind $1
Tecknowledgy: posts big blind $2

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
ItalianWolf: folds
Hero : raises $4 to $6
goemonthe3rd: folds
ImSoMucked: folds
TheLife: folds
HuanHuan: folds
Senecady: folds
Tecknowledgy: calls $4

Flop (Pot : $13.00)

   
Tecknowledgy: bets $18
Hero : calls $18

Turn (Pot : $49.00)

   
Tecknowledgy: bets $46
Hero : folds
Uncalled bet ($46) returned to Tecknowledgy
Tecknowledgy collected $46.60 from pot
Tecknowledgy: doesn't show hand

Summary
Total pot $49 | Rake $2.40
Board  
Seat 1: Senecady (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: Tecknowledgy (big blind) collected ($46.60)
Seat 3: ItalianWolf folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Hero folded on the Turn
Seat 5: goemonthe3rd folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: ImSoMucked folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: TheLife folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: HuanHuan (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

at best your flipping vs his range. id fold flop easy.

I don't think myth necessarily can expect you to fold an overpair on that turn, and to him that has to comprise a large part of your range, making it an easy fold.

is that myth? if so, i'd shove, and before shoving type "RAWWRRR"

this is obviously based on nothing however, you provide no info no history, who the hell knows what to do

i love them lurkers who try to get lpers to reveal what they held.

without any solid reads i fold

i jam this turn and say "hi myth"
i like the guy so i give him money

villain in this hand is a donk. i overbet shove the flop.

On July 20 2008 20:08 YoMeR wrote: villain in this hand is a donk. i overbet shove the flop.

overbet shove is rly good counter to my lead overbet tbh

i was recording for a video, i prob had airball and just figured that if you flat the flop you can never call again. will check hh and post

actually the way you played it is probably fine with no reads against most people. possibly a fold on the flop. not necessarily against me but you probably don't know that this is me or know anything about how i play here

good players usually take really stupid/tricky/nonstandard lines when they are trying to extract value

i might do the opposite but i don't think it'll be very easy to know what i'm up to most of the time (well, i hope not - i might be a pretty transparent donk though )

Submitted by : [vital]Myth

PokerStars Game #18972591800: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/07/20 - 19:10:29 (ET)
Table 'Riceia II' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Senecady ($32 in chips)
Seat 2: Tecknowledgy ($230.55 in chips)
Seat 3: ItalianWolf ($206.10 in chips)
Seat 4: Rossi094 ($212 in chips)
Seat 5: goemonthe3rd ($37 in chips)
Seat 6: ImSoMucked ($72.25 in chips)
Seat 7: TheLife ($209 in chips)
Seat 9: HuanHuan ($221.45 in chips)
Senecady: posts small blind $1
Tecknowledgy : posts big blind $2

Holecards
Dealt to Tecknowledgy
ItalianWolf: folds
Rossi094: raises $4 to $6
goemonthe3rd: folds
ImSoMucked: folds
TheLife: folds
HuanHuan: folds
Senecady: folds
Tecknowledgy : calls $4

Flop (Pot : $13.00)

   
Tecknowledgy : bets $18
Rossi094: calls $18

Turn (Pot : $49.00)

   
Tecknowledgy : bets $46
Rossi094: folds
Uncalled bet ($46) returned to Tecknowledgy
Tecknowledgy collected $46.60 from pot
Tecknowledgy : doesn't show hand

Summary
Total pot $49 | Rake $2.40
Board  
Seat 1: Senecady (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: Tecknowledgy (big blind) collected ($46.60)
Seat 3: ItalianWolf folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Rossi094 folded on the Turn
Seat 5: goemonthe3rd folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: ImSoMucked folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: TheLife folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: HuanHuan (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

On July 20 2008 16:31 Oly wrote: I don't think myth necessarily can expect you to fold an overpair on that turn, and to him that has to comprise a large part of your range, making it an easy fold.

i definitely think he's folding every overpair by the river when i take this type of line

plus any 8, 9, T, heart, and possibly a jack

makes him fold overpairs even more

Ok, the hand has been posted, so that kind supports my argument, but I prefer a raise vs a call here because calling just puts you into this shitty situation where you get progressively more and more scared on each successive street and end up folding on turn or river, just as myth expects. If you are that scared of him and expect him outplay you, just fold and get the fuck out of his way. If you want to play, raise and put him to a decision and see what he does. Calling is such a sucker play here unless you are sure you are ahead.

I would appreciate comments on my take.

Also, myth where can we see your videos?

phexac, no

you just gather information over time, and use it as well as you can. he has no read so he makes a solid play and peels once then folds, which is fine

after playing several thousand hands with me he'll probably decide that it's best to just call all 3 streets here, and definitely better never to raise because if he raises it won't give me a chance to keep bluffing

you can see my videos at cardrunners.com starting in august

finally myth. (hoping its FR vids)

good move by Myth, becouse Im instafolding 22-66 and overcards
but raising flop with 9T+ for valueflip and 2 hearts to have fun
My floating range there is like J9 only

yeah at the time i posted this hand i had no idea it was myth. i thought it was just some random n00b (because this is a line i rarely see out of someone who is good), and because i dont think i recognized that name. jesus nice bets i guess , i got owned.

On July 20 2008 17:38 TalentedTom wrote: is that myth? if so, i'd shove, and before shoving type "RAWWRRR"

it's not, check the spelling

I did laugh when I saw what I thought was Myth at a 1/2 table though

edit: wat

I thought it was spelled with an H

=[

The reason I would advocate raising here is because there are so many cards I really do not want to see. Of course, mathematically, there is no difference between calling a bet and making it yourself and having it called, so if you are behind then you are paying $18 to see flop in a $13 pot, but the board is still kinda shitty to not be taking control of the pot. What's your take on that, myth?

what?

don't really get what you're saying. it's useless to protect your hand when you're never getting value from worse and always forcing out bluffs that will likely follow-up

i had already bet 18 into 13. wtf is the point of raising, so he can fold to a shove after spewing $50, or so he can call a shove and spew $200? all for the thin hope of winning $31 -.-a

if he just calls, he's either

- going to win the 31 anyway, plus possibly more, or
- going to lose just 18

so unless he thinks i am a pretty outrageous spewtard who is gonna overbet flop then get it in bad against his JJ, he definitely can't raise

-.-a???

See thats why you > me. Because my first thought here is a significant reraise on the flop, you know, "to see where im at". Once you shove over me, I'm probably thinking "mother fucker has J9/set/flush draw". And then the prideful fish in me makes me call anyway, and feel proud that I beat a bluff, yet knowing secretly everyone will now target me.

So even though he had you beat, the right thing for him to do here was either call down 3 streets, or just take the safe route and fold?

You cant call 3 barrels so easy. What if a scary card comes (most of the deck)?
and he cant easily have j9, becouse OP has 2 blockers. His range is anything reasonable (no air), probabbly all thoose hands he's not folding to a raise (combo draws, sets)
I think the only options are fold to donkb or raise, and the answer can be found making some calculations with estimated ranges

raising a lead overbet here is just terrible unless you are 100% comfortable getting it in on the flop

i mean minraising as a total bluff might be fine but raising with JJ is not

call flop call turn raise river.

Kind of interesting, I found myself in myth's situation a couple of days ago, before reading this thread. Im SB with AKo, but elect to reraise the cutoff. Flop comes 9910, I lead the flop with air, and he reraises. I shove and he calls. He had 77. Now he was getting like 3:1 to call by this point, so maybe that explains it, and the pot was larger due to my initial raise rather than calling preflop. Otherwise seems like a somewhat similar situation. Bad play on his part? Or bad on mine?

On July 20 2008 20:19 [vital]Myth wrote: i was recording for a video

where can i get this video

On July 20 2008 17:39 TalentedTom wrote: this is obviously based on nothing however, you provide no info no history, who the hell knows what to do

THANK YOU

I usually dont give front betting much credit unless a tricky player is doing it. Meaning, i would call down 3 streets here vs most people. Vs Myth I dont know what to do, I think most good / tricky players sees this flop as a good flop to check-raise sets on, representing a draw. Figures JJ is probably good or flipping IMO. I would probably reraise and call a shove.

oh baby

[vital]Myth doesn't donkbet,he leads