Failed. Time to move on.

How is it harder to make money exactly?
You already have an income as an online poker player, doesn't matter where you do it really besides the first couple weeks of moving + acclimation.
If you make $40k in poker in the US why'd it drop when you move to Malta for example?
And your overhead will be much lower unless you go full tard holiday mode and spent shitloads more than you did back home.

And I checked to get from Toronto to Prague cost $600 heh
And it IS living for now, more so than if you don't do it especially if you are single and never travelled wouldn't you agree?


A lot of the successful pros have moved early on like Linus Ike etc etc. I don't see any reason not to do it besides fear when we're talking about giving poker a real shot and a medium time period.


I play small-midstakes now
But I was a micro pro partying it up for like 2.5years here playing NL16-NL25 :D
There's no way in hell I could do that in the UK, moving was the only option if I wanted to give poker a shot, and I did.

You keep saying "I play small-midstakes now" but im not sure if you realize that pretty much means nothing. I mean, what does that mean exactly?What kind of volume are you playing? What's your winrate? Whats the hourly at? How much do you make/expect to make? For how long have you been making this? What is your bankroll? What is your networth? I mean those are pretty personal questions and I wouldn't answer them but i bring it up because you seem to keep bringing up this point about "playing small-midstakes" now as some sort of receipt that legitimizes your career. Not trying to be a dick but LP needs more than that to be like wow lemon made it at poker.

You're right in the sense that its the only way to give yourself a real shot in poker, not just because the expenses are low but because you really have to push yourself and play the tougher games on pokerstars at some point. Back when I had a go at poker I should have somehow tried to fit this into my life but I never got the chance to. I also probably had a two month window at the end of 2017/start of 2018 but I missed the window.

I mean that it's easier to make money normally, in a first world country (be normal in the first world vs being a digital nomad). It's not even close for most people. I'm single and I have enough saved to try and do the whole poker thing comfortably right now. If I wait a couple years though, I can do what you are doing while not having to work or play poker at all, live in the nicest areas, spend money on whatever, party every day, etc and probably never run out of money.

btw regarding cost of rent, I've heard quite a while ago that you shouldnt spend more then 1 weeks income on monthly rent. As dumb as it seems working 1/4 of the time for the space to live in seems as reasonable as it gets if you dont have your own place.

On September 19 2018 21:01 LemOn[5thF] wrote: How is it harder to make money exactly? You already have an income as an online poker player, doesn't matter where you do it really besides the first couple weeks of moving + acclimation. If you make $40k in poker in the US why'd it drop when you move to Malta for example? And your overhead will be much lower unless you go full tard holiday mode and spent shitloads more than you did back home. And I checked to get from Toronto to Prague cost $600 heh And it IS living for now, more so than if you don't do it especially if you are single and never travelled wouldn't you agree? A lot of the successful pros have moved early on like Linus Ike etc etc. I don't see any reason not to do it besides fear when we're talking about giving poker a real shot and a medium time period. I play small-midstakes now But I was a micro pro partying it up for like 2.5years here playing NL16-NL25 :D There's no way in hell I could do that in the UK, moving was the only option if I wanted to give poker a shot, and I did.

It was harder for me. You don't have the setup you do "at home." "At home" I had a really nice desktop and a 30'' monitor and a 24'' monitor and a great mouse and etc etc etc. I had a nice desk chair. In Buenos Aires, for example, they were limited in electronics and they were quite a bit more price wise. It was difficult getting electronics into the country. So, I was playing on some ok Acer laptop in sketchy chairs on like tabletops trying to 8-12 table on sketchy internet. My Macbook Pro I could never get the mouse sensitivity how I wanted it.

My income increased when I went to Malta. Beautiful country, nice way of living and I was living with very good poker players. It has its downsides too for sure. Those were the days. Having stacks of purple Euros in my suitcase just not giving a fuck. On the other hand I was thinking today that that was some version of hell.

On September 19 2018 11:22 LemOn[5thF] wrote: lol I pay $320 rent including utilities xD Never understood how can you be a pro poker player at some point and not use that to travel and move to a cheap country for at least a few months. I moved from UK to Czech Republic for Poker and let me tell you it's just so much easier to play online when you're not hemorrhaging money away through fixed costs, there's no point even trying when your rent alone is $1800

I've spent a lot of time living outside the US during the past decade (currently living in Colombia). Personally a huge fan of living abroad esp. when you have the opportunity to arbitrage first-world salary with cheaper location cost of living. That said I think there's a bunch of obvious reasons why some people would choose not to.

-OP specifically said he has a girlfriend living in Canada.

-Some people have friends/family they don't want to leave.

-Some people simply prefer the lifestyle in whichever expensive country they're from, and are sufficiently successful at poker that the cost of living difference just isn't that big of a deal.

-I know you specifically said 'pro poker player', but obviously a lot of people have concerns about the future profitability of online poker

-Some people want to do something more meaningful / interesting (this isn't a shot at poker players btw, if I knew I could make $100k+/year playing poker and knew there was minimal chance of that decreasing over the next 10-15 years, I would probably be doing that).

Well yeah I understand family gf etc.
but when you pay just rent of $1800 are in a large country where you need a car so your fixed costs will be like what $4k/month?
I don't see you having a choice if you wanted to give online poker an actual shot, learn again and grind, it's seems close to impossible to actually make it and play fulltime from there

On September 20 2018 09:35 LemOn[5thF] wrote: Well yeah I understand family gf etc. but when you pay just rent of $1800 are in a large country where you need a car so your fixed costs will be like what $4k/month? I don't see you having a choice if you wanted to give online poker an actual shot, learn again and grind, it's seems close to impossible to actually make it and play fulltime from there

Yes let's use a $2200/month car budget.

@bigredhoss

which city? also what are you doing there?

You'll be fine dude. You're in Canada, you got a girlfriend to support you and you seem to be adequate and aware of your state.

The only thing I'd think about if I were you is if I'd actually go into the development industry. If you already dropped it once, chances are you're not as drawn into it, and if you're not you'll just end up being one of those average programmers with good income but not really doing anything interesting. Have you thought of something development/management related? E.g. Business Analyst in IT or Project Manager etc. It still has the development part of stuff, but you also get to touch to another aspects of the company, your job would be much more dynamic than thinking of a structure and then writing it down into a code, after googling for 3 hours

The good part of being a developer is that you'll never be obsolete in your lifetime though. The amount of MORE devs the industry will need in the next 20-30 years is probably more than the number of people currently being employed there

On September 18 2018 05:55 bigredhoss wrote: How much are you making from live poker? What does your GF do? Using $1800 as min. rent feels kind of lazy to me, there's a ton of places in Toronto in decent locations on Airbnb with great reviews under $1k (way under in some cases). Unless sharing a kitchen and bathroom with 1 other person who you'll probably never see anyway really seems like that much of a hardship. In any case good luck with everything

I'm not in Toronto right now. I'm south of it so my rent is much lower. I doubt those Airbnb's are shared with only 1 other person. Really not interested in sharing a place. I'm very introverted and value the peace and privacy of having my own place too much to share. Plus I'll want to walk around naked with GF and sleep in peace without worrying about a potential noisy roommate. I may just be stuck not saving money for the first year since I'm unwilling to share a place.


I don't make much off live anymore. Running bad this year. Enough to pay my expenses. GF makes way more than I do, but we don't live together.

On September 18 2018 08:22 Defrag wrote: Myself, I would do it. Im looking from perspective of someone that's in poker world for 13,5 years now. Looking from my position playing poker for lifetime is close to impsosible to sustain motivation/learning rate and excitement, plus its too unstable/swingy to keep on living without nerves, not to mention the changes in games/law alone could screw you completetly. Sure good and professional poker players make a very decent living, but long term (10+ years) its super hard to maintain motivation and a ton of people quit for less profitable, but stable jobs. I could name 10 people from this forum right now who made a small fortune playing poker in their 20's but still moved away from poker after that. If you are less then 30 year old I wouldnt think twice and hit the bootcamp. 3 months is nothing to have a secure option for a job that will sustain you in case of mind change, especially since there is such a huge growth potential in the future where you can develop to the point of well paid job that has a huge potential in the future - programists will never go out of the job in the future, as world is moving more and more towards having everything connected to computers, including frigging fridges with flat screens. Just try to think long term what is best for you and make you own decision. You have to be sure that you will be happy and satisifed with the job you would want to take instead of poker though, or you will be always looking back.

Yea I can't take the swings anymore, especially since I'm playing live. Live winrate is much higher, but the downswings are so brutally slow to go through.


3 months is not my concern. It's 10kCAD + 3 months living expenses, while not working. And then hussling for an entry position for meh money. But it seems to be my best option. Though I think I'm done looking back on poker. Playing online when you have other options is only a good idea if you think you can retire in the next ~5 years IMO. And playing live poker, well.. live poker players seem to lack a vision for their future - who wants to be playing live throughout their 40s?

On September 19 2018 01:17 hiems wrote: $1800 is alot. I don't think 65k is enough for $1800. Itd be financially retarded imo. Max I'd say would be $1300. Also ideally you should have some investments that earn a theoretical ~4 to 5% return or whatever to offset spending on rent.

Yea it would be financially retarded. I'll try to find something cheaper. I feel the need to have my own place, and if that means not saving much for the first year until I get a salary boost then so be it. One year of not saving shouldn't effect me too much, considering I'll probably be working until ~55 anyways.

On September 19 2018 03:26 Santafairy wrote: going by the 33% of your income rule $1800 is perfect for 65k

Sure, if the 65k was post-tax. It will come to ~49k after taxes.

On September 19 2018 11:22 LemOn[5thF] wrote: lol I pay $320 rent including utilities xD Never understood how can you be a pro poker player at some point and not use that to travel and move to a cheap country for at least a few months. I moved from UK to Czech Republic for Poker and let me tell you it's just so much easier to play online when you're not hemorrhaging money away through fixed costs, there's no point even trying when your rent alone is $1800

Could never create life balance while playing poker. I would have felt even more isolated living in a different country.

On September 20 2018 00:34 RiKD wrote: On the other hand I was thinking today that that was some version of hell.

I just want to be a regular human being now. I'm eager to work the 9 to 5, chit chat with coworkers, eat lunch at starbucks, go home to my nest too exhausted to think life through, screw gf, and look forward to my weekend. I will appreciate my free time more, since I will have less of it. No more uncertainty about my income. No more stress from questioning my ability to survive in this game. No more hiding the fact that I play poker for a living. A new kind of freedom will reveal itself by distancing myself from poker.

On September 20 2018 09:35 LemOn[5thF] wrote: Well yeah I understand family gf etc. but when you pay just rent of $1800 are in a large country where you need a car so your fixed costs will be like what $4k/month? I don't see you having a choice if you wanted to give online poker an actual shot, learn again and grind, it's seems close to impossible to actually make it and play fulltime from there

My rent was only $700 - $900 while playing. I live over 1 hr south from Toronto ATM and rent is much lower here.

On September 20 2018 21:40 Spitfiree wrote: You'll be fine dude. You're in Canada, you got a girlfriend to support you and you seem to be adequate and aware of your state. The only thing I'd think about if I were you is if I'd actually go into the development industry. If you already dropped it once, chances are you're not as drawn into it, and if you're not you'll just end up being one of those average programmers with good income but not really doing anything interesting. Have you thought of something development/management related? E.g. Business Analyst in IT or Project Manager etc. It still has the development part of stuff, but you also get to touch to another aspects of the company, your job would be much more dynamic than thinking of a structure and then writing it down into a code, after googling for 3 hours The good part of being a developer is that you'll never be obsolete in your lifetime though. The amount of MORE devs the industry will need in the next 20-30 years is probably more than the number of people currently being employed there

If I end up finding typical development work tedious and repetitive, then as I gain experience I'll have chances to move into many other career paths like: UX design, product design, management, senior developer, mobile development.

On September 20 2018 21:40 Spitfiree wrote: your job would be much more dynamic than thinking of a structure and then writing it down into a code, after googling for 3 hours

That's depressing. I would definitely prefer a role where there is more versatility involved in the work.

Pretty sure I could have the option to move into Project Management once I gain enough experience as a developer. I think managers of development teams typically have development experience. Maybe I'm wrong..

On September 20 2018 14:56 hiems wrote: Show nested quote + On September 20 2018 09:35 LemOn[5thF] wrote: Well yeah I understand family gf etc. but when you pay just rent of $1800 are in a large country where you need a car so your fixed costs will be like what $4k/month? I don't see you having a choice if you wanted to give online poker an actual shot, learn again and grind, it's seems close to impossible to actually make it and play fulltime from there @bigredhoss which city? also what are you doing there?

I'm in Bogota, I'm teaching math to rich kids at an international school.

You are supposed to aquire capital through poker to then invest so you dont have to take a job, I think the transition from being a poker player to an employee in most jobs is far more difficult than being an entrepenur also probably wasteful skillwise.

Anyway, your anxiety seems to come from postponing and being undecisive, just over this weekend take some time to meditate on what you want to do, and literally write down the plan and follow through, "I dont want to bum it up" its a stupid way to think, do what you must to reach where you want to go.

You already made the mistake of spending your poker profits instead of aquiring capital, dont repeat that same mistake by taking instant comforts instead of choosing the road that will lead you to the biggest success long term.

On September 21 2018 03:25 k4ir0s wrote: I'm not in Toronto right now. I'm south of it so my rent is much lower. I doubt those Airbnb's are shared with only 1 other person. Really not interested in sharing a place. I'm very introverted and value the peace and privacy of having my own place too much to share. Plus I'll want to walk around naked with GF and sleep in peace without worrying about a potential noisy roommate. I may just be stuck not saving money for the first year since I'm unwilling to share a place.

I'm not going to bother checking again but I know for sure at least one of the few sub-$1k places I looked at was shared with only 1 other person. Last year when I was living in Brooklyn I was living with a guy (separate rooms obv, same common areas) who worked as a data scientist comfortably making 6 figures. Probably the most painfully shy/awkward guy I've ever met, and he was fine.

Anyway you're an adult and can put whatever $ value you want on having a place completely to yourself, but I think you're underestimating how easy it is to just avoid people if you want to.

On September 21 2018 07:26 bigredhoss wrote: Show nested quote + On September 20 2018 14:56 hiems wrote:   On September 20 2018 09:35 LemOn[5thF] wrote: Well yeah I understand family gf etc. but when you pay just rent of $1800 are in a large country where you need a car so your fixed costs will be like what $4k/month? I don't see you having a choice if you wanted to give online poker an actual shot, learn again and grind, it's seems close to impossible to actually make it and play fulltime from there @bigredhoss which city? also what are you doing there? I'm in Bogota, I'm teaching math to rich kids at an international school.

nice.

On September 21 2018 04:05 k4ir0s wrote: Show nested quote + On September 19 2018 01:17 hiems wrote: $1800 is alot. I don't think 65k is enough for $1800. Itd be financially retarded imo. Max I'd say would be $1300. Also ideally you should have some investments that earn a theoretical ~4 to 5% return or whatever to offset spending on rent. Yea it would be financially retarded. I'll try to find something cheaper. I feel the need to have my own place, and if that means not saving much for the first year until I get a salary boost then so be it. One year of not saving shouldn't effect me too much, considering I'll probably be working until ~55 anyways.

I don't really want to turn this into a rent vs. own thread but it isn't always better to own. There are calculators out there. There are also a lot of chores that are associated with owning that aren't with renting. There are percentages involved with buying and selling. It's a fallacy to think that owning is better than renting.

There is always this theoretical % that we should be earning. Obviously, the higher the better. I am sure there is like a relatively easy way to beat inflation and costs but as a non-sharp I've never really found it.

We could also turn this into a roommate versus non-roommate thread. Since I am poor, Buddhist, and an anarcho-collectivist I personally wouldn't care if I had a small place with bunk beds at this point but if I had a girlfriend and was living an ordinary life I would much prefer my own place.

Show nested quote + On September 19 2018 03:26 Santafairy wrote: going by the 33% of your income rule $1800 is perfect for 65k Sure, if the 65k was post-tax. It will come to ~49k after taxes

I guess there is no hard and fast rule. It comes down to cash versus costs. I have heard of crazy stories of how people are living in NYC due to the rent there.

Show nested quote + On September 20 2018 00:34 RiKD wrote: On the other hand I was thinking today that that was some version of hell. I just want to be a regular human being now. I'm eager to work the 9 to 5, chit chat with coworkers, eat lunch at starbucks, go home to my nest too exhausted to think life through, screw gf, and look forward to my weekend. I will appreciate my free time more, since I will have less of it. No more uncertainty about my income. No more stress from questioning my ability to survive in this game. No more hiding the fact that I play poker for a living. A new kind of freedom will reveal itself by distancing myself from poker.

Be careful about romanticizing the ordinary life. If you are eager to work the 9 to 5 they will get you on the 8-7. It's nice having some co-worker friends but useless chatter can be tiresome. I suppose it was always nice to have a bit of a bullshit with the co-workers/customers you like. Be careful about entering a state of müdigkeit (tiredness). You may never make it out until it's too late. Depending on the slave master you might not get all your weekends. You may appreciate your free time more or you may be too tired and stressed to enjoy it. There is always uncertainty about income but I will say it is nice to get a more or less fixed amount every month with a potential for bonuses and 401k matching plans. There will always be stress. There will definitely be new kinds of freedom especially if you are playing live at the moment but there will also be new kinds of shackles. Due to my belief system and experiences I encourage everyone to stop playing poker and to do something more in line with right livelihood. Going into the corporate world is tenuous at best but these are the choices we are faced with. You may thrive. You may not. That's life.

Why don't you move in with your girlfriend?

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/former...-apple-cofounder-steve-143333194.html

I haven't done this so plz don't view this as a personal endorsement but have you considered something like Lambda School? No upfront cost coupled with profit share agreement for X amount of salary for x time.

Seems alright even if its fairly new.