RAWR!

Non-existent or unenforced animal protection laws A large portion of the leather comes from countries with non-existent or unenforced animal protection laws, such as India and China. In India the cows are marched to the slaughterhouse for days without food or water. The workers break the cows’ tails and rub chili peppers and tobbacco into their eyes forcing them to get up and walk after they collapse from exhaustion. Most animals are injured or sick when they reach the slaughterhouse. Once inside, their feet are bound together and their throats are cut, often with dirty, blunt knives in full view of one another. The floors are covered with feces, urine, blood and guts. Some animals are even skinned and dismembered alive. False or misleading product labelling The world’s leading leather exporter is China, where there are no penalties for abusing animals on farms. Apart from cattle, sheep and other animals killed for leather, approximately 2 million cats and dogs are killed for their skins each year. Dog and cat skins are used for leather gloves, belts, jacket collar trim, accessories, trinkets and cat toys. The dogs and cats spend their lives in tiny wire cages and they feel the ground beneath their feet for the first time on the day of their slaughter. At the slaughterhouse, the workers grab the dogs with metal pinchers and bash them over the head with a pole. Many dogs don’t fall unconscious, and they cry out and writhe in agony. The cats and dogs are often skinned and hacked to peaces while they’re still alive and struggling to breathe. Dog leather is also produced in Thailand, where the animals are subject to the same abuse as in China. False or misleading product labeling Products made from dog and cat leather are exported throughout the world, and they are usually not labelled, which goes for other leather products as well. Even if you buy shoes ”Made in Italy” the raw materials are probably from China or India. The products can also be intentionally mislabeled. For instance leather products made from dog leather in China can be labelled as sheep leather. Every time you buy leather there’s a very big chance that it came from a horribly abused animal.

Why isn't that beautiful? Why isn't it the future?

$700 is my entire monthly expenses if I do a shoestring budget lol

On May 17 2018 06:43 Loco wrote: Even though the system needs to change, we still have to take personal responsibility for what we consume. But it looks like you can't escape your self-referential narcissistic loop and you don't have a care in the world for the harm that goes into the things you consume. What shocked me is that you see $700 baby-murder boots while you're unemployed and you think it's worth thinking about and sharing here as something that's appealing and interesting. It's just next level disconnectedness. This is the opposite of appealing and interesting to anyone that's not living in your disconnected world. It's not the matrix. Most people aren't experiencing that reality. It's your own.

I do care if it is pointed out to me. I didn't immediately look at boots and check to see what they are made of. As I have said culture has instilled many of these self-centered cravings. B in Kill Bill, Tylder Durden in Fight Club, what GQ tells me to wear on a date is all leathered the fuck up. That can still be my first inclination. I don't have to act on it. I haven't acted on it. The conversation starter was "why do I covet these?" Different products and different price points may be a weird fascination of mine I'll admit but "why do I covet these?" was a serious question. Same with "Why do I covet nice ass? Nice breasts? Symmetry? Model looks?" Why do I think I need a leather jacket, cool belt, chelsea boots, and tattoos to attract a woman I am attracted to? The answer is I don't but I've been told that and shown that most of my life. Specifically with the boots and the tattoos I have been hit on many times by women about these items. You can say most people aren't experiencing that reality but I experience that reality and my friends have experienced that reality.

When I was writing about those boots and status I didn't really like what I wrote because I don't actually think a pair of shoes can make someone "cool" but in certain worlds it can.

This culture exists

Part of this thread for me is saying hey I am a guy that cares about this stuff but I have inclinations. Most people just have the inclinations and never even think about this stuff or haven't thought about this stuff or never will think about this stuff. Most people aren't going to read about it. Instead of Nike ads on tv we need anti-leather ads on tv. We need the Kardashians to speak up about it. Beyonce. Vegan has to become the new cool. Now, it's crazy to think that ethics need branding and advertising but they do. There is a Justice course at Harvard taught by Michael Sandel that is free. People should know about it. There should be access to quality free education. Pigs need rebranding. I mean it is simply the truth that they are clean animals and smarter than dogs. Cows need rebranding. Everything needs rebranding. Giving up leather is pretty easy. That's not a big deal at all. I hem and hawed a lot in this thread about leather jackets and chelsea boots but I obviously don't need those things. No one does. Same with furs. The animal testing is hard to keep track of. The eating vegan is annoying. That is the worst facet. I am mostly vegan now but I still have a piece of fish or some grilled chicken here and there. Actually, I've been eating shrimp because I figure they experience less suffering than chickens or fish and of course I eat clams, mussells, scallops when I can.

On May 17 2018 07:32 LemOn[5thF] wrote: $700 is my entire monthly expenses if I do a shoestring budget lol

Mine too except I covet those boots unlike seemingly all of LP. There's something wrong with me man. I think that is pretty clear. Maybe there is something wrong with all of you! There is something wrong with all of us.

Like, I am kind of curious how ya'll go shoe shopping. You just get the cheapest pair? There is no consideration for aesthetics? I mean you have to care about comfort and longevity right?

These are the last shoes I bought

I went to a specialty running shoe store. Told them I liked Brooks Ghost shoes. They didn't have any. These were the second I tried on. Went for a run around the parking lot. They felt great so I bought them. I don't think this really makes me out to be the sort of madman you all are making me out to be. Maybe if I start talking about how an alpha of the group complimented these shoes and that raises my status in the tribe........ I mean that did happen......... True story. Sometimes I wonder about ya'lls reality.

Speaking of coveting:



What was I doing in my 20s that was so important?

I wish I would have saved the girl with the big ass, the girl with the nice breasts, the girl with a perfectly symmetrical face, etc. so ya'll could know what I am talking about.

But, I don't even know how to host photos so what the fuck?

Vegan is already the "new cool". Look at the google trends. There are tons of documentaries coming out all the time, tons of celebrities and athletes endorsing it, tons of restaurants (even fast food chains) giving veggie options. It's actually a problem that it is the new cool, because it's no longer a genuine ethic of resistance against injustices, and the new vegans are super hopeful and they hold the delusional belief that their pro-capitalist vegan identities, their "I vote with my dollar", actually works, without bothering to critically look at the system.

Being respectable > being cool. Being cool is good for high school kids without an identity beyond the things that they consume as individuals and which they assume represents them. If you wonder why you feel so empty when you're not distracting yourself, that's why. The psychologists and marketers that have shaped consumer capitalism sold you your wants and your identity. It was the individualist consumer type of person who thought they were cool that voted for Reagan and Thatcher and allowed the rise of neoliberalism and it is still its biggest ally today. See the second part of:

It still is high school for much of the world. Even in AA groups which are supposed to be more inline with the spiritual rather than the material. It's not surprising a young poker player gets caught in the material, it's not surprising a young corporate sales guy gets caught up in the material, but AA groups are many times caught in the material.

I remember when everyone coveted a Breitling watch. It was a signifier that you made it in poker. I remember empiremaker2 picking up chicks by saying "hey, check out my $10k watch." It worked. It was a vacuous world we lived in. It is a vacuous world we live in.

I don't know exactly how people view me on here and for the most part I don't care. The thing is I am honest about some of my inclinations and where my fantasies can go. So, yeah, sometimes wants are going to flare up but I don't really have an identity besides just a guy trying to live. Of course being respectable is > than being cool. Everything I am wearing has no discernible branding. I am wearing a plain black t-shirt, plain grey shorts, and plain black shoes. People CAN make judgements based on this. People do that all the time. So, in a way what you wear does represent you to some degree. I always thought I felt empty because the universe is quite empty and I am going to die but I don't know when. Nothing is permanent. Meh, I don't even really want to argue the nuances here. I wouldn't even care if we all want to buzz our heads and wear clothing like in the Matrix. I guess that's similar to being a monk. Honestly, if Yeezy gets his price points down and starts giving it away to the world's poor like he says he is going to do I'll just wear that. See that has been my vision for a long time now. All the best marketer's start marketing vegan and climate change. The best fashion houses are owned by billionaires. They could easily start making clothing for charity. What if the government started subsidizing whole food plant based diets? Copy what Portugal's done with heroin addiction. Copy what Germany has done with prisons. The list is endless. But, ok, I'll watch the video.

I'm an outsider to veganism but it seems like a lot of the movement is ingrained with right wing neoliberal ideology-it advocates individual choices over political ones. It's easy to see that it's much more work for everyone to make their individual choices to stop the mass slaughter of animals than it would be to make a few policy choices.

On May 17 2018 18:10 Loco wrote: Vegan is already the "new cool". Look at the google trends. There are tons of documentaries coming out all the time, tons of celebrities and athletes endorsing it, tons of restaurants (even fast food chains) giving veggie options. It's actually a problem that it is the new cool, because it's no longer a genuine ethic of resistance against injustices, and the new vegans are super hopeful and they hold the delusional belief that their pro-capitalist vegan identities, their "I vote with my dollar", actually works, without bothering to critically look at the system. Being respectable > being cool. Being cool is good for high school kids without an identity beyond the things that they consume as individuals and which they assume represents them. If you wonder why you feel so empty when you're not distracting yourself, that's why. The psychologists and marketers that have shaped consumer capitalism sold you your wants and your identity. It was the individualist consumer type of person who thought they were cool that voted for Reagan and Thatcher and allowed the rise of neoliberalism and it is still its biggest ally today. See the second part of:

shouldn't you care way more about more people adopting veganism than about them doing it for the right reason? :| Based on this post, I almost get the impression that you worry about people seeing that you are vegan and making assumptions about you being some hipster vegan, but that seems entirely in opposition to the philosophical tenets you generally seem to advocate.. I don't mean this insultingly at all, I just genuinely don't understand the 'It's actually a problem that it is the new cool' line of thought - this to me seems like the by far most realistic approach of making more people adopt a vegan lifestyle.. Then there's the self-enhancing effect of more and more people being willing to be vegan if society is more accommodating towards it - which again requires some degree of mainstreaming for it to happen.

It's understandable why you'd think that Drone, but no, that's not it at all. The main reason is related to what Stroggoz said. Veganism has become too tied up with the mainstream politico-economic ideology of the time. It has morphed into this view that the reduction of animal suffering is the goal of veganism, which it clearly is not -- veganism is abolitonist -- and it's operating under the assumption that markets are going to take care of the issue given enough time. Even this goal of suffering reduction is not working out: the number of animals killed is still very much on the rise. As a whole, it's just an unambitious, narrow-sighted movement at its best right now.

But even if someone wants to argue that capitalism is the animals' best friend, and we grant them that, there's still the fact that when you turn to veganism for the wrong reasons, there is every chance that you will do a 180° given enough time. Something like 83% of people who go vegan do not remain vegan for very long, according to the last polls that I checked. You don't see such recidivism rates in people who have genuinely switched for ethical reasons, unless they screwed up the nutrition aspect badly enough. It's obvious that social pressure plays a huge part, and it can only get worse if veganism is no longer an ethic but a fashionable lifestyle. It leaves you vulnerable to future fashion trends or hostile friends and it doesn't sustain the change for very long.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad it's becoming more mainstream, and I don't think individual choices are completely pointless, I'd say they're maybe 25% of the battle at best. I just think people need to be more aware that it isn't sufficient on its own. Here's a presentation going in detail about these concerns if you are interested.

When you say veganism is abolitionist for all animal suffering, surely you can't mean all animals right? since that would be impossible. it could only be part of the animal kingdom. Is there are a cut off point or would vegans place themselves on a spectrum of animal traits and abilities that arn't allowed to suffer.

Abolitionist means that the goal is animal liberation, i.e. the refusal to treat other sentient beings as commodities. Animals, just as we should see each other, are ends in themselves, not things to be used for our own benefit. You can see why the logic is an extension of anti-capitalism/anarchism. Except veganarchists are hard to find, while neoliberal vegans are everywhere. It says nothing about intervening with regards to global animal suffering. Some vegans hold a wild life interventionist stance on that topic and some place bodily autonomy above all.

right, i misread what you wrote. That makes more sense now.

ah. This reasoning makes sense. However, while I'm absolutely favorably inclined towards the abandonment of capitalism, I don't really see it happening anytime soon, nor do I see the abolitionist movement gain significant traction. I think you should still be happy about neoliberals becoming vegan, imo that seems much more likely to happen on a grand-ish scale than neoliberals becoming anarchists, and a large reduction in animal suffering must still be regarded as positive, even if it falls very short of your own ideals.

So, the Chinese are going to cut their meat consumption by 50% or they are just going to get their meat from the US? I think vegans should be happy about this even though it has nothing to do with liberating animals. Cutting consumption could ease the obsession and addiction to meat products. The rich will probably buy there way around it. Imported meat becoming a new status item. It already is a fucking status item. If only we could subsidize whole food plant based diets and stop giving these fucking torture murder factories subsidies. High fructose corn syrup too while we are at it. I am getting too riled up about this. Too many resentments and bitterness leave a guy like me wanting to drink.

I guess it's a good thing I am on a 4th step and I can write on these resentments and talk about them with a sponsor.

Factory farming
U.S. govt. subsidies
Capitalism
Donald Trump
Climate change deniers

The more we discuss the more festering resentments arise.

On May 18 2018 12:05 Liquid`Drone wrote: ah. This reasoning makes sense. However, while I'm absolutely favorably inclined towards the abandonment of capitalism, I don't really see it happening anytime soon, nor do I see the abolitionist movement gain significant traction. I think you should still be happy about neoliberals becoming vegan, imo that seems much more likely to happen on a grand-ish scale than neoliberals becoming anarchists, and a large reduction in animal suffering must still be regarded as positive, even if it falls very short of your own ideals.

The point is that this large reduction is not happening, but vegans are being fooled into assuming that it is happening as veganism is rising in popularity. They don't understand market economy. Supply and demand is not all that there is. As Marine explains in the video above, making veganism profitable is not the same thing as making animal agriculture unprofitable. (see ~5:00 in the video). In fact, both are growing at the same time. It's worth listening to the first half of the video if you don't understand how this can happen.

On May 17 2018 03:38 RiKD wrote: These aren't bad I would never wear those though.

These are really cool

On May 17 2018 16:57 RiKD wrote: Show nested quote + On May 17 2018 07:32 LemOn[5thF] wrote: $700 is my entire monthly expenses if I do a shoestring budget lol Mine too except I covet those boots unlike seemingly all of LP. There's something wrong with me man. I think that is pretty clear. Maybe there is something wrong with all of you! There is something wrong with all of us. Like, I am kind of curious how ya'll go shoe shopping. You just get the cheapest pair? There is no consideration for aesthetics? I mean you have to care about comfort and longevity right? These are the last shoes I bought I went to a specialty running shoe store. Told them I liked Brooks Ghost shoes. They didn't have any. These were the second I tried on. Went for a run around the parking lot. They felt great so I bought them. I don't think this really makes me out to be the sort of madman you all are making me out to be. Maybe if I start talking about how an alpha of the group complimented these shoes and that raises my status in the tribe........ I mean that did happen......... True story. Sometimes I wonder about ya'lls reality.

That seems reasonable if you're a runner and those make running more comfortable for your feet. If you just bought them for style, that's in my opinion way too much for an adult to spend on sneakers. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes though so I shouldn't judge.

I probably have more shoes than a man should have. I've spent $200 on a really nice pair of versatile dress shoes, but I think that's frivolous and I wouldn't do it again. You can get about the same quality for $100 or less at Macy's, Clark's, Nordstrom, etc. I have a couple pairs of shoes that I got from Wish and Old Navy for $20 that look cool and I wear frequently