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lebowski   Greece. May 20 2018 17:54. Posts 9032


  On May 20 2018 01:28 Stroggoz wrote:
In fact he warned me in an email specifically that if I pursued a life of serious scholarly dissidence that it would probably not be good for my life.


you got an email from Chomsky? And I thought it was cool that I saw him irl -_-

new shit has come to light... a-and... shit! man... 

Loco   Canada. May 20 2018 23:06. Posts 19734

It's pretty widely known that Chomsky responds to pretty much everyone who writes to him. I assume he sees it as a moral duty.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. (Mencken) 

Baalim   Mexico. May 21 2018 21:58. Posts 32678


  On May 12 2018 13:02 Loco wrote:
He dabbles into historical revisionism (e.g. Hitler didn't really want to win the war, he just wanted to cause a ruckus and kill as many people as possible).



I remember in one of his videos he said that when Hitler realized defeat was coming his way he increased the lethality of the death camps to destroy as much as possible which isn't what you are saying, but perhaps he did, theres so much hours of content from him.

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Baalim   Mexico. May 21 2018 22:06. Posts 32678


  On May 12 2018 14:28 Loco wrote:
I find that even the reasoning behind that is specious. It's not even just "clean your room, bucko", he has phrased it as such: "Set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world." I'm not aware of any revolutionaries/human rights activists who were that conscientious. Are we to believe that the world's greatest thinkers were all super conscientious? I don't think this is a real Einstein quote, but the point still stands:





I saw a vid where he was pressed againt this "clean your room" thing and he tells an anecdote about I believe a student of his that was concerned about climate change and envornment, but instead of protesting government or something like that he went and engeneered some plastic collector for the ocean and the project is getting some traction.


So he is telling you people that instead of going and bitch to daddy government about the workings of very complex systems which you believe you understand, how about you actually work to solve the problem in any way you can.


I dont see the "clean your room" thing as a be organized but to actually work in things you can control to make a better you and world, pretty alike the stoic ideals you have "evolved" from.

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Baalim   Mexico. May 21 2018 22:22. Posts 32678

interesting Munk Debate, finally they put an elocuent man infront of JBP, he made solid points and JBP looked angry and that part about "I'm not a hurt, I'm appauled I'm not a victim!" looked pretty pathetic.

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Baalim   Mexico. May 21 2018 22:52. Posts 32678


  On May 14 2018 14:43 deathstar wrote:

None of what we are talking about is funny. Hate speech laws would prevent great harm that is being done right now in society. I agree that hate speech laws are dangerous. I do not study hate speech laws so I do not know. I just know freedom of hate speech causes fear, terror, and sometimes even death of people.
Do you really say those words in life? Would you say to an african american person, I have the right to say the N the word? or to a gay person, I have the right to say the F word? Please don't do that. These are hate words, don't use hate words. That's really disgusting that you would change a letter in a word to a say a hate word a different way, that's been banned because its harmful. On these forums, abusive language, racism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia is all outlawed. Its wrong. Someone who is using all these words is ignorant. Of themselves and others. Always.

dumb 1.temporarily unable or unwilling to speak.
People who are unable or unwilling to speak are killing themselves because they are called dumb? No they don't. They look for people who they trust and feel safe with before speaking.



Indeed hatespeech is bad and I wouldnt like people to say hateful things against groups, but if the alternative is to give the authority the power to censor speech, to dictate what people can think and speak about then I'll pick the hate groups 100 times over because their potential for harm to mankind pales in comparison to the weapon you want to craft to smite them.

I would use those words within a reasonable context just as I did, I wasnt insulting anyone, it baffles me that society has adopted literally saying "the N word" in a context when it isn't meant as an insult, its the biggest mistake in language society has made in the last century.

If I dont play diccionary with Loco I wont do it with you either, but pathetic attempt to dodge the argument I made about outlawing the word "dumb".

somehow I think this will all fly over your head, I'm not sure if its just some kind of language barrier or you are just a bit dim tbh.

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Baalim   Mexico. May 21 2018 23:10. Posts 32678


  On May 13 2018 04:40 Loco wrote:

5. This is the part of your post that bothers me the most. This is just pure postcolonial trash talk. "People are always doing whatever they can to exploit the system" -- this is neoliberal brainwash at work. The only people who are exploiting the system are the people at the top who are exploiting the labor of others. They are responsible for ruining everyone else's lives, and the amount of suffering that they will cause to the next generation with their imperialist mindset and their climate science denial (if nothing changes) is going to be unparalleled in human history and it is predictable that it will be the end of our species as a result. These are the real, most uncontroversial problems we face, and you're worried that someone whose life has been controlled by corporate, totalitarian forces throughout all their lives is exploiting the very system that has limited their humanity, degraded them and enslaved them. It's totally backward reasoning.



Living in one of the most civilized countries in the world has left a huge gap in your world vision, I guess its your white privilege


Come live a bit in the 3rd world and you will see how people will indeed exploit from bottom up, for example:

Those things where you pay and get a newspaper and leave the rest can't work in mexico because they would get snap emptied by an asshat, because culture and the utilitarian value for a newspaper in Canada is 0, but a honour system in Canada that would dispense cars would fail too.

You would need to live a few years in a shithole to realize that people will exploit in any way they can from the bottom up too, because frankly you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.



To quote the beloved and well known philosopher, the Joker, "They are only as good as the world allows them to be, ill show you, when the chips are down, these... these civilized people, will eat each other"

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Baalim   Mexico. May 21 2018 23:11. Posts 32678


  On May 14 2018 16:46 VanDerMeyde wrote:

Stop arguing on the internet

My most +EV tip for you my friend. It will cause less tilt and more time to grind

Best regards, long time internet arguing addict that went sober.




I stopped smoking after 10 years, easy as fuck, but this... this is the most insidious and desctructive vice I have lol

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Liquid`Drone   Norway. May 22 2018 00:03. Posts 2779


  On May 21 2018 21:52 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +



Indeed hatespeech is bad and I wouldnt like people to say hateful things against groups, but if the alternative is to give the authority the power to censor speech, to dictate what people can think and speak about then I'll pick the hate groups 100 times over because their potential for harm to mankind pales in comparison to the weapon you want to craft to smite them.

I would use those words within a reasonable context just as I did, I wasnt insulting anyone, it baffles me that society has adopted literally saying "the N word" in a context when it isn't meant as an insult, its the biggest mistake in language society has made in the last century.




haha yeah it is ridiculous how nigger is treated like voldemort. It's like, obviously you don't say it to people. Using nigger as an insult is a quick and easy way to make your own idiocy apparent tot he rest of the world. But if the context is 'using nigger as an insult is racist and if you're a white guy, don't assume that your black friend will think it's funny if you call him that' then you don't have to say 'using the n-word as an insult is racist' etc. There's a legit argument to be made for avoiding using 'rape' metaphorically because rape victims can genuinely get a panic attack type of reaction from simply seeing the word, but that's clearly not the case with 'nigger'.

faggot is much the same, except there it's even more confusing as 'the f word' wouldn't even have any obvious meaning.

lol POKER 

Loco   Canada. May 22 2018 00:40. Posts 19734


  On May 21 2018 22:10 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +



Living in one of the most civilized countries in the world has left a huge gap in your world vision, I guess its your white privilege


Come live a bit in the 3rd world and you will see how people will indeed exploit from bottom up, for example:

Those things where you pay and get a newspaper and leave the rest can't work in mexico because they would get snap emptied by an asshat, because culture and the utilitarian value for a newspaper in Canada is 0, but a honour system in Canada that would dispense cars would fail too.

You would need to live a few years in a shithole to realize that people will exploit in any way they can from the bottom up too, because frankly you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.



To quote the beloved and well known philosopher, the Joker, "They are only as good as the world allows them to be, ill show you, when the chips are down, these... these civilized people, will eat each other"



Notice how you just side-stepped my entire point just to remind me how people act in the world that you defend as the best possible one, and which they didn't get a vote in engineering. Your analysis stops at the action that is committed (stealing) instead of doing any competent global analysis. My entire point was to say that this isn't some fixed human nature and you've done nothing to refute it here. How much petty theft was there under revolutionary Catalonia?

You don't know anything about the abject poverty in my area. The best you have as an argument really is nothing more than a fallacy of relative privation: "if you knew how bad it is elsewhere, you wouldn't complain!" Let alone the fact that these parts of the world don't exist in a vacuum, they affect each other constantly.

It's my vision of the world that's narrow while you are the one relying on quotes from Hollywood movies to make your deep points... ok. Here's a more relevant quote by Upton Sinclair, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” I think it's fair to say that you've confined your view of human nature precisely because it eased your mind and helped you make a living through competition while placing no moral burdens upon you. You can't get any farther than your own self-interested projections as a result. But even though neoliberal capitalism works to produce people like you, it is inarguable that despite its powerfully destructive force, many people aren't like you at all.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. (Mencken)Last edit: 22/05/2018 01:35

Baalim   Mexico. May 22 2018 01:40. Posts 32678

1 - I said its the best possible system for the flawed people that live in it, not that its the best possible way these people can be.

2 - I said it multiple times, I dont think that beheavior is fixed, stop putting words in my mouth, you are making an habit out of that.

3 - my argument isnt "if you knew better you wouldnt comlain", my argument is if you knew better you wouldnt make cliché marxist arguments like the exploitation comes from top to bottom and you would realize the exploitation comes from bottom up and all sides


please keep telling me about canadian poverty and how bad my tongue-in-cheek hollywood quotes aren't deep

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Baalim   Mexico. May 22 2018 01:42. Posts 32678


  On May 21 2018 23:03 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +



haha yeah it is ridiculous how nigger is treated like voldemort. It's like, obviously you don't say it to people. Using nigger as an insult is a quick and easy way to make your own idiocy apparent tot he rest of the world. But if the context is 'using nigger as an insult is racist and if you're a white guy, don't assume that your black friend will think it's funny if you call him that' then you don't have to say 'using the n-word as an insult is racist' etc. There's a legit argument to be made for avoiding using 'rape' metaphorically because rape victims can genuinely get a panic attack type of reaction from simply seeing the word, but that's clearly not the case with 'nigger'.

faggot is much the same, except there it's even more confusing as 'the f word' wouldn't even have any obvious meaning.



I feel someday we are going to burn at the stake when screenshots of us using those words are shown in court

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Loco   Canada. May 22 2018 02:12. Posts 19734


  On May 21 2018 20:58 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +



I remember in one of his videos he said that when Hitler realized defeat was coming his way he increased the lethality of the death camps to destroy as much as possible which isn't what you are saying, but perhaps he did, theres so much hours of content from him.




That was the part and clearly his entire counterhistorical framing is wrong. Here it is being debunked by actual historians (you have to click on the tweet to read the twitter thread).

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. (Mencken)Last edit: 22/05/2018 02:19

Baalim   Mexico. May 22 2018 02:48. Posts 32678

yeah thats the video I saw, and I agree it sounds way more difficult to keep them alive than to kill them, productive slavery requires a stable status-quo when the slaves arent a threat to rebell at all times and obviously its hard to stablish that social dynamic quickly and in the middle of a world war.

But why is this an issue for you? He is claiming Hitler was worse than what people think yet also align him closely with white supremacist

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Loco   Canada. May 22 2018 05:44. Posts 19734

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. (Mencken) 

Stroggoz   New Zealand. May 22 2018 05:51. Posts 4218

I just read a journalistic book called scattered sand. I had no idea those below subsistence level migrants from rural china were exploiting the factory owners, no idea at all!!! Thanks for refuting everything that i thought was completely obvious Baal.


I was GTO in 2007 -wobbly_au 

Stroggoz   New Zealand. May 22 2018 05:55. Posts 4218

you can only be free in china if you sell yourself to the factory owner: True freedom, man these anarcho capitalists are truly in touch with reality. Why do they only seem to exist on the internet??

I was GTO in 2007 -wobbly_au 

Baalim   Mexico. May 22 2018 07:06. Posts 32678


  On May 22 2018 02:01 Loco wrote:
Show nested quote +



The flawed people are not born flawed -- at least not to the degree that you think they are in order to posit capitalism as the best system. You point to their behavior under capitalism as an indictment of their nature, rather than their nature under capitalism. Under capitalism they are not given the chance to be less flawed since they are deprived of the environment necessary to be able to develop their full humanity. They are born to serve the economic interests of the powerful or starve. That is the extent of our freedom under this system. It's the best system for the few who do not care about others or the future, that's evident to anyone who doesn't have blinders on.

You were quoting me responding to the fixed human nature claim made by Spitfiree. It's not putting words into your mouth to re-introduce the context from my words which you quoted. And even if you don't believe it is fixed you still behave and indirectly argue as if it was, so you paying lip service to it is irrelevant.

The people at the bottom are not responsible for the hierarchy, they aren't voluntarily signing up to be at the bottom, so it makes no sense to call them exploiters whenever they make a self-interested decision, unless you believe they would act the same given that they have their basic needs met, and that the hierarchy is merit based. Your argument boils down to saying that everyone needs to exploit everyone under capitalism, which is a truism, not a refutation of anti-capitalist arguments.

The only tongue-and-cheek part of it is the way you presented the joker, it's not the substance of the quote, which you 100% stand behind and believe to be deep. Except it's once again not an indictment of human beings, but of human beings under neoliberal capitalism. The quote doesn't make a broader claim than that.


Yes we are born flawed it has been a constant in our species and almost all animals since we crawled out of the slime and neoliberal capitalism has nothing to do with it lol, you believe this is a trait developed in the last few decades? lol

They exploit whatever they can from the system, and it has nothing to do with "basic needs met", you idea of the economy is some kind of feudal charicature, at least you can see why Marx would make such a mistake in the way the industrial revolution happened, but for people to still have such a wrong concept is crazy, and I'm not saying everyone needs to exploit everyone in capitalism, I'm saying is a system that works under the assumption that humans seek self-interest.

I do not believe that saying people would eat eachother to be deep, I think its obvious no idea how that isn't for people like you, as I theorized earlier perhaps its your sheltered life and made up problems with your neo-emo circle

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Baalim   Mexico. May 22 2018 07:17. Posts 32678


  On May 22 2018 04:51 Stroggoz wrote:
I just read a journalistic book called scattered sand. I had no idea those below subsistence level migrants from rural china were exploiting the factory owners, no idea at all!!! Thanks for refuting everything that i thought was completely obvious Baal.





the same argument as above? I'm beggining to think you both are purpousedly trying to engage I'm what im saying in an effort to strawman my argument.

I'm not saying workers exploit the boss, I specifially said that exploitation didnt come from top the bottom but from everywhere, workers will exploit who they can, people above, below and at the same level of the hierarchy.



Naturally we can rise above this and choose integrity, kindness, filantropy etc, but building a system that depends everyone does is a terrible idea proven by history over and over again

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Loco   Canada. May 22 2018 09:01. Posts 19734


  On May 21 2018 21:06 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +




I saw a vid where he was pressed againt this "clean your room" thing and he tells an anecdote about I believe a student of his that was concerned about climate change and envornment, but instead of protesting government or something like that he went and engeneered some plastic collector for the ocean and the project is getting some traction.


So he is telling you people that instead of going and bitch to daddy government about the workings of very complex systems which you believe you understand, how about you actually work to solve the problem in any way you can.


I dont see the "clean your room" thing as a be organized but to actually work in things you can control to make a better you and world, pretty alike the stoic ideals you have "evolved" from.


Yeah, everyone loves the good ol' bootstraps success story. It's convenient that we receive this story from Peterson instead of the actual student. I don't have any reason to believe that this student believes that individuals should take no action to raise social awareness or work within the system and should just turn themselves into entrepreneurs. It's also a ridiculous example because it happens to be about the one thing that arguably everyone who isn't a conservative cares about but which he doesn't oppose, while what he rants against are social justice issues that have nothing to do with environmentalism but that threaten his position of power in society.

The Stoics didn't believe in a simplistic individual [can control]/social systems [can't control] dichotomy. The foundational tenet of Stoicism is that humans are social animals endowed with reason, and we should use this reasoning faculty to become more virtuous and serve mankind. Even though it is fundamentally a personal philosophy, it held justice as a fundamental virtue, which means it is intrinsically linked to the social and the political. Here is what the philosopher, biologist and notable Neo-Stoic Massimo Puglicci concludes with in his piece on Stoicism and social justice:

"In the end, Stoicism is absolutely compatible with concepts such as social justice, and it is compatible with social activism as well. The Stoics were teachers out to change things for the better, and justice is one of the four cardinal virtues. But they also taught us to be resilient, to behave like rocks when others insult us, because we are trying to be wise." Foolishness we can leave to them."

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. (Mencken)Last edit: 22/05/2018 09:02

 
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