ASL Season 5 - Page 6

what I dont get is, why didnt Flash at least attempt to attack him @ start of game 1 there when he had 2 dragoons and a zealot, he couldve checked if tank was up, which it wasnt he couldve done decent damage - no way 3 marines and an scv holds the ramp

On April 19 2018 21:19 Spitfiree wrote: what I dont get is, why didnt Flash at least attempt to attack him @ start of game 1 there when he had 2 dragoons and a zealot, he couldve checked if tank was up, which it wasnt he couldve done decent damage - no way 3 marines and an scv holds the ramp

Nah, he's not doing any damage there before tank finishes. At best he is risking his units to kill some marines. His units are valuable especially because he is going 1 gate nexus. Marines become more useless as the game goes on. Flash would happily welcome that trade.

It's funny how quickly opinions shift around. After the last ASL, Flash struggled in some smaller events and on streams against the top zergs and looked unbeatable against protoss. Now he has his 1-1-1 build that seems to steamroll every zerg inside12 minutes, the maps are difficult for TvP, and I'm wondering if he's even a favorite against someone who wasnt even on my radar up until a month ago because his PvZ is so much weaker than his PvP/PvT that he couldnt get past the ro24 in previous starleagues.

This isn't a real prediction, but it will be hilarious if the knockout stage goes like this:
shuttle > rain
hero > mind
larva > mini
snow > flash

hero > shuttle
larva > snow

hero > larva, poor guy loses again deep in an ASL to hero zvz

I really like Shuttle. I think he's going to be the #1 Protoss with Bisu gone. He's also the ASL 1 Champion so he knows what it takes to win this tournament. On these maps I think I'd pick him over anyone except Hero.

my predictions

shuttle > rain
hero > mind
larva > mini
flash > Snow

hero > shuttle
flash > larva

flash > hero

On April 20 2018 01:33 blackjacki2 wrote: Show nested quote + On April 19 2018 21:19 Spitfiree wrote: what I dont get is, why didnt Flash at least attempt to attack him @ start of game 1 there when he had 2 dragoons and a zealot, he couldve checked if tank was up, which it wasnt he couldve done decent damage - no way 3 marines and an scv holds the ramp Nah, he's not doing any damage there before tank finishes. At best he is risking his units to kill some marines. His units are valuable especially because he is going 1 gate nexus. Marines become more useless as the game goes on. Flash would happily welcome that trade.

Sorry my bad, wrote the post late, I meant Snow - not Flash, Snow had 2 goons + 1 zealot, while Flash was covering ramp with 3 marines & 1 scv and tank was at around 30% done, so Snow could've potentially gone in and killed a bunch of scvs since Flash will be forced to take them out to block the ramp further, instead he didn't even attempt to do that.

On April 20 2018 08:19 Spitfiree wrote: Show nested quote + On April 20 2018 01:33 blackjacki2 wrote:   On April 19 2018 21:19 Spitfiree wrote: what I dont get is, why didnt Flash at least attempt to attack him @ start of game 1 there when he had 2 dragoons and a zealot, he couldve checked if tank was up, which it wasnt he couldve done decent damage - no way 3 marines and an scv holds the ramp Nah, he's not doing any damage there before tank finishes. At best he is risking his units to kill some marines. His units are valuable especially because he is going 1 gate nexus. Marines become more useless as the game goes on. Flash would happily welcome that trade. Sorry my bad, wrote the post late, I meant Snow - not Flash, Snow had 2 goons + 1 zealot, while Flash was covering ramp with 3 marines & 1 scv and tank was at around 30% done, so Snow could've potentially gone in and killed a bunch of scvs since Flash will be forced to take them out to block the ramp further, instead he didn't even attempt to do that.

I got what you meant, but look again. The tank is 75-80% done when the 2nd goon gets there. He can probably kill the marines but his units get softened and the tank that he knows is about to pop out may snipe them. He's going expo himself so he probably doesn't want to invite any counters from his units getting softened or killed.

got it, i still dont have basic understanding of how the game works then, which actually just proves how fckin hard Brood War is considering I was very high lvl warcraft 3 player so I'm decent @ RTSs

Just watched some Flash vs Larva on stream.

highlights:
-Larva beat Flash on Third World. Flash ignored the isolated map switch area and tried to push the starting area. Larva held him off until he got all the bases running on the other side of the map and then Flash got overpowered by a combination of guardians/muta/scourge/defiler/ling/lurker

-Flash steamrolled Larva on Gladiator -- his 1/1/1 build is really something else. Basically he works off 1 rax, 1 factory, 1 starport, delays his expansion slightly, and adapts his strategy based off what opponent is doing. Starts off with vultures/wraiths for mines+harass+scouting, and switches over to tank+vessel into 5 rax medic+marine. Zerg needs at least 2 gases so they can't do one base play, can't really go muta against fast wraith+vessel and a possible switch to goliaths, cant go only hydra because of the mines so you need overlord speed, can't attack right with ovie speed because of the tanks, and can't get a large force of ultra/ling/defiler fast enough to stop the push. Hydra/Queen is an interesting idea, aiming to broodling the tanks and rush in with hydra before flash gets his medic/marine force up, but I haven't seen it work yet and suspect there's a very small timing window for it, especially since Flash has vessel so quick, but it's probably the best counter. I imagine flash could veer off and switch to medic/marine faster if he sees hydra/queen because he has excellent vision of opponent at all times, but at least it gives zerg a chance, possibly forces flash to change strategy, and allows for zerg to control the game

-flash then beat Larva in a late game PvZ on sparkle. Flash would have been an unreal protoss player lol

-Larva beat flash in a really good ZvZ on transistor. Flash would have been an unreal zerg player too lol

cliffs:
flash is the greatest ever, and the fact that he happens to play terran in this universe does not mean that he is not the best player in other areas of the multiverse where he chose a different race.

Is it legal in tournaments to play random? feels like it could give insane advantage on some maps

On April 20 2018 17:33 Spitfiree wrote: Is it legal in tournaments to play random? feels like it could give insane advantage on some maps

I'm not 100% sure, but I think at the start of the tournament you have to declare your race. So you can be protoss, zerg, terran, or random, but you can't race pick based on opponent.

On April 20 2018 16:47 Daut wrote: Just watched some Flash vs Larva on stream. highlights: -Larva beat Flash on Third World. Flash ignored the isolated map switch area and tried to push the starting area. Larva held him off until he got all the bases running on the other side of the map and then Flash got overpowered by a combination of guardians/muta/scourge/defiler/ling/lurker -Flash steamrolled Larva on Gladiator -- his 1/1/1 build is really something else. Basically he works off 1 rax, 1 factory, 1 starport, delays his expansion slightly, and adapts his strategy based off what opponent is doing. Starts off with vultures/wraiths for mines+harass+scouting, and switches over to tank+vessel into 5 rax medic+marine. Zerg needs at least 2 gases so they can't do one base play, can't really go muta against fast wraith+vessel and a possible switch to goliaths

Can't the zerg go muta +scourge + overlord speed forcing the terran to stay in his base while you gian control of the map?

On April 21 2018 00:41 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On April 20 2018 16:47 Daut wrote: Just watched some Flash vs Larva on stream. highlights: -Larva beat Flash on Third World. Flash ignored the isolated map switch area and tried to push the starting area. Larva held him off until he got all the bases running on the other side of the map and then Flash got overpowered by a combination of guardians/muta/scourge/defiler/ling/lurker -Flash steamrolled Larva on Gladiator -- his 1/1/1 build is really something else. Basically he works off 1 rax, 1 factory, 1 starport, delays his expansion slightly, and adapts his strategy based off what opponent is doing. Starts off with vultures/wraiths for mines+harass+scouting, and switches over to tank+vessel into 5 rax medic+marine. Zerg needs at least 2 gases so they can't do one base play, can't really go muta against fast wraith+vessel and a possible switch to goliaths Can't the zerg go muta +scourge + overlord speed forcing the terran to stay in his base while you gian control of the map?

Doesn't seem to work. from a post on TL by kogeT:

a. if zerg goes standard 3 hath into 9 mutas, Flash goes for mines and vulture speed + drop + vessel with irradiate at 7:00 b. if zerg goes any type of 2 hath muta, flash commonly replies with cloked wraith with mass turret c. if zerg goes for mass hydra, flash adds a quick tank (+mines along the way) and adds a drop d. if zerg goes for mass ling, it's bascially a coin flip (either Flash dies or holds and wins easily). This is tricky as this hits before wraith and many mines on the map, so it comes down to Flash making a bunker in time, getting vulture speed ASAP and trying to hold with scv/wraith/vulture. Ofc with Flash mechanics he is winning most of these games. e. if zerg lurker/ling all in it's usually too slow as Flash has mines that has to be cleared and just makes 2-3 bunkers to deny any aggresion After all that, it's always the 5 rax + tank + mass vessel follow up (commonly with a dropship coming just after his 3-4 vessels to attack 3rd), SK terran or mech switch depending on the map. 80% of games end with that 1st big push, as it hits extreamly early and is so strong with 3-4 vessels with irradiate. (Flash usually moves out with 3 tanks, 4 vessels and anything between 12-24 marines at 9:00 mark). I think what zerg really have to focus on is: - further investigate the potential of aggresive timings before 7:00 mark and what is the best follow up understanding that mass vessel is on the way - develop an alternative style that will defend enough vs wraith/vulture drop and optimize the army to defend the 9:00 push - standard 7:00 mutas + lurker/hive just don't cut it. Maybe some kind of 4 hathery mass hydra with some huge lurker wave just before 9:00? Maybe quick 3 bases purely on hydra? As soon as zerg realizes that this is a 12 gas build zerg should probably go much heavier on drone, maybe threaten some mass ling attacks with it and just before 9:00 have his biggest wave of units ready - develop right reactions to this big 9 minute push. I think what most zergs really struggele is when this timing hit, just before defiler with swarm (even with very quick hive from zerg). Maybe some backstab ideas should be more considered, because zerg just doesn't have enough to fight this at 9:30~ when push is already at the natural All in all, we've seen what Flash does in a past in so many variations. It's just Flash himself that combined this with his perfect gameplay. Previously one of the more common answers from zerg was to acutally go hydra/lurker, and I haven't seen much of that from pro zergs like Larva / SK / Effort. If I were to try something, I would go standard 3 hath, and as soon I see it's 12 gas from zerg, go 5 hath with 3rd base, and only add lair later to make like 12 lurkers at once before 9:00 push (as you don't need lurkers before that, because 5 rax production has to kick in before terran moves out).

Yeah I assume it doesnt work I'd just like to see how vulture speed + drops counter mass mutta lol

I still believe in a hydra/queen timing. obviously haven't tried it against a flash level terran but I've been pretty consistently beating terrans that I would have a very hard time against if I opened 3 hatch muta or whatever doing it.

Haven't seen any pro do it though.

On April 21 2018 02:55 Baalim wrote: Yeah I assume it doesnt work I'd just like to see how vulture speed + drops counter mass mutta lol

Larva is using some taylor made builds that rush to defilers to try and counter it, but they don't seem to work. Two of the games in this series show the build, and another shows his Sparkle TvZ which is absurd

Ro8 starts in 15 minutes. According to GTR on teamliquid.net this is how maps for Ro8 work

each player can thumb down one of gladiator/sparkle/transistor/third world which means the thumbed down map won't be played twice. then the maps are randomly ordered.

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