On April 16 2018 02:30 blackjacki2 wrote:
I think it's ridiculous how much better pros are now than back in the early 2000s. Watch at 1:00:30 of the youtube video. Shuttle drops DTs in Effort's main and Effort runs his drones away before a single drone is killed. This is while he was fighitng zealots with his hydras and maintaining 500 apm. He had no detection in his main, so he didn't see the enemy color on the minimap. All he saw was the blurred movement of the cloaked DT. That happens all the time these days. You can't even walk a DT past an enemy unit without them seeing the cloaked movement. Back in the day DTs would kill packs of lings and workers because they 1 shot them and there was no verbal warning from the game. These days the pros spot it before the DT gets a single kill. I remember Legionairre had a game where he had a DT with 50+ kills or something ridiculous. These days he would be lucky to kill 3 workers of these pros.
I watched the games without sound this morning in bed to not wake gf, but I noticed same thing. At first I assumed he saw the shuttle and was watching for it, but he did it in both his main and natural -- even knowing that there were 2 DTs dropped and that he only killed one by paying that much attention while multitasking and then seeing the shadow of the DT in his main is completely insane.
NewbSaibot: 18 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Because FUCK YOU, Daut
On April 17 2018 02:05 Baalim wrote:
wow amazing games, Shuttle grinded games he should have lost but he just keeps focused when his opponents start to get sloppier
the disruption webs against larva
NewbSaibot: 18 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Because FUCK YOU, Daut
Commentary: "oh my god those corsairs are so grouped up if zerg ensnares one, it ensares all and they cannot run from the scourge"
10s later - zerg ensnares all
corsairs end up cleaning everything
zerg : "gg"
commentary:" we dont know what we're talking about"
did anyone notice action killed his own hydra den in the final game? He attacked it with 2 control groups of hydras while he was being attacked by zealots. Pretty sure it has 850 hp so thats 850 damage he could have put into the zealots. Casters missed it but yhat was a ridiculous blunder.
1
blackjacki2 United States. Apr 18 2018 04:06. Posts 2581
On April 18 2018 02:24 Daut wrote:
What's the schedule for knockout stage? Very excited for Flash vs Snow!
did anyone notice action killed his own hydra den in the final game? He attacked it with 2 control groups of hydras while he was being attacked by zealots. Pretty sure it has 850 hp so thats 850 damage he could have put into the zealots. Casters missed it but yhat was a ridiculous blunder.
he's gonna be smacking himself about that game 4 years from now. Seemed like he just.. collapsed. Micro was off in every battle, no colony in the third. And the whole killing the den part obviously a huge mistake. I think zealots were damaging it too though? I really think that was just like 'omg I'm doing it'-offline nerves completely fucking with him. Hard to believe it was the same zerg playing game 1 and game 5.
Like the game on third world, the offensive hatchery was a pretty dumb allin. But his micro was sharp that game, very good scourge engagements etc. But the final game on gladiator was just.. terrible execution all the way.
did anyone notice action killed his own hydra den in the final game? He attacked it with 2 control groups of hydras while he was being attacked by zealots. Pretty sure it has 850 hp so thats 850 damage he could have put into the zealots. Casters missed it but yhat was a ridiculous blunder.
he's gonna be smacking himself about that game 4 years from now. Seemed like he just.. collapsed. Micro was off in every battle, no colony in the third. And the whole killing the den part obviously a huge mistake. I think zealots were damaging it too though? I really think that was just like 'omg I'm doing it'-offline nerves completely fucking with him. Hard to believe it was the same zerg playing game 1 and game 5.
Like the game on third world, the offensive hatchery was a pretty dumb allin. But his micro was sharp that game, very good scourge engagements etc. But the final game on gladiator was just.. terrible execution all the way.
why do you think the proxy hatch was dumb? the map is pretty big and there is a good chance he doesnt get to scout the opponents base before the lings come out
proxy hatch like is dumb because every good protoss knows that this is what a blocked ramp means. I think he was slightly unlucky with the timing of his drone coming to mini's base - I think the building nexus could probably see the drone entering his base, and a drone entering your base without you seeing any more of it is 100% a proxy hatch. But even if he had not seen the drone, when a zerg is wasting minerals blocking a ramp with a drone, it's 100% a tell that something iffy is going on. scouting your main is going to be the first thing you do at that point. I actually think it would have had a better chance at succeeding if he hadn't blocked his ramp - because then it would look more like he was expanding to the other side of the map.
The only way it's not stupid to me is if there was somehow some hidden mindgame, like a bunch of action replays being leaked showing that he was doing a drone block into an entirely different followup. (This is actually not impossible - there was a new patch a couple days before this asl group was played, which through either some bug or oversight enabled people to access replays of the recently played matches of any player who didn't take precautions to hinder it. I know people hurried up and got a couple hundred replays of different players before people had the time to fix the problem.) Without something like that, it's a stupid opening with a very high % of failing, and if it fails, you're dead. Zerg has other allins, like speedilng into 3 hatch hydra or 2 hatch muta, which are both way, way better because they are really difficult to correctly identify AND they have a viable transition even if scouted. Even if the proxy hatch had a 30% chance of going unscouted, and if it gave him a 100% win when that happened (I think this is really generous), he'd have something like 2% at most in games where it was scouted.
Oh i agree 100% on the drone blocking the ramp, I was going to mention it actually, about the drone not leaving afaik Drones leave the base to return mining and overlord is on its way.
Everyone sucks at spoilers lol, half the time I type [spoil] instead of [spoiler], but I think after 24-48 hours it's ok to post normally.
Game 5 was very badly played by action. Attacking his own den, no spore in the third, and bad micro in dealing with harass were giant mistakes, but also why did he even choose that location for his 3rd instead of his 2nd natural? It's just asking for trouble when dealing with post-corsair dt+zealot harass. That said, if you eliminate any 2 of the mistakes he's still a pretty significant dog in the game given how well Rain was playing (late expo hatch too) and the remaining mistakes so he probably shouldn't feel like he threw away a won game or anything like movie did in game 1 vs mini by not dealing with the zealot run bys or storm drops.
Also think the proxy hatch on third world was really dumb, especially in hindsight: like drone said, he barely has any win equity after it's spotted, yet he still fought on pretty well indicating he had good chances in a straight up game -- I think his equity in a normal game was >50%. It's just way too likely to be spotted due to the ramp block and not taking natural. Think it's a better idea on a map like Tau Cross that has a large and weirdly shaped main base that isn't completely scoutable by placing the first 3-4 pylons and doesn't have a 2nd natural that can combine as a defense point for your main.
RO8 looks fun. Predictions:
Rain > Shuttle in 5, but very close series
Hero > Mind in 4
Flash > Snow in 5
Larva > Mini in 4
How do the map selections work? Does the #1 seed get to pick which map is played in games 1 and 5?
I went back and watched a few old dual fpvods of Snow vs Flash -- my god is Snow amazing at PvT. He's extremely live here, maybe even 40-45% given the maps. Check out these games from October:
NewbSaibot: 18 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Because FUCK YOU, Daut
Last edit: 19/04/2018 05:20
1
blackjacki2 United States. Apr 19 2018 08:28. Posts 2581
From stream games I've seen it's not too uncommon to see zerg fast expo or even double expo to the other side on Third World while blocking their ramp in ZvP. Maybe Action was hoping Mini would think that and then preoccupy himself with finding the hidden base before he could realize the hidden base was in his own main. I also think Mini's warping Nexus saw the drone sneak into the main. Either way I agree it's a dumb strategy unless you think you're a huge underdog in a straight up game.
1
blackjacki2 United States. Apr 19 2018 08:35. Posts 2581
Daut, I believe each player picks a map to "ban" and the banned map can't be played twice. Then I think it's random which of the unbanned maps gets played twice. Not 100% sure.
this draw is like the worst possible for flash. Snow has a very legit chance.
Also I think blackjack is right about the map banning process. Or I know that the first part is right, and I'm also not 100% sure about whether it's random which unbanned map gets played twice.
lol POKER
1
NMcNasty United States. Apr 19 2018 18:54. Posts 2039
Never been a big ZvP player but I think it’s my favorite non-Flash matchup to watch. Just amazing that there are so many viable builds (3 stargate corsair!). Just wish zergs would be a little less greedy, seems like there’s a 100% chance you’ll get storm or dt dropped so you need at least one spore(and probably sunken) up at each base before going for sixth hatch.
United States. Apr 16 2018 04:01. Posts 8955
Plays completely differently from 1gates in the past though.
