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What happens when you die?

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RiKD    United States. Apr 27 2017 07:20. Posts 8444

This topic has been coming up a lot for me recently. I have found a lot of the different answers from people entertaining and thought provoking. For me, I really don't know. I always assumed it was just nothingness. The brain and consciousness just die. I don't believe in a soul. Maybe our consciousness stay intact somehow or are transferred.

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Baalim   Mexico. Apr 27 2017 07:54. Posts 34246

The belief that we somehow maintain consciousness comes from wishful thinking and fear from small and egocentrical minds that despise experiencing non-consciousness every nigh in their life and for billions of years before they were spawned into existence refuse to acknowledge the obvious.

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Spitfiree   Bulgaria. Apr 27 2017 09:08. Posts 9634

Whatever it is, must be quite good, no one has yet returned from it.


Skoal   Canada. Apr 27 2017 10:10. Posts 460

everything is a wave, a cycle, what has happened once will most likely happen again

but is 'your' consciousness even happening right now, who can know


Baalim   Mexico. Apr 27 2017 10:46. Posts 34246


  On April 27 2017 09:10 Skoal wrote:
everything is a wave, a cycle, what has happened once will most likely happen again




how did you reach to that conclusion?

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RiKD    United States. Apr 27 2017 19:19. Posts 8444

It is fun to talk about reincarnations and karma but I just do not understand how it goes from more or less one lucid consciousness transferred to a baby with a new consciousness with traces of past lives and inheriting past karmas. I do like the idea though that reincarnations and karma would reduce variance. There is a lot of luck and variance if we assume nothingness, consciousness, nothingness. I am ok with that though. I always ascribed to randomness in this universe. It is kind of a hard truth that we can never really confirm but I was never one to pray to fairies and gods. No free will and no gods is where I am at. Sometimes I would like to believe that there is matter within me that I do not understand that could link up with dark matter or something else in some higher consciousness or that consciousness travels to other dimensions especially if they would be blissful. Of course, it is nice to fantasize about that. If we assume the universe is infinite there would be infinite mes and infinite yous and infinite dimensions and it gets complicated. The universe is beyond my comprehension. So is a god. So is death. So is consciousness. Actually, I think actually trying to carve out a decent life in nothingness, consciousness, nothingness, no free will, no gods is the most ethical way of life.


Spitfiree   Bulgaria. Apr 27 2017 21:25. Posts 9634


  On April 27 2017 09:46 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +



how did you reach to that conclusion?


It's one of the leading theories about the world. Arrival ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2543164/?ref_=nv_sr_1 ) is a good movie that presents it and Slaughterhouse FIve ( https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4981.Slaughterhouse_Five ) is a good book. I've read about it in some other book as well, but cant remember atm.

The theory about us living in a matrix could also be interpreted that way in some cases e.g. program resets every N amount of time.


This kind of discussion is quite useless imo, it literally doesn't matter as even if anyone reaches a good conclusion thats well-founded, neither of our consciousness would REALLY acknowledge it. A person would most likely literally go insane before recognizing such truths. I'd say thats why so many physicists turn crazy at some point. Our minds cannot comprehend and believe such statements.

P.S. Then again I could just be narrow minded

 Last edit: 27/04/2017 21:33

Baalim   Mexico. Apr 27 2017 22:01. Posts 34246

The simulation theory has many holes in the sense of its purpose, design and morality of it, in The matrix they actually deal with the obvious question of if it is a simulation why so much suffering and in the movie is because in utopias humans woke up which explains suffering but its ultimately a silly explanation.

You fall in some of the same problems with a diety, the simulator runners would have to be evil to permit such painful existences.


But what I was asking is why Dan says thats as a fact, he isnt just entertaining the possibility but saying everything is a wave or a cycle, and I am asking him why he reached that conclusion.

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Baalim   Mexico. Apr 27 2017 22:11. Posts 34246


  On April 27 2017 18:19 RiKD wrote:
It is fun to talk about reincarnations and karma but I just do not understand how it goes from more or less one lucid consciousness transferred to a baby with a new consciousness with traces of past lives and inheriting past karmas. I do like the idea though that reincarnations and karma would reduce variance. There is a lot of luck and variance if we assume nothingness, consciousness, nothingness. I am ok with that though. I always ascribed to randomness in this universe. It is kind of a hard truth that we can never really confirm but I was never one to pray to fairies and gods. No free will and no gods is where I am at. Sometimes I would like to believe that there is matter within me that I do not understand that could link up with dark matter or something else in some higher consciousness or that consciousness travels to other dimensions especially if they would be blissful. Of course, it is nice to fantasize about that. If we assume the universe is infinite there would be infinite mes and infinite yous and infinite dimensions and it gets complicated. The universe is beyond my comprehension. So is a god. So is death. So is consciousness. Actually, I think actually trying to carve out a decent life in nothingness, consciousness, nothingness, no free will, no gods is the most ethical way of life.



Karma makes no sense at all for many reasons, if you have no recollection of your past lives it is no punishment nor reward, you are essentially a clean consciousness.

Also it doesnt make sense in a world with changing population and they believe in reincarnations in animals as punishment and come on... if you reincarnate in a cockroach who cares, its not your consciousness it cannot "fit" into a cockroach's brain so again it is no punishment at all.

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maryn   Poland. Apr 28 2017 02:33. Posts 1208

theres a chance we all are Boltzman brains


Daut    United States. Apr 28 2017 07:47. Posts 8955

Enjoy Arby's.

NewbSaibot: 18 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Because FUCK YOU, Daut 

Baalim   Mexico. Apr 28 2017 09:16. Posts 34246

Interesting vid but all particles in the universe arent randomly moving, there are forces interacting so every particle in the universe cannot coincede in one point just by chance no matter how low the probabilities, not even a Boltzmann brain should happen since again, particles dont behave that way

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napalm   Poland. Apr 28 2017 11:24. Posts 171

you can be aware when you sleep and you can be aware after you're dead and on the other hand you can be conscious but not aware during your wakeful state (as most people are most of the time)


Spitfiree   Bulgaria. Apr 28 2017 14:23. Posts 9634


  On April 28 2017 10:24 napalm wrote:
you can be aware when you sleep and you can be aware after you're dead and on the other hand you can be conscious but not aware during your wakeful state (as most people are most of the time)



This has to be the most awesome way I've seen someone call people idiots :D


Santafairy   Korea (South). Apr 28 2017 16:16. Posts 2224

you stop living

It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen 

CrownRoyal   United States. Apr 28 2017 18:38. Posts 11385


  On April 27 2017 09:46 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +



how did you reach to that conclusion?


It's really not that complicated, the universe is huge. Also, in the grand scheme of things, we are rather simple. If something has happened once that inherently makes it possible. Anything that is possible will inevitably happen given a large enough space and a large enough amount of time.

If we load up every member of lp.net on a spaceship, assuming we have the technology to not "die" we will inevitably run into a copy of one of us. A literal, down to the last particle copy. Essentially the same thing as a boltzman brain that was linked above.

WHAT IS THIS 

CrownRoyal   United States. Apr 28 2017 18:39. Posts 11385

Assuming the universe is truly infinite, or there are at the very least an infinite number of universes we have had this conversation before and we will have it again.

WHAT IS THISLast edit: 28/04/2017 18:40

Floofy   Canada. Apr 28 2017 22:27. Posts 8708

I used to think it is almost certain nothing ever happens again after death, but i recently changed my mind.

Let's say we take the following hypothesis as fact:
#1 We never existed before being born

This means we went from "non existence" to "existing" state. If it happened once, why could it NEVER happen again?

That being said, i guess it is possible the future existence could be different from this one.
Actually, the theory where we are going to relive the same life over n over for eternity sounds a little scary to me (i guess its better than dying forever obviously).

Assuming there is NOTHING after life, i also feel the human brain sees death as a lot worse than it really is.
We feel extremely bad for our grand father that dies, but don't give a shit about our zergling in starcraft that dies to a zealot. But in reality, when you think about it, you almost should feel worse for the zergling. Right now, both your grand father and the zergling does not exist anymore. There isn't one luckier than the other, both don't exist and will never exist again. But the grand father at least had the chance in the past of having a great life. The zergling is a bit like a baby that dies at birth... he never had the chance to live.

One thing i'm pretty confident in is, there probably isn't anything we can do in this life to change what will happen in the next, and worrying about it isn't very constructive. Best to just live your life fully, and hopefully what happens after life is good.

james9994: make note dont play against floofy, ;(Last edit: 28/04/2017 22:27

Skoal   Canada. Apr 29 2017 13:47. Posts 460


  On April 27 2017 09:46 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +



how did you reach to that conclusion?


the gods have displayed it again and again


whamm!   Albania. Apr 30 2017 07:35. Posts 11625

our lives are so small and so sort in the overall scheme of things i dont think it has to have an afterlife lol
people are just so arrogant that's all


Santafairy   Korea (South). Apr 30 2017 07:44. Posts 2224


  On April 28 2017 17:38 CrownRoyal wrote:
Show nested quote +



It's really not that complicated, the universe is huge. Also, in the grand scheme of things, we are rather simple. If something has happened once that inherently makes it possible. Anything that is possible will inevitably happen given a large enough space and a large enough amount of time.

If we load up every member of lp.net on a spaceship, assuming we have the technology to not "die" we will inevitably run into a copy of one of us. A literal, down to the last particle copy. Essentially the same thing as a boltzman brain that was linked above.


the universe will move away from itself faster than you can sample for an exact copy of yourself by traveling through it

It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen 

Baalim   Mexico. May 01 2017 01:22. Posts 34246


  On April 29 2017 12:47 Skoal wrote:
Show nested quote +



the gods have displayed it again and again



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Baalim   Mexico. May 01 2017 01:24. Posts 34246


  On April 30 2017 06:44 Santafairy wrote:
Show nested quote +


the universe will move away from itself faster than you can sample for an exact copy of yourself by traveling through it



This among other things make that impossible, people confuse spacial infinity to infinity of possibilities, our universe has laws and clear paths that wont permit things to happen, I explained by those boltzman brain are not possible adnt he possibility of all particles moving to a single piont recreating the big bang is 0 since it violates the laws of nature

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Baalim   Mexico. May 01 2017 04:26. Posts 34246


  On April 28 2017 21:27 Floofy wrote:

This means we went from "non existence" to "existing" state. If it happened once, why could it NEVER happen again?




Nobody says it couldn't happen, you could very well reincarnate in a Panda that shoots lasers out of his eyes in another planet, but we have no reason to believe so.

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LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. May 01 2017 07:28. Posts 15163

one answer
ggnore
only way to stay "alive" is through children.

93% Sure!  

Santafairy   Korea (South). May 01 2017 11:24. Posts 2224

how many liters of infant smoothie do you have to baptize yourself with daily to stay alive, lemon?

It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen 

RiKD    United States. May 01 2017 18:37. Posts 8444

Infant smoothie or "God's Grace" will save us all! Everything positive is "God's Grace." Everything negative is a blessing in disguise. It is all part of God's Will. I guess that is one way to look at the world. Only people praying a certain way receive grace, blessings, heaven. It is all a bit ridiculous. All I have to do is commit a terrorist act and I am put in a room full of groupie virgins. They are making terrorism Rock n Roll. No wonder there is no fixing of that situation.

I am cool if we put god's will into parenthesis, "God's WIll." It is just how we were made, how we were conditioned, and the randomness moving forward. That is "god's will." "God's Grace" is basically just luck. It is all just luck and randomness. There will always be groundlessness and uncertainty. There will always be suffering. Let the consciousness live on and it will be just more of the same. Heaven would be a simulation of smooth, digestible bliss. Even that would get dissatisfying. Heaven is a walk on the beach on a beautiful day. Everything loses its luster. Even the beach. Even the sun. The sun will die one day. Hell, people are probably going to start to get pretty fucked in like 50 years. BUT THAT IS WHEN JESUS WILL SAVE US!!! Living entire lives of excess and sin in a world where zombies do not exist and Jesus will save us. Oh my god... Oh my goodness... Oh my grace... kill me now... but not really I do not want to die. Uncertainty is a mother fucker. That is my god. Uncertainty and Chaos. Whether or not consciousness continues or not after my heart stops is up to them.

 Last edit: 01/05/2017 18:37

lebowski   Greece. May 01 2017 22:03. Posts 9205


  On May 01 2017 06:28 LemOn[5thF] wrote:
only way to stay "alive" is through children.


by the time you're a grandfather you'll share 25% of your DNA with your grandchildren and the percentage isn't getting higher as the generations pass.
Better try some sort of brain data upload imo

new shit has come to light... a-and... shit! man... 

TimDawg    United States. May 02 2017 09:40. Posts 10197

I've really come to enjoy Baal's posts on these types of topics as I've grown older

online bob is actually a pretty smart person, not at all like the creepy fucker that sits in the sofa telling me he does nasty shit to me when im asleep - pinball 

JohnnyBologna   United States. May 02 2017 20:46. Posts 1401

{When you die you cease to exist, henceforth the word death. Karma, reincarnation, heaven, hell, is all made up propaganda to control the masses.

All this stuff about simulations is just speculation in an attempt to figure the grand scheme of things just like everything else. Just because we cannot prove it's not true does not make it any more true than the theory of God.

To assume we even have an afterlife because we are spiritual beings shows, the insecurities humans have as a whole.
Humans cannot be content with life the way it is now. Instead, there must always be more, they must go seeking for another one that doesn't exist in the afterlife. Even there hasn't been the least bit of evidence to support this claim, people hold onto this 'idea' as a glimmering light of hope, because there just might be a chance that there is more to life than right now. And that is why faith is one of the most powerful things in the world today. It gives hope for people to persevere in life, even when the reason can be non-existent. }

Just do whats right 

CrownRoyal   United States. May 02 2017 22:11. Posts 11385


  On May 01 2017 00:24 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +



This among other things make that impossible, people confuse spacial infinity to infinity of possibilities, our universe has laws and clear paths that wont permit things to happen, I explained by those boltzman brain are not possible adnt he possibility of all particles moving to a single piont recreating the big bang is 0 since it violates the laws of nature



I'm not really qualified to argue, although I suppose(?) no one here is either.

I'm not sure how it matters if space is expanding, or how it makes it impossible for there to be a boltzman brain existing at some point from a 4d POV of our universe. It might be a stretch to say we would find an identical copy of ourselves with our narrow spectrum of vision but to say that there wouldn't be a copy from a 4d POV of our universe seems uninformed.

WHAT IS THISLast edit: 02/05/2017 22:12

Expiate   Bulgaria. May 03 2017 01:08. Posts 236

@OP: It is not so far from now when people will probably have more information what happens when one dies since it is similar to what happens with *you* after you teleport and teleportation does not sound like fiction any more.

Personally I think the options are two:
1) Materialistic - consciousness dies with brain and *you* never exist any more.
2) Non-materialistic - *you* experience different qualia in different time/universe etc.

Of course as an idealist I believe in option 2). Also, the funny thing with teleportation is that people won't know objectively if one's consciousness stays the same, since you will have to teleport yourself to understand.


Baalim   Mexico. May 03 2017 01:36. Posts 34246


  On May 02 2017 21:11 CrownRoyal wrote:
Show nested quote +



I'm not really qualified to argue, although I suppose(?) no one here is either.

I'm not sure how it matters if space is expanding, or how it makes it impossible for there to be a boltzman brain existing at some point from a 4d POV of our universe. It might be a stretch to say we would find an identical copy of ourselves with our narrow spectrum of vision but to say that there wouldn't be a copy from a 4d POV of our universe seems uninformed.



Particles do not move in absolute random patterns as they are governed by the laws of physics like for example, planets and stars are not shaped by randomness, but by gravity, so the phenomena in the universe is always constrained to these laws, so a thing like all particles moving purely by chance to the same spot recreating a big bang is not possible.

Thats why spacial infinite does not mean infinite possibilities, it means infinite possibilities within the laws of physics.

Also we are coming from a big assumption that the universe is indeed infinite, and isotropic

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Baalim   Mexico. May 03 2017 01:42. Posts 34246


  On May 03 2017 00:08 Expiate wrote:
@OP: It is not so far from now when people will probably have more information what happens when one dies since it is similar to what happens with *you* after you teleport and teleportation does not sound like fiction any more.

Personally I think the options are two:
1) Materialistic - consciousness dies with brain and *you* never exist any more.
2) Non-materialistic - *you* experience different qualia in different time/universe etc.

Of course as an idealist I believe in option 2). Also, the funny thing with teleportation is that people won't know objectively if one's consciousness stays the same, since you will have to teleport yourself to understand.



No you dont, if you teleport someone (it seems you are defining it as disintegrating someone and recreating it somewhere else with new atoms) all you create is a continuous consciousness or if you create a new consciousness and the other one dies you still dont know where that other consciousness go.

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asdf2000   United States. May 03 2017 01:54. Posts 7690

i go on living as everything else because my life is as much an illusion as their lives aren't


so if i stop experiencing "me" it's pretty irrelevant, because what isn't important is who is experiencing, but rather what is being experienced. the "who" is an ego thinking it's more important than all of the rest of the universe


or, said different:

the nature of qualia (conscious experience) is such that it comes with a perspective of a "self". But qualia itself has a basis, consciousness is one thing. The illusion of separation is part of what we experience, it's what makes us think we are separate.

There is only one experiencer, it experiences you and I and everything, and the nature of those experiences give the illusion of separation between them.

When I die, the experiencer, which is what I really am, goes on experiencing everything else.

Grindin so hard, Im smashin pussies left and right.Last edit: 03/05/2017 02:17

Baalim   Mexico. May 03 2017 02:34. Posts 34246


  On May 02 2017 08:40 TimDawg wrote:
I've really come to enjoy Baal's posts on these types of topics as I've grown older




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Baalim   Mexico. May 03 2017 02:43. Posts 34246


  On May 03 2017 00:54 asdf2000 wrote:
i go on living as everything else because my life is as much an illusion as their lives aren't


so if i stop experiencing "me" it's pretty irrelevant, because what isn't important is who is experiencing, but rather what is being experienced. the "who" is an ego thinking it's more important than all of the rest of the universe


or, said different:

the nature of qualia (conscious experience) is such that it comes with a perspective of a "self". But qualia itself has a basis, consciousness is one thing. The illusion of separation is part of what we experience, it's what makes us think we are separate.

There is only one experiencer, it experiences you and I and everything, and the nature of those experiences give the illusion of separation between them.

When I die, the experiencer, which is what I really am, goes on experiencing everything else.



I knew when I read the word Qualia earlier that this thread was gong to turn into crap

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Loco   Canada. May 03 2017 04:05. Posts 20963

Nothing crappy about discussing qualia in a proper context, but the word's being used in a confusing manner here. Qualia is not synonymous with conscious experience or ego. It's more like the content of conscious experience which is unobservable in others and unquantifiable in us. Expiate's view that there is going to be a 'you' that 'experiences qualia' after passing is confusing. Obviously, energy is never created nor destroyed, so "you" in essence are not going to die... but in every meaningful way - yes, you will die, and as an animal, you will always live fearing that death, whether you are conscious of it or not. You could not care less about the raw materials that constitute you and which will be recycled, you care about your ego, your genes. Your current biological structure. You were programmed by evolution for the singular purpose of maintaining that structure so you can pass on your genes.

Travis' post about non-duality/the illusion of the self is not half bad (if you ignore the mentions of qualia) although that message has become kind of a cliché -- it reminds me of the many times I've seen people who start waxing poetic after they've read some Buddhism or some Alan Watts and they try to imprint some Eastern wisdom on everyone. Somehow that wisdom never seems to translate into them living any more wisely though. (Not saying that this applies to you, Travis.)


  so if i stop experiencing "me" it's pretty irrelevant, because what isn't important is who is experiencing, but rather what is being experienced.



How is it irrelevant? Are you saying human consciousness is somehow equivalent to a rock or a pile of ashes because they have some kind of experience too and who are we to discriminate?




  consciousness is one thing. The illusion of separation is part of what we experience, it's what makes us think we are separate.



There's a catch 22 here. If what we experience as reality is illusion, then we can't know of any absolute from our unknowingness. Now I suppose you might say something along the lines of, "it's just our senses that are unreliable and can't grasp the interconnectedness of everything, but if you go within, you can find the truth and confirm it for yourself." To that I'd simply say: First, I'm skeptical of anyone who claims to have done this, especially in the Western world, and secondly, you can just as easily dismiss it as an illusion, especially if someone used drugs to come to that realization.

I would also add the following: our senses were shaped by evolution and they serve their purpose. That purpose is not to know or to transcend anything (obviously). If we were to abandon them in the quest of some transcendent reality, we would no longer be suited for living and procreating, so we would die and become extinct as a species. What is being preached as the way to enlightenment would then have to be seen as a maladaptation. I guess there's a kind of poetic irony there: if you believe in the teleological argument that Gaia or this one experiencer/the Absolute/God needed us in order to know itself, only to end up destroying itself... I mean, you'd have to say that is one insane God. That would also mean that Ulrich Horstmann was the only philosopher who saw it coming, to a certain extent.

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 03/05/2017 05:06

Loco   Canada. May 03 2017 05:18. Posts 20963

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount 

Baalim   Mexico. May 03 2017 05:42. Posts 34246

I dont mind the word itself (Qualia), its just one of a list of buzzwords when you know more often than not some sophistic babble is coming your way, epistemology is another favorite one.

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Floofy   Canada. May 03 2017 06:07. Posts 8708


  On May 01 2017 03:26 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +



Nobody says it couldn't happen, you could very well reincarnate in a Panda that shoots lasers out of his eyes in another planet, but we have no reason to believe so.


We obviously can't know for sure what will happen, but the best we can do is try to find out the most likely outcome

I think we can both agree hell and heaven are fairly unlikely outcome.
What i tried to point out in my post is, the "we never exist again" outcome isn't as likely as people think. Because one thing we DO know is we used to not exist, and we suddenly existed. It happened once. So it isn't insane to think it can happen again.

Let's group the outcomes in 3 different categories:

A) Wishfull thinking: Hell, heaven, Vallhalla, things like that.
B) Reincarnation: Our own self is gone forever, but we do get to exist again, in some other form, in this world. Maybe on another planet or something.
C) We don't exist ever again.

I get the feeling most people on earth are either at 80%+ on A, or 80%+ on C, but me i personally think its like a coin flip between B and C.
And as insane as it might seem, i actually think the C outcome isn't that much worse than B. The thought of reincarnating into random stuff for eternity scares me a little actually. A lot of existences seems to be absolutly awfull. Just think of most animals's life today....

james9994: make note dont play against floofy, ;(Last edit: 03/05/2017 06:11

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. May 03 2017 10:48. Posts 9634


  On May 01 2017 03:26 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +



Nobody says it couldn't happen, you could very well reincarnate in a Panda that shoots lasers out of his eyes in another planet, but we have no reason to believe so.


You make it sound like we have reasons to believe "non-existent" state is more likely. Thing is there are way too many possibilities, obviously we d prefer to believe in "life" after death, but all scenarios are possible. I'd like to see any meaningful argument supporting either development... there aren't any, its all just speculation we can't back up. There are way too many things we dont understand as species for such discussion to be productive from a pragmatic point of view. If you d like to go into philosophical part then thats another thing

P.S. Floofy your groups are just....

 Last edit: 03/05/2017 10:49

Expiate   Bulgaria. May 03 2017 11:04. Posts 236


  On May 03 2017 00:42 Baalim wrote:
No you dont, if you teleport someone (it seems you are defining it as disintegrating someone and recreating it somewhere else with new atoms) all you create is a continuous consciousness or if you create a new consciousness and the other one dies you still dont know where that other consciousness go.

Creating as you wrote "continuous consciousness" is exactly getting more info if we use the definition you wrote and I assumed. The other option ("create a new consciousness" ) still don't provide any new info.


  On May 03 2017 09:48 Spitfiree wrote:
its all just speculation we can't back up.

True, but speculation is not something wrong by itself. The Greeks speculated about the order of the planets 2k years ago and now we can look back at their speculations and put ourselves better in their pov (how they perceived the surrounding world etc).


asdf2000   United States. May 03 2017 11:45. Posts 7690


  On May 03 2017 04:42 Baalim wrote:
I dont mind the word itself (Qualia), its just one of a list of buzzwords when you know more often than not some sophistic babble is coming your way, epistemology is another favorite one.



oh so that's how you judge things? with how many buzzwords you feel are being used?

Grindin so hard, Im smashin pussies left and right. 

asdf2000   United States. May 03 2017 11:56. Posts 7690


  On May 03 2017 03:05 Loco wrote:


Show nested quote +



How is it irrelevant? Are you saying human consciousness is somehow equivalent to a rock or a pile of ashes because they have some kind of experience too and who are we to discriminate?




equivalent? I guess but that wasn't really what I am getting at. What I am getting at is that we are experiencing those things too, we just don't know it.



 
Show nested quote +



There's a catch 22 here. If what we experience as reality is illusion, then we can't know of any absolute from our unknowingness. Now I suppose you might say something along the lines of, "it's just our senses that are unreliable and can't grasp the interconnectedness of everything, but if you go within, you can find the truth and confirm it for yourself." To that I'd simply say: First, I'm skeptical of anyone who claims to have done this, especially in the Western world, and secondly, you can just as easily dismiss it as an illusion, especially if someone used drugs to come to that realization.



I certainly am not able to experience from the perspective of anything else. My point is that just because the nature of these personal experiences I go through are such that I am not able to experience everything else, does not mean that everything else (you, baal, maybe a rock?) are not being experienced by me. Now obviously I don't know this, but this thread is about opinion, and this opinion makes more sense to me(both intuitively and logically) than the alternative.



 
I would also add the following: our senses were shaped by evolution and they serve their purpose. That purpose is not to know or to transcend anything (obviously). If we were to abandon them in the quest of some transcendent reality, we would no longer be suited for living and procreating, so we would die and become extinct as a species. What is being preached as the way to enlightenment would then have to be seen as a maladaptation. I guess there's a kind of poetic irony there: if you believe in the teleological argument that Gaia or this one experiencer/the Absolute/God needed us in order to know itself, only to end up destroying itself... I mean, you'd have to say that is one insane God. That would also mean that Ulrich Horstmann was the only philosopher who saw it coming, to a certain extent.



Well this is kind of an aside conversation, but what you are talking about would be assuming that life is especially important. Maybe life is a product of karmic stress (sorry for the buzzword baal). Maybe it's a "non-peaceful state", which it is if you think about it. So there might be something better.

Grindin so hard, Im smashin pussies left and right.Last edit: 03/05/2017 11:57

Loco   Canada. May 03 2017 17:33. Posts 20963


  On May 03 2017 09:48 Spitfiree wrote:
Show nested quote +



You make it sound like we have reasons to believe "non-existent" state is more likely. Thing is there are way too many possibilities, obviously we d prefer to believe in "life" after death, but all scenarios are possible. I'd like to see any meaningful argument supporting either development... there aren't any, its all just speculation we can't back up. There are way too many things we dont understand as species for such discussion to be productive from a pragmatic point of view. If you d like to go into philosophical part then thats another thing

P.S. Floofy your groups are just....



How the hell do we not have more reason to believe non-existence follows our own individual death? Saying "there are too many possibilites, all scenarios are possible" is just a vacuous truth. We obviously cannot argue that we can ever know, but we don't need absolute knowledge, it's about the likelihood of each possibility. It's not like it's all equal possibilities just because you can entertain the thought that countless things are possible...

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 03/05/2017 17:40

asdf2000   United States. May 03 2017 20:18. Posts 7690

Of course you can talk about likelihoods. It is much, much more likely that non-existence doesn't follow death. None of us know if we have ever experienced non existence, or if even such a thing is possible. However we do know that existence is possible, because we do experience that.

Of course we have to be careful what we mean by existence, because there is a difference between not having thoughts/sensations and not existing.

Grindin so hard, Im smashin pussies left and right. 

asdf2000   United States. May 03 2017 20:21. Posts 7690


Of course you can talk about likelihoods. It is much, much more likely that non-existence doesn't follow death. None of us know if we have ever experienced non existence, or if even such a thing is possible. However we do know that existence is possible, because we do experience that.

So which is more likely to follow death, the thing that we know is possible or the thing that we aren't even sure is possible?

Of course we have to be careful what we mean by existence, because there is a difference between not having thoughts/sensations and not existing. We go without thought/sensation quite regularly, or so our memory tells us. But that doesn't mean we weren't there,
because we were in some capacity. This is verifiable if you apply awareness and then really analyze what happens. Which I think is kind of what meditation is


oops it appears I quoted instead of edited

Grindin so hard, Im smashin pussies left and right.Last edit: 03/05/2017 20:21

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. May 03 2017 21:47. Posts 9634


  On May 03 2017 16:33 Loco wrote:
Show nested quote +



How the hell do we not have more reason to believe non-existence follows our own individual death? Saying "there are too many possibilites, all scenarios are possible" is just a vacuous truth. We obviously cannot argue that we can ever know, but we don't need absolute knowledge, it's about the likelihood of each possibility. It's not like it's all equal possibilities just because you can entertain the thought that countless things are possible...



Give me one evidence of non-existence past death? No one coming back is not really evidence, as there could be some truth we have not discovered yet, that could explain that. If anything there s evidence towards the opposite, e.g. people surviving different circumstances that would kill 99% of people, or people being revived after a few minutes of clinical death. I cannot take any of those as evidence for existence past death however.

You are obviously aware that the lack of evidence about a topic does not validate that the topic is untrue. How would one evaluate such possibilities as well considering the spectrum there would literally be 0 to 100% for any statement possible. Everything about this is pure speculation. Prove me otherwise. As I said this discussion only makes sense in a philosophical kind of view

 Last edit: 03/05/2017 21:52

Baalim   Mexico. May 03 2017 23:06. Posts 34246


  On May 03 2017 05:07 Floofy wrote:
Show nested quote +



We obviously can't know for sure what will happen, but the best we can do is try to find out the most likely outcome

I think we can both agree hell and heaven are fairly unlikely outcome.
What i tried to point out in my post is, the "we never exist again" outcome isn't as likely as people think. Because one thing we DO know is we used to not exist, and we suddenly existed. It happened once. So it isn't insane to think it can happen again.

Let's group the outcomes in 3 different categories:

A) Wishfull thinking: Hell, heaven, Vallhalla, things like that.
B) Reincarnation: Our own self is gone forever, but we do get to exist again, in some other form, in this world. Maybe on another planet or something.
C) We don't exist ever again.

I get the feeling most people on earth are either at 80%+ on A, or 80%+ on C, but me i personally think its like a coin flip between B and C.
And as insane as it might seem, i actually think the C outcome isn't that much worse than B. The thought of reincarnating into random stuff for eternity scares me a little actually. A lot of existences seems to be absolutly awfull. Just think of most animals's life today....



If you lose any recollection of your past life you are essentially a new consciousness, especially if you have vast different cognitive capabilities, your option B makes no sense at all.


You have been conscious ONCE for a few years, you have been unconscious for billions of years, you have no basis to assume you will be conscious again after death.

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Loco   Canada. May 03 2017 23:07. Posts 20963


  Everything about this is pure speculation. Prove me otherwise.



You're using the same faulty reasoning that fundamentalists use when they ask atheists to prove that their God doesn't exist. Wtf, come on. It's like if I said, "prove to me that you really exist and you are not just a figment of my imagination or else I will not speak to you again." It's really pointless and self-defeating, you don't get anywhere from that.

Everything you are going to be suggesting about life after death and the likelihood of all of those possibilities is going to be pure speculation. It involves the belief that there is something about yourself (as in, your personality) that doesn't rely on physical, biological processes to exist. Being skeptical of those claims and holding the default position that there is no such thing as a soul, transmigration, etc. isn't 'pure speculation', it's arrived at by the absence of evidence to the contrary. The issue is, you're saying the absence of evidence is not strong enough for you to hold the default position, you're saying the likelihood of many other possibilities being true is just as high or higher. Well, why don't you present your case then? What has you convinced that the default position should be abandoned and we should entertain "all those possibilities" equally? Which possibilities are the most likely according to you? Is it just because of the sheer amount of possibilities (seems to be what you are defending)?

Again, don't give me the, "if you don't have absolute evidence, then you're just speculating and everything I imagine is just as likely to be true". That's just infantile. It's like people who dismiss entire scientific theories by saying they are "just a theory". No, evolution is not just as likely to be true as creationism. Now, you could spend years coming up with alternative theories as to how sentient life came to exist, just making them up with your imagination as you go. You could then say, "look at all those possibilities, doesn't that make evolution a lot less likely?" Now, wouldn't that be stupid? Just because you can entertain the idea of many other possibilities doesn't mean they should be believed or that they are just as likely.

I haven't seen any good reason to believe that the belief in an afterlife theory -- whichever one -- is anything more than the result of a scared animal attempting to deny its own mortality. Humans have a self-serving need to believe in something greater than themselves or that they will somehow persist after perishing. No matter how many other possibilities someone presents to me, it isn't going to affect my conviction that this is the most likely reason for the belief. And since there is no way to verify any of the life after death claims, then this is really the only aspect of it that is meaningful to discuss imo.

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 03/05/2017 23:32

Baalim   Mexico. May 03 2017 23:09. Posts 34246


  On May 03 2017 09:48 Spitfiree wrote:
Show nested quote +



You make it sound like we have reasons to believe "non-existent" state is more likely. Thing is there are way too many possibilities, obviously we d prefer to believe in "life" after death, but all scenarios are possible. I'd like to see any meaningful argument supporting either development... there aren't any, its all just speculation we can't back up. There are way too many things we dont understand as species for such discussion to be productive from a pragmatic point of view. If you d like to go into philosophical part then thats another thing

P.S. Floofy your groups are just....



yes it is more likely since you have been non-exisant for 99.99999...% of the time.

And you could argue that these mental exercises are futile, however most of the people in this world believe in a childish afterlife and live their lives accordingly so, albeit people with lower IQs and less access to information than the norm in this forum.

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Baalim   Mexico. May 03 2017 23:11. Posts 34246


  On May 03 2017 10:04 Expiate wrote:
Show nested quote +

Creating as you wrote "continuous consciousness" is exactly getting more info if we use the definition you wrote and I assumed. The other option ("create a new consciousness" ) still don't provide any new info.



What new information would we get?

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Baalim   Mexico. May 03 2017 23:13. Posts 34246


  On May 03 2017 10:45 asdf2000 wrote:
Show nested quote +



oh so that's how you judge things? with how many buzzwords you feel are being used?



No, I was obviously being snarky about certain terminology, somebody wrote Qualia before you and it was an ok post, yours however was nonsense

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Baalim   Mexico. May 03 2017 23:18. Posts 34246


  On May 03 2017 19:18 asdf2000 wrote:
Of course you can talk about likelihoods. It is much, much more likely that non-existence doesn't follow death. None of us know if we have ever experienced non existence, or if even such a thing is possible. However we do know that existence is possible, because we do experience that.



You experience existence every day and non-existence every night.


For your argument to be true you are either arguing that only reality exist within your consciousness or that you have experienced consciousness in many beings/forms you just dont remember.


The first argument would be one of those absurd sophisms I was talking about, and the second is flawed because as I've said before, having no memory of past experiences renders your consciousness as brand new.

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Expiate   Bulgaria. May 04 2017 01:09. Posts 236


  On May 03 2017 22:11 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +


What new information would we get?

The most important one - consciousness won't reduce to brain/matter (the materialistic scenario) since the moment you teleport a person you are basically copying brain A with consciousness A* into brain B, but if consciousness A* reduces to brain A you won't be able to achieve this "continuous consciousness" (brain B will just have a copy of A* (say A**)). So if A* stays intact (you achieve "continuous consciousness" after teleportation) then consciousness may reduce to information (depending on how exactly this future teleportation works) or matter reduces to consciousness (the idealistic scenario). Both these follow up cases however deny the yolo scenario.


Baalim   Mexico. May 04 2017 01:36. Posts 34246

I didnt undestand at all what you are trying to say, what do you mean with "reduces".


If person A is teleported to point B he will have a continuous experience of consciousness even if the teleportation process would mean to kill the source (A).

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asdf2000   United States. May 04 2017 01:37. Posts 7690


  On May 03 2017 22:18 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +



You experience existence every day and non-existence every night.


For your argument to be true you are either arguing that only reality exist within your consciousness or that you have experienced consciousness in many beings/forms you just dont remember.


The first argument would be one of those absurd sophisms I was talking about, and the second is flawed because as I've said before, having no memory of past experiences renders your consciousness as brand new.


my post isn't nonsense at all. many people who have devoted their entire lives to spiritual reflection have come to similar conclusions. you're arrogant.

So your definition of non-existence is what? Not remembering things? We certainly don't experience "non-existence" when we sleep. Nor do we stop existing, if you want to put it that way.

I don't even understand what your 2nd sentence meant, but I am pretty sure you haven't realized my position.

Grindin so hard, Im smashin pussies left and right.Last edit: 04/05/2017 01:44

maryn   Poland. May 04 2017 02:56. Posts 1208

new episode of PBS space time: Are We Living in an Ancestor Simulation? ft. Neil deGrasse Tyson

 Last edit: 04/05/2017 03:40

Baalim   Mexico. May 04 2017 09:20. Posts 34246


  On May 04 2017 00:37 asdf2000 wrote:
Show nested quote +



my post isn't nonsense at all. many people who have devoted their entire lives to spiritual reflection have come to similar conclusions. you're arrogant.

So your definition of non-existence is what? Not remembering things? We certainly don't experience "non-existence" when we sleep. Nor do we stop existing, if you want to put it that way.

I don't even understand what your 2nd sentence meant, but I am pretty sure you haven't realized my position.



From the perspective of the person, consciousness and existence is the same thing, and yes, having no memories is the same as non-existence.

For example, you could have reincarnated 100 times before your life but you dont remember, and that would be exactly the same as if you were a new consciousness, (setting aside all arguments about cognitive abilities for simplicity).

Most people who dedicate their lives to spiritual reflection end up with idiotic ideas, priests, imams, babas etc, and yes I'm arrogant what else is new?


What part of my 2nd sentence isnt clear? I was replying to the teleportation post

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Spitfiree   Bulgaria. May 04 2017 09:57. Posts 9634


  On May 03 2017 22:07 Loco wrote:
Show nested quote +


Well, why don't you present your case then? What has you convinced that the default position should be abandoned and we should entertain "all those possibilities" equally? Which possibilities are the most likely according to you? Is it just because of the sheer amount of possibilities (seems to be what you are defending)?


I haven't seen any good reason to believe that the belief in an afterlife theory -- whichever one -- is anything more than the result of a scared animal attempting to deny its own mortality. Humans have a self-serving need to believe in something greater than themselves or that they will somehow persist after perishing. No matter how many other possibilities someone presents to me, it isn't going to affect my conviction that this is the most likely reason for the belief. And since there is no way to verify any of the life after death claims, then this is really the only aspect of it that is meaningful to discuss imo.


I cannot provide solid evidence to either case, thats the thing. Thats why such topics are pointless too, for the default position to be anything other than the one I present, you should be the one providing evidence, not the other way around, my position is the most balanced one logically, isn't it ? We do not have enough information regarding life and the universe to come to a probable conclusion. You address the matter with a poker player mentality of developing a conclusion based on limited amount of information, which doesn't amount to anything if we use the scientific method and just clash it with various counter theories e.g. If The Big Bang for example works in a way where everything repeats itself over and over, then we are surely reborn. Each non-existence theory would have a counter with the data we currently have.

Obviously you're right that we are searching for a validation for post-life existence. I myself don't care, because its out of my hands, it either does or does not happen, but nothing I could do would change that and fear of death is another case.

Also Baal's definition of existence is what would shift the discussion as well and validate the non-existence theory. However he dwelled philosophically. I like to discuss things with facts. If a person gets reborn for example but has no recollection of previous life, doesn't mean that he didn't exist before, as Baal would believe. Physically he would have been there, that it wouldn't matter to the person is another topic.

 Last edit: 04/05/2017 10:00

Expiate   Bulgaria. May 04 2017 10:02. Posts 236


  On May 04 2017 00:36 Baalim wrote:
If person A is teleported to point B he will have a continuous experience of consciousness even if the teleportation process would mean to kill the source (A).

Let's take a step/post back and break it down. We have two options as you wrote:
1) If you teleport someone all you create is a continuous consciousness OR
2) If you create a new consciousness and the other one dies you still don't know where that other consciousness go

Case 1) is the teleportation we know from films and books - person A enters a machine and teleports to another place as the same person A. His initial consciousness is intact - the process is similar to as when you go to sleep, just that you wake up (teleport) at a different place.

Case 2) involves a process, in which the initial consciousness is destroyed and then recreated - it is not similar to sleep since in your sleep your brain/subconsciousness is still functioning. To put it in the film scene - it is more like some magician made you a frog and then a person again.

Note that both these cases do NOT involve different kind of teleportation. We are talking about the same way of teleporting someone - we just don't know in which case we will end up (similar to death).

So now we discuss case 1) since case 2) does not offer us new info (we don't know what happens with this initial consciousness as you wrote).

For case 1) to be successful this means that consciousness should not reduce to brain/matter (you can have conscious forms of life, which do not have a brain - conscious AI made from silicon chips for example) since teleportation involves changing that brain/matter, but not changing its way of functioning (the information flow is just transferred/teleported). So if one has continuous consciousness after teleportation consciousness reduces to information (cryonics for example are based on exactly this information-theoretic death theory, although these two are not exactly the same since in the cryonics the information is only preserved, but the flow is destroyed) or matter reduces to consciousness (see idealism).


napalm   Poland. May 04 2017 16:45. Posts 171

Consciousness is not awareness. You can be conscious yet unaware and unconscious(asleep) but aware. If you say you're non-existant when you sleep then who is the dreamer?


Floofy   Canada. May 04 2017 17:23. Posts 8708


  On May 04 2017 08:20 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +



From the perspective of the person, consciousness and existence is the same thing, and yes, having no memories is the same as non-existence.

For example, you could have reincarnated 100 times before your life but you dont remember, and that would be exactly the same as if you were a new consciousness, (setting aside all arguments about cognitive abilities for simplicity).

Most people who dedicate their lives to spiritual reflection end up with idiotic ideas, priests, imams, babas etc, and yes I'm arrogant what else is new?


What part of my 2nd sentence isnt clear? I was replying to the teleportation post



I disagree with this. If tomorrow you get in a car accident and lose all memory, you won't "stop existing". Heck, maybe you will eventually remember stuff.

Also, let's say scientist tomorrow said "we discorvered there is NOTHING after life", i think it would be pretty different from "We discorvered humans reincarnate as a new human after death".

Of course, you would lose your current consciouness and all memories, but.... Thats clearly not the same as never experiencing anything ever again.


Also,
  On May 04 2017 08:20 Baalim wrote:
For example, you could have reincarnated 100 times before your life but you dont remember, and that would be exactly the same as if you were a new consciousness, (setting aside all arguments about cognitive abilities for simplicity)."



Even tho my current life will be the exact same wether or not its my first existence, the big difference is, if i've been reincarnating 100 times, it means i will reincarnate again after this life, which is a pretty big deal imo.

james9994: make note dont play against floofy, ;(Last edit: 04/05/2017 17:27

Loco   Canada. May 04 2017 20:29. Posts 20963


  On May 04 2017 15:45 napalm wrote:
Consciousness is not awareness. You can be conscious yet unaware and unconscious(asleep) but aware. If you say you're non-existant when you sleep then who is the dreamer?



There is a state of dreamless sleep.

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount 

Baalim   Mexico. May 05 2017 01:02. Posts 34246


  On May 04 2017 09:02 Expiate wrote:
Show nested quote +

Let's take a step/post back and break it down. We have two options as you wrote:
1) If you teleport someone all you create is a continuous consciousness OR
2) If you create a new consciousness and the other one dies you still don't know where that other consciousness go

Case 1) is the teleportation we know from films and books - person A enters a machine and teleports to another place as the same person A. His initial consciousness is intact - the process is similar to as when you go to sleep, just that you wake up (teleport) at a different place.

Case 2) involves a process, in which the initial consciousness is destroyed and then recreated - it is not similar to sleep since in your sleep your brain/subconsciousness is still functioning. To put it in the film scene - it is more like some magician made you a frog and then a person again.

Note that both these cases do NOT involve different kind of teleportation. We are talking about the same way of teleporting someone - we just don't know in which case we will end up (similar to death).

So now we discuss case 1) since case 2) does not offer us new info (we don't know what happens with this initial consciousness as you wrote).

For case 1) to be successful this means that consciousness should not reduce to brain/matter (you can have conscious forms of life, which do not have a brain - conscious AI made from silicon chips for example) since teleportation involves changing that brain/matter, but not changing its way of functioning (the information flow is just transferred/teleported). So if one has continuous consciousness after teleportation consciousness reduces to information (cryonics for example are based on exactly this information-theoretic death theory, although these two are not exactly the same since in the cryonics the information is only preserved, but the flow is destroyed) or matter reduces to consciousness (see idealism).


Why teleportation in scenario 1 does not reduce consciousness to the brain? we are talking about a perfect copy, atom per atom, therefore you are teleporting the brain with all its function and memory, like teleporting an AI computer, every bit will still be in 1 and 0s retaining its conscious state in matter.

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Baalim   Mexico. May 05 2017 01:14. Posts 34246


  On May 04 2017 16:23 Floofy wrote:
Show nested quote +



I disagree with this. If tomorrow you get in a car accident and lose all memory, you won't "stop existing". Heck, maybe you will eventually remember stuff.

Also, let's say scientist tomorrow said "we discorvered there is NOTHING after life", i think it would be pretty different from "We discorvered humans reincarnate as a new human after death".

Of course, you would lose your current consciouness and all memories, but.... Thats clearly not the same as never experiencing anything ever again.


Also,
  On May 04 2017 08:20 Baalim wrote:
For example, you could have reincarnated 100 times before your life but you dont remember, and that would be exactly the same as if you were a new consciousness, (setting aside all arguments about cognitive abilities for simplicity)."



Even tho my current life will be the exact same wether or not its my first existence, the big difference is, if i've been reincarnating 100 times, it means i will reincarnate again after this life, which is a pretty big deal imo.



You are failing to grasp the concept.

When people have amnesia they retain certain memories and cognitive abilities, so mainly most of you are gone, so you are not a "brand new" consciousness, but still a pretty new one, if you remember something then this new consciousness is expanded with this information.

If you dont remember past lives your reincarnation is meaningless, you could be in your 100th reincarnation or be a new consciousness and there would be literally 0 difference.


People would feel different if they were told they would reincarnate without memory or they would die because people cling to permanence, they make up gods and stories of eternity right now, but their stupidity doesn't change logic.

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Baalim   Mexico. May 05 2017 01:17. Posts 34246


  On May 04 2017 19:29 Loco wrote:
Show nested quote +



There is a state of dreamless sleep.


this, I obviously mean dreamless sleep which If I remember correctly is the majority of the time we sleep

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Floofy   Canada. May 05 2017 07:20. Posts 8708


  On May 05 2017 00:14 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +



You are failing to grasp the concept.

When people have amnesia they retain certain memories and cognitive abilities, so mainly most of you are gone, so you are not a "brand new" consciousness, but still a pretty new one, if you remember something then this new consciousness is expanded with this information.

If you dont remember past lives your reincarnation is meaningless, you could be in your 100th reincarnation or be a new consciousness and there would be literally 0 difference.


People would feel different if they were told they would reincarnate without memory or they would die because people cling to permanence, they make up gods and stories of eternity right now, but their stupidity doesn't change logic.



I do understand your concept.

There is no difference for me right now wether this is my first consciousness or if i've been alive before, i agree on this.
BUT, I do think there is a pretty large difference between knowing you will reincarnate after death, and knowing its just over after death.

Yes, reincarnation does mean your current self kinda does die forever, but still, you get to experience things again.


I could be wrong, but i think its highly unlikely our current consciousness will remain after death.

james9994: make note dont play against floofy, ;( 

napalm   Poland. May 05 2017 07:57. Posts 171

Majority or not you say you're non-existent when you sleep, which simply is not true because there also is dream state, besides you can be aware in dreamless state aswell if your mind is still with enough consistency. Unconsciousness simply is not a basis for non-existence.


lostaccount   Canada. May 05 2017 08:04. Posts 5739

we go to sleep after death for some time, then when the 2nd coming of Jesus. Judgement day will comes, get resurrected and we either go to heaven if we are righteous or hell if we sin.
I choose the former so i can not wait till that day when there will be unlimited happiness.

Also gambling is not sin, the love of money is the root of all evil. Love of money is a sin. So in short DO NOT SIN.

Just my opinion and if anyone of you like to learn about the bible give me a message.
I am a converted christian, so i have been studying the bible religiously.

-_-;; 

CrownRoyal   United States. May 05 2017 14:05. Posts 11385

lol

WHAT IS THIS 

Expiate   Bulgaria. May 05 2017 16:32. Posts 236


  On May 05 2017 00:02 Baalim wrote:
Why teleportation in scenario 1 does not reduce consciousness to the brain?

If consciousness reduces to brain and teleportation involves changing that brain/matter this means that you can NOT have continuous consciousness. This is like a theorem. If C reduces to B and you change B to B', C won't exist any more, although B = B'. In our case you will have C' on the place of C with C' = C. This change from C to C' is making this a non-continuous consciousness (aka you fall in case 2).


Santafairy   Korea (South). May 05 2017 17:28. Posts 2224

the brain isn't changing constantly already? so I don't have continuous (aka made-up) consciousness

It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen 

Loco   Canada. May 05 2017 19:28. Posts 20963


  On May 05 2017 06:57 napalm wrote:
Majority or not you say you're non-existent when you sleep, which simply is not true because there also is dream state, besides you can be aware in dreamless state aswell if your mind is still with enough consistency. Unconsciousness simply is not a basis for non-existence.



He's not wrong since he didn't say you are exclusively non-existent when you sleep.

And I don't care how much you train yourself, you will never be able to be lucid as you enter deep sleep. If you become lucid it's because you're out of deep sleep.

In every meaningful way, unconsciousness is non-existence. Unless you want to pretend to care about the various microorganisms that are still alive and "aware" in your body. The lights are off and it doesn't matter which words we use -- we're simply not there.

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount 

maryn   Poland. May 06 2017 03:50. Posts 1208

Assuming death feels the same as deep sleep or anesthesia we die every night and wake up as a new person and only memories from past days give us illusion of continuity, question is what happens if somebody creates an identical copy of your brain by uploading it to a computer or by teleportation (assuming we have the technology ) and destroys the "original" , would you still feel the same continuity ? Logic says it shouldn't matter since your body replaces most cells every ~10 years and you are still you, although its happening gradually and not in 100% so we cant be certain.


The more i think about it the less Im afraid of death, worst case scenario its just eternal sleep where energy and atoms go back to the universe, who knows maybe after many billions of years the same atoms recycled countless of times will randomly create RNA and start life on another planet, there is also option we "switch" to body in another multiverse where you are still alive, or if universe is truly infinite there must exist another planet exactly like earth maybe you get reborn without memories of you past life, finding out we are simulation created by advanced civilization seems like the most depressing option.

 Last edit: 06/05/2017 03:56

Baalim   Mexico. May 06 2017 05:21. Posts 34246


  On May 05 2017 15:32 Expiate wrote:
Show nested quote +

If consciousness reduces to brain and teleportation involves changing that brain/matter this means that you can NOT have continuous consciousness. This is like a theorem. If C reduces to B and you change B to B', C won't exist any more, although B = B'. In our case you will have C' on the place of C with C' = C. This change from C to C' is making this a non-continuous consciousness (aka you fall in case 2).


what? again I dont understand what you mean.


If you think your brain as a computer, (processor and Hadr drive), when you teleport it thus copying it perfectly to the subatomic level, it means that every bit of information in the hard-drive will remain the same, so you will experience a continuous consciousness, you will be in one place and then in the other, nothing has changed.

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Baalim   Mexico. May 06 2017 05:25. Posts 34246


  On May 05 2017 18:28 Loco wrote:

In every meaningful way, unconsciousness is non-existence..



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Baalim   Mexico. May 06 2017 05:26. Posts 34246


  On May 06 2017 02:50 maryn wrote:
Assuming death feels the same as deep sleep or anesthesia we die every night and wake up as a new person and only memories from past days give us illusion of continuity, question is what happens if somebody creates an identical copy of your brain by uploading it to a computer or by teleportation (assuming we have the technology ) and destroys the "original" , would you still feel the same continuity ? Logic says it shouldn't matter



Yes

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Baalim   Mexico. May 06 2017 05:27. Posts 34246

I always say this in a "consciousness" thread, but you people need some SOMA in your lives.

http://store.steampowered.com/agecheck/app/282140/

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lostaccount   Canada. May 08 2017 18:20. Posts 5739


  On May 04 2017 19:29 Loco wrote:
Show nested quote +



There is a state of dreamless sleep.


You always dream but you just do not remember. There is no unconscious state for your soul, your soul is always conscious but your physical body is unaware is what i have learn.

-_-;;Last edit: 08/05/2017 18:20

cariadon   Estonia. May 08 2017 21:06. Posts 4019


  On May 05 2017 07:04 lostaccount wrote:
we go to sleep after death for some time, then when the 2nd coming of Jesus. Judgement day will comes, get resurrected and we either go to heaven if we are righteous or hell if we sin.
I choose the former so i can not wait till that day when there will be unlimited happiness.

Also gambling is not sin, the love of money is the root of all evil. Love of money is a sin. So in short DO NOT SIN.

Just my opinion and if anyone of you like to learn about the bible give me a message.
I am a converted christian, so i have been studying the bible religiously.




For some reason i find it funny.


Spitfiree   Bulgaria. May 08 2017 22:56. Posts 9634

I don't get how people fall for the consciousness argument. I get it from a POV perspective, but its absolutely false when seen from a 3rd party, gladly we don't live in such a simple world.


P.S. yeah that bolded part is hilarious :D

 Last edit: 08/05/2017 22:57

lostaccount   Canada. May 09 2017 07:32. Posts 5739


  On May 08 2017 20:06 cariadon wrote:
Show nested quote +




For some reason i find it funny.


I find it funny, you find it funny cause God is real.

-_-;; 

Baalim   Mexico. May 09 2017 09:13. Posts 34246

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RiKD    United States. May 09 2017 17:00. Posts 8444

lostaccount is born again or a troll.

THE BIBLE IS THE TRUTH!!!

It's obvious that scientists and the scientific method are not real. One day we will meet our maker and live in ultimate bliss. Except for I have sinned a lot but I am cool with Jesus. The REAL Jesus. Tolstoy's Gospels Jesus. Turn the other cheek Jesus. Dine with prostitutes Jesus. He is my kind of guy. I have already been to hell. It is pretty bad. Heaven is the moments of enlightenment, of bliss, of liberation, of transcendence, of love, of beauty that we have here on Earth in this consciousness. *Blip* that is the sound of someone losing consciousness for eternity. *Blip* *Blip* *Blip* It happens to us all. One second we are conscious and have a theatre full of senses, awareness, and attention and the next.... *Blip*

I'm still rooting for something awesome in relation to dark matter. It's like all the things we don't know or don't understand could be linked and we end up reincarnated as a silver surfer free from tyranny... or a dolphin. I would definitely take dolphin.


Spitfiree   Bulgaria. May 11 2017 19:14. Posts 9634



This video represents how I feel about this thread


lebowski   Greece. May 12 2017 21:47. Posts 9205

that video is amazing

new shit has come to light... a-and... shit! man... 

Baalim   Mexico. May 13 2017 04:44. Posts 34246

and somewhat educational

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Loco   Canada. May 15 2017 18:08. Posts 20963

short history of being human

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 15/05/2017 18:48

RiKD    United States. May 15 2017 19:21. Posts 8444

You know, I spent a lot of time with my two nephews over this last weekend like 5 months and 1.5 years and sometimes they just give these looks like WHO DID THIS TO ME? WHY HAVE YOU DONE THIS? Also, evidenced by the one basically screaming for 1.5 hours instead of going to sleep. Not hungry. Not cold. No fecal matter. Just flat out dissatisfaction for existence to an extreme level because he is a baby and does not know how else to react. Eventually we learn to just sit in it or distract ourselves or we don't and become alcoholics and drug addicts and overfeed ourselves and all the other things we fall trap to. Man, I do my best to just be understanding and helpful to those little guys. I want to tell them YOUR PARENTS HAD YOU WITH OUT YOUR CONSENT! I KNOW IT SUCKS BUT YOU JUST HAVE STICK IT OUT AND DO YOUR BEST! I'LL READ YOU GREAT STORIES AND TRY TO INSTILL IN YOU HEROIC TRAITS SO THIS SUFFERING CAN BE JUSTIFIED! I would even tell them about chaos, impermanence and death. I will never lie even if it pisses off my brother and sister. Who gives a fuck about the sister and brother in law LOL? I am starting to write my UNCLE MANIFESTO...

I am all about helping the suffering. Babies are suffering fucking big time. Stanhope is one of my heroes. I elect him King of the anti-natal hierarchy.


 



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