Who will win the NBA MVP this season? - Page 2

Anyone wanna put a straight 1:1 bet for MVP on? Harden vs Westbrook, if anyone else wins its a wash, I'll take Harden. Seems like lots of Westbrook fans out there.

$50?

Well it looks like the line on bovada moved to Harden at ~-110. Real clever...

Really interesting off season so far.

Yep pretty crazy what's going on with Cavs/Celts right now. As soon as the initial deal was announced I immediately wondered if IT's health was worse than we realized, hard to see what other reasonable explanation there could be for the Celtics giving up so much.

Personally I'm one of those who thinks that the Cavs won the trade even if IT never plays another game of basketball. So I'm not really a fan of Cleveland re-opening negotiations regardless of how bad his physical went. I know they'll try to use it as leverage to ask for more, but they also run the risk of Ainge changing his mind - given he's faced a lot of criticism for the trade - and just backing out.

I actually I don't really love either side of that trade.

Cavs put themselves in a much better long-term position in the (arguably likely) event they have to rebuild soon while taking a lateral step (IMO) in the short term as-is. Crowder is an underrated part of the deal, he's probably on the best non-max/non-rookie contract in the league and he has value vs. GSW as a good wing defender. He's not moving the needle as far as beating GSW but he's a useful piece on an elite contract. If they decide they want to go all-in this year - which would normally be the thing to do with late-peak Lebron, but isn't automatic given his lack of commitment for the future - they have the pieces with Crowder and the Nets' pick to potentially go after big piece (Anthony Davis being the wet dream if things go south in New Orleans).

I don't know. Feel like cleveland one of the worst run organizations in nba. Horrible owner reminds me of James dolan. Essentially all they do is luck box #1 picks with most clear cut draft decisions ever with lebron/kyrie. Their basketball moves are mostly horrible and lebron just bails them out over and over.

I think I like the Boston side a bit more and I'm not a huge kyrie guy either. Reminds me of the old spurs big 3...but Cmon they aren't going to be better than gsw.

Sure, Cleveland's ownership sucks. Pretty sure their new GM made off well with this trade though, if it still goes through. You could make the argument that the Nets' pick by itself is a more valuable asset than Kyrie.

Of course it's not a perfect comparison because Kyrie provides present-day value on a 'contender', and teams typically have to overpay for that. But the betting odds for Cleveland and Boston to title didn't change after the trade was announced. Boston is still in a good position overall thanks to previous moves/picks, but this trade basically mortgages a bunch of their future value for like 1-2% more title equity this year. Meanwhile Cleveland makes a lateral move and picks up a ton of future rebuilding value. I don't understand how anyone can like Boston's side of this deal, injuries notwithstanding.

Well I did't realize how good a year crowder had last year or the last 2 years for that matter. Your logic is pretty sound.

I still think it might be a spot where the math gets kind of weird in alot of ways that makes the trade closer then you might think.

On August 27 2017 23:53 bigredhoss wrote: You could make the argument that the Nets' pick by itself is a more valuable asset than Kyrie.

I never had a real affinity for Kyrie's game. Always preferred John Wall if I were to pick a point guard in the East to do all things necessary to win a game. But that statement is f'ing ludicrous. Kyrie is one of the best at finishing at the rim as a guard not just in the game now, but in history. He's also had many clutch playoff performances including a long, contested 3 to win a championship in a finals game 7. And he's just 25 and just now entering his physical prime with an upside that is, with certainty, unknown by anyone.

To say a future pick is more valuable than a 25 year old, proven in playoffs, elite PG is...ludicrous. On top of that, the Nets added some decent pieces in Allen Crabbe and D'angelo Russell while the Pacers, Bulls, and Atlanta all gutted their teams and have incentive to tank while Brooklyn has no incentive to tank because they have to give up the pick either way. New York, Philly, and Orlando are also probably in perpetual suck mode. That pick has a good chance of not even staying in the top 5

To clarify, I'm not bashing the deal on Cleveland's side at all. Considering the circumstances (not much leverage since everyone knew they needed to unload Kyrie), they did great. But singularly comparing the pick to Kyrie. Blasphemy

On August 28 2017 01:28 iakim322 wrote: Show nested quote + On August 27 2017 23:53 bigredhoss wrote: You could make the argument that the Nets' pick by itself is a more valuable asset than Kyrie. I never had a real affinity for Kyrie's game. Always preferred John Wall if I were to pick a point guard in the East to do all things necessary to win a game. But that statement is f'ing ludicrous. Kyrie is one of the best at finishing at the rim as a guard not just in the game now, but in history. He's also had many clutch playoff performances including a long, contested 3 to win a championship in a finals game 7. And he's just 25 and just now entering his physical prime with an upside that is, with certainty, unknown by anyone. To say a future pick is more valuable than a 25 year old, proven in playoffs, elite PG is...ludicrous.

If you're bullish on Kyrie's development, you can make a case that he's a more valuable asset than the pick. If you're bearish on him, you can make a case for the pick. I think you're confusing the idea that the pick could be a more valuable asset than Kyrie, with the idea that the pick is likely to become a better player than Kyrie - those are two very different things. Anyway, all I said is that there's a case to be made that the pick is more valuable and that's certainly true*.

*Note that I don't actually know anything about the upcoming draft class itself.

On top of that, the Nets added some decent pieces in Allen Crabbe and D'angelo Russell while the Pacers, Bulls, and Atlanta all gutted their teams and have incentive to tank while Brooklyn has no incentive to tank because they have to give up the pick either way. New York, Philly, and Orlando are also probably in perpetual suck mode. That pick has a good chance of not even staying in the top 5

Check the team over/unders and get back to me. Nets adding pieces (lol) is a trendy narrative right now but they're still hot garbage.

You're right in that I probably overstated Brooklyn's chances. But no you're still absolutely crazy for valuing a single future pick over a 6'3, already proven in a finals game 7, elite PG entering his absolute prime with a ceiling that is untapped. On a friendly contract on top if only for two years. Unless a high school Lebron James is walking through the door next year that is

On August 29 2017 18:29 iakim322 wrote: You're right in that I probably overstated Brooklyn's chances. But no you're still absolutely crazy for valuing a single future pick over a 6'3, already proven in a finals game 7, elite PG entering his absolute prime with a ceiling that is untapped. On a friendly contract on top if only for two years. Unless a high school Lebron James is walking through the door next year that is

Again, you need to stop saying I'm valuing the pick over Kyrie. I'm saying the case can be made, and that they're comparable. If you think Kyrie is more valuable, that's fine. If you think it's crazy to compare them as assets, you either don't understand rookie scale contracts or are wildly optimistic about Kyrie's future.

Boston got raped in that trade. They could have made it happen giving up a lesser pick than the most valuable draft asset in the league. Ainge sucks

On August 29 2017 18:29 iakim322 wrote: You're right in that I probably overstated Brooklyn's chances. But no you're still absolutely crazy for valuing a single future pick over a 6'3, already proven in a finals game 7, elite PG entering his absolute prime with a ceiling that is untapped. On a friendly contract on top if only for two years. Unless a high school Lebron James is walking through the door next year that is

Kyrie played with Lebron. Everyone looks better playing next to Lebron. Remember when kyrie was the #1 option on his team he and the team were trash

Kyrie was never anywhere close to trash

Boston has no choice to take the trade I dont understand how you guys only look at this so rigidly.

Nba is more like tourney than cash game. Free agents have been check folding boston past few years. Isaiah while I like him cause he so dan good for his height, clearly was a flawed team as seen when they got obliterated by cleveland.

You guys really expect boston to go to war again with isaiah and crew?

On September 03 2017 22:19 hiems wrote: Boston has no choice to take the trade I dont understand how you guys only look at this so rigidly. Nba is more like tourney than cash game. Free agents have been check folding boston past few years. Isaiah while I like him cause he so dan good for his height, clearly was a flawed team as seen when they got obliterated by cleveland.

Of course they had a choice. They had two options: sign free agents this summer that would allow them to compete for a title this year (or this+next year), or continue sitting on their assets and build a team that will compete in 2023ish. If they wanted to do the former, they should have signed George or Butler who are superior pieces for winning now; they had/have the assets to crush the offers those guys eventually signed for in OKC/MIN. They chose to wait and overpay for Kyrie rather than get a steal on Butler/George.

They signed a player who isn't moving the needle on one timeline, while sacrificing equity in their other timeline. To use the tourney analogy, they had a huge stack halfway through and decided to fold into the final table, passing up +EV spots. But when they get to the bubble they realized they should have taken some of those +EV spots, start making terrible spazz shoves to make up for it, and end up bubbling.