Strategy talk while at the tables?

Phil galfond doesnt think talking strategy will hurt his game enough to the point where he makes video giving his whole entire thought process and strategy plans readily to the interwebz.

The logic behind that is poker is an ever evolving game thats always upping new levels. With an open source like network for all the strategy talk and plethura of info online, eventually there will be an end game level where everyone knows all the logistical aspects of the game, but then this is where i meant the best players will always shine (instead of benefit the most.)
All the innate skills of poker would come into play. Things like hand reading, tilt control, player reading.

Also you guys dont talk about it much and put it off, but bullshitting and lying is part of the game. You gotta needle the fish and other players sometimes and say you woulda went all in with their hand instread you woulda snap folded. And then nod your head to them when you know they are lying about their hands or say something absurd.

This one very solid reg would constantly lie about his hand to tilt other people. Saying he folded second nuts when they show nuts. He of course balances this with some truth too.

So i guess after the hand is over, there are more mind games to played. Thats poker for ya lol.

People lie so much it kinda almost throws you off your game sometimes. I would say beleive about half of what your hear at the tables. Maybe less before you get completely leveled.

Well galfond has a strategy training business. Making a couple general videos isnt going to destroy his expectation. He obviously isnt outlinig his whole PLO strategy and giving everything away. He also plays a more non formulaic opponent dependent strategy than most high stakes players. If hes in a big live game with whales he wont be talking advanced strat right there

I honestly don't care, and I don't care if it upsets others but if I am playing like low to mid stakes live up to like 5/10 the skill difference will be so huge that revealing information wont change anything

And who cares if you educate the fish?

They might become tougher to play, they might enjoy the game more but they will still be recreational players.. I feel people stigmatize the recreational players so much by isolating them from improving, sitting to their direct left, ultimatelly making the game less fun for them, so yeah talk to the fish tell them what they want to hear, be insightful, they aren't stupid but they will never be professionals.

It's not even about educating the fish. Talking advanced game theory promotes playing well for everyone and kills the action. Majority of the VIPs are here for the gamble and promoting strategy aspect of poker makes the game less attractive and fun. What we should be doing is promoting the gamble. I see gang of older asian crew at commerce do this so well even with their broken english making VIP the life of the party and having the game be about gambling. They force the table into a silent agreement to play looser and gamble more at least on the surface, creating a friendlier and more action friendly environment for the VIP. Some of the strategy talking regs don't realize this or choose to be part of and play their ABC headphone wearing anti social poker style thinking everyone sucks and we are just a pile of money bag. They are terrible for the game.

On August 31 2016 22:58 AndrewSong wrote: It's not even about educating the fish. Talking advanced game theory promotes playing well for everyone and kills the action. Majority of the VIPs are here for the gamble and promoting strategy aspect of poker makes the game less attractive and fun. What we should be doing is promoting the gamble. I see gang of older asian crew at commerce do this so well even with their broken english making VIP the life of the party and having the game be about gambling. They force the table into a silent agreement to play looser and gamble more at least on the surface, creating a friendlier and more action friendly environment for the VIP. Some of the strategy talking regs don't realize this or choose to be part of and play their ABC headphone wearing anti social poker style thinking everyone sucks and we are just a pile of money bag. They are terrible for the game.

^

those sunglass wearing cash game nit regs are far worse for the game than talking random poker *strategy* (nonesense) with a random person at the table. I've never once heard constructive / "talking advanced game theory" ever, most people are so disillusion with how good they are that anything that comes out of their mouth at the table is hurting both themselves and the players around them... I am just saying that no logical person would ever talk advance game theory

I disagree with you casino.

In almost every live game where you even have some huge whales. If there's some intense strategy discussion going on they will be playing their "A" game and feel very uncomfortable to splash around fearing that it'll look "dumb" or "embarrassing"

Whereas on the other hand if people are talking about sports, women, etc. Whatever and having a jolly ol time. The same fish even are much more likely to splash around than in the previous scenario.

Most cases ppl talking strategy at the table is to stroke what's left of their pathetic little egos anyways.

I find that that kind of talk almost always discourages good action. And in turn will cut your longterm hourly in significant ways.

Even if the talk is retarded and is wrong. (hell 95% of the time if i hear it i want to tear my eardrums out) It just discourages gambling...which is exactly what you want no?

Also the sunglasses cash game nit regs are indeed awful for the game in general since they are the one that berate fish and try to explain to them why they fucked up (whilst being wrong most the time themselves of course).

But often times they are really bad tilt monkeys and 1-2 bad beats will make the game great to off set their shittyness

Talking strategy can be bad, but it can also have no affect. Berating the fish is 100x worse almost always.

I pretty much always reaffirm poor strat when fish begin discussing it. Whether some guy jams a low PP aipf to protect his hand or check-calls the nuts on the flop not to slowplay but to make sure the flush doesnt come in on the turn, I always nod and take their side. There have been a couple of times where a particularly chatty solid reg might "discuss" what happened with me if we're sitting next to each other and we can make it private, but it's usually just patting each other on the back agreeing at the absurdity of what we just saw.

I think that's really subjective.

I highly doubt that anything anybody says will make the whale player much better (How much better?). But lets say supposedly the table talk caused a lull in the dynamics, how can you sure that it impacted the players game?

Even if it did cause him to supposedly splash around a bit less, how long is he going to play better for? Forever? unlikely. He will probably go through a phase and dump his money later. He is not a professional.

And lastly, what is table talk? Everyone has all different opinions on what it means but to me it means nothing but a bunch of gibberish that keeps people in the game longer.



Honestly I am totally on the opposite camp here.. I would much rather the whale/fish be intrigued about how poker is a game of skill, than to think about getting up and gambling/splashing around at the pits.

so yes any kind of talk that can keep the fish/whale engaged is +EV

(when I was playing in the private lives games in LA with the celebrity fishes, they would ask me questions about poker like how they played the hand or if they made the right call/fold and I would give them my genuine answer and it encouraged a positive poker atmosphere where the players were eager to test their skill week after week)

The point I am making is table talk is maybe -EV in the moment but in the long run, in the grand scheme of things its +EV as it encourages people to think about poker and make them return to the table more often.

The whale knows that cold 4betting 27o is bad. He might do it anyway but if he feels like he will be judged by the immediate peer group negatively. He might decide not to. Humans don't like feeling judged under any circumstance but especially when they are locked into a social scenario where the immediate peer group might look at them like they are dumb. It's not about making them more skilled it's about social pressure. I can't believe there is a thread and an actual discussion about this :|.

On September 17 2016 20:41 casinocasino wrote: I think that's really subjective. I highly doubt that anything anybody says will make the whale player much better (How much better?). But lets say supposedly the table talk caused a lull in the dynamics, how can you sure that it impacted the players game?

Consider this; 2 nights ago a mega whale sitting 4k deep at 2/5 and raising basically every hand gets 3bet by fish sitting on $1200 or so. Whale opened for $30, fish 3bet to $250, some random short stack guy in the blinds calls and whale folds. Fish turns over 55, flops a set and wins the hand. Immediately the table erupts at how "crazy" he is for 3betting 50BB with 55, and the fish defends himself saying "this guy is playing every hand! I cant take a flop with him with 55! I'll never know if it's good or not, unless i hit a set". I was sitting quiet the whole time and immediately thought "damnit he may just have an epiphany here". The fish was quiet for a second and luckily I'm pretty sure he didnt put it together, probably because he knows you dont flop sets very often so that was just blind luck in his eyes.

That's the kind of understanding you dont ever want someone coming to under any circumstance ever.

I used to talk a little strategy but then I realized the average live poker player is rock dumb and wouldn't understand most of the things I'm talking about anyway. Throwing around terms like balancing your range goes way over 95% of the players heads. I'd show up with a bluff in some spots occasionally and be considered stupid as fuck when the point of it is to balance and show up in the same spot with the nuts and dickslap someone in the face when they don't expect it. I also found that using terminology like 3bet/4bet/5bet, "range", "equity", "balance", etc... frequently makes you actually sound pretty annoying rather than constructive.

Nowdays, whenever someone says anything fucking retarded, I just flat out agree with them on almost everything. We become best friends, he buys me a drink, then I take a few hundred off him later. And the best part, he's not mad at all cause we are best buds! The only time I will maybe talk a little strategy is if I'm sitting next to someone on my direct left/right that I play with frequently and both of us have some mutual respect for one another. I don't think it's too negative to talk a little strategy with someone you perceive similar to your level as long as you aren't distracting the table and taking away from the game.

I would like to add that as a non-professional player there are times where I may play while not in my best condition and make lots of mistakes such as playing way too many hands or chasing when it's not worth it. Specifically, in times where I have been drinking a little too much, I might start playing a little gambletastic. While my personality in general is very not give a fuck about anything style, I have had instances where people have criticized my play and have called me offensive names to the point where it starts to get almost impossible for me to play. Some people can be so bad that I've had times where I sucked out with a 2 outer and the guy is looking to pick a fight with me outside. For me personally, I could give two shits about what those people think, but it would be very easy for a fish who is actually bad to make the same mistakes I am. If people berate a fish that doesn't have the personality/mental fortitude to deal with some of the criticism, that person is immediately gone. It's really bad for the game to be that negative to people in my opinion.

Lets examine a typical live player for minute guys.

Typical live player limps A6 and 67 off under the gun, open limps button with k5 off, raises 10 bb with aces, limps AK, cold calls 3 bets with low pps. And this is just preflop. Are you guys really threatened by these players so much that we must make every game we sit at a blood sport?

Of course its stupid to tell your opponents how you play but the skill gap is literally the equivalent of a kid out of middle school playing chess vs someone who does it for a living. Now if the guy just took his money every game eventually people dont want to play with you any more. But you teach them a little and they think they are hot shit now and you get more action.

When talking strategy you just regurgitate whatever has already been said on tv and never go into your own advanced game play of course. Then of course there is promoting the gamble. You basically bullshit about every hand you can and laugh about it. There are times fish do stupid shit and suck out. You dont berate the fish you high five him and laugh your ass off with the table. If he does something stupid and loses you say he runs bad.

I don't usually tap the glass but after reading this thread.. I can not be silent to the community that made my career. You guys are fucking fish

any time you're talking about strategy at a table you are promoting talking about strat and not about gambling. stuff like that generally makes the fish more self aware and more conscious that if he messes up he'll look stupid and try to look stupid less. giving fish unsolicited advice is the worst, and talking strat with regs with a fish in ear shot is almost as bad.

that said, if a fish asks you for advice on a hand and you want to have a good relationship with him i dont mind answering honestly. some fish have a lot of money to lose because they are smart and do well in other places so if you just keep saying ya man woulda done the exact same thing while you are sitting there playing 1 hand every 3 hours that's probably going to rub them the wrong way as well. if im answering any question though im answering it open endedly and by explaining it in terms of feel and avoiding words like range, odds, line, 3b etc. so if board is 7892T and a fish raises a bet on the river and then calls a 3b with a 6 and asks me if i would have called i'll say something like 'well after he raised you again on the river i think he's trying to say he has the jack. now its just up to you if you believe him'.

probably not something id do often at lower stakes due to larger fish pool and inability to parlay that good relationship into anything useful. also, good ways to just sidestep the issue are to be drinking heavily and get the fish to think you're the fish so hed never ask you anyways.

Lets just say before i was on the same boat as everyone, die hard conservative and not talk to anyone and just listen and watch everything i can at the table.

After about 5 years or so i became a little more comfortable at the table and can feel out where everyone is at a little more better. Now i can talk to people a little more about the game while playing and show my bluffs and still be confident about my game not to get exploited.

A real life example to paint a better picture of what kind of table talk i am talking about.

We have a pro vs a fish in the bb.
Board comes K 5 5 rainbow. BB donks a bet into like 5 people, pro smooths. Turn is 4 and pro has pocket 4s and rest is irrelevant but afterwards the bb goes why did you call with 4s? The guy pauses for a second and says with a straight face , 'honestly, i put you on a weak king and was planning on pushing you off of it later.' Sure, he could of responded with any other answer but the answer he responded with was savage and i want to be a savage.

Till this day that fish is still one of the biggest losers in the room that goes there everyday. The pro was so confident in his skills vs the fish that he straight up told him he was going to rob him later. Not to mention the rest of the table seeing what just happened helped his future action as well.

On September 19 2016 19:00 AndrewSong wrote: I don't usually tap the glass but after reading this thread.. I can not be silent to the community that made my career. You guys are fucking fish

<3