Reasons to lie

On August 22 2016 01:33 lucky331 wrote: it's your fault drone. you messed up that girl's life.

the way I feel is basically yeah to the second part and no to the first. She asked and specified that she wanted an honest answer, so it's her fault. I don't think I really did anything wrong - I definitely wasn't trying to be a jerk. I was however ignorant of how much words can hurt people, and I genuinely do believe that her self-appreciation took a serious hit that day, in a way that probably largely 'messed up' her later teenage years.

I actually just facebooked her cuz this thread made me remember her - she's still goth (and has been going strong for the past 17 years or so), but also married and seems to have a bunch of chill and nerdy friends. Hooray.

I am a Seeker of Truth. I am true to myself and others and will always be. Therefore, i do not lie.

On August 22 2016 14:30 JohnnyBologna wrote: I am a Seeker of Truth. I am true to myself and others and will always be. Therefore, i do not lie.

You need to work on ur lieing

If you put a system under a pressure it can't withstand it can either crumble or become strong enough to withstand the pressure. This is how our universe works. Trying to sugarcoat things will inevitably have a negative impact on humanity because it's an attitude that generates less exceptional individuals. Exceptional individuals make a difference, weak minded ones live their lives in their limbo and don't contribute a hundredth as much. I think when telling a person he/she has a problem it's key to present the problem and possible solutions together, so they can start with a mentality of picking themselves up from that point. In my opinion, unless you know the person incredibly well on a personal level, judging that he/she can't handle the pressure and choosing to lie is arrogant and damaging on a bigger scale.

On August 21 2016 20:06 ClouD87 wrote: Funnily enough what Rapoza said is a huge lie in itself. He claims to do it in the interest of the other person, but he actually does not help him/her realizing what could be improved upon in his/her life. You lie to that person just so you don't get a negative reaction and that's what's convenient for you. People are never ready to hear hard truths. If they were they would already be doing something about it or accept their situation if they can't do anything about it. If you really cared about the other person you would just say things as they are. But you are not going to do it because you would most likely get a response of resentment. Of course humans always lie for personal gain. People who do it smartly maximize their gains and minimize the chance of being discovered (or find a convenient balance between the two for most situations). I think trying to categorize the reasons is ambitious but it's a great thing to do to better understand human behaviour.

while i agree that people's motivation for lying is usually more self-serving than they like to admit, i don't think what you say is always true. when i was in Bolivia i was referred to a friend of a friend's house and invited for dinner. she was an incredibly kind older woman (50's probably) whose husband died in the silver mines and she lived in a tiny little place with a bunch of other family members where she and her sister cooked for everyone. as someone who likes trying new food and enjoys most of it, i just didn't like the food that much. but when she asked me how it was, there's no way in hell i was going to say anything besides 'delicious'. i don't think telling the completely honest truth would have benefited her or anyone. it's true that it saved me from facing an unpleasant reaction, but it also saved her feelings from being hurt, and i'm not sure to what extent she can 'improve' at cooking/getting fresher ingredients given that she lives in poverty. (and it's not even clear that she should want to, her family is probably used to eating that food and like it)

On August 22 2016 06:32 Smuft wrote: there is no absolute answer imo some people have the strength to benefit from being told they are fat/ugly/annoying/etc some people are too fragile to hear such things and perhaps need to realize other truths first

yeah this pretty much, /thread

On August 22 2016 15:24 ClouD87 wrote: If you put a system under a pressure it can't withstand it can either crumble or become strong enough to withstand the pressure. This is how our universe works. Trying to sugarcoat things will inevitably have a negative impact on humanity because it's an attitude that generates less exceptional individuals. Exceptional individuals make a difference, weak minded ones live their lives in their limbo and don't contribute a hundredth as much. I think when telling a person he/she has a problem it's key to present the problem and possible solutions together, so they can start with a mentality of picking themselves up from that point. In my opinion, unless you know the person incredibly well on a personal level, judging that he/she can't handle the pressure and choosing to lie is arrogant and damaging on a bigger scale.

I think if you're going to walk around treating people like they are systems that need to be improvement, that means you are a faulty system in need of improvement. And even if you do decide to relate to people based on their individual contribution to the positive progress of mankind, I'd find it somewhat arrogant to assume that your values or judgment are universally accepted as good.. I mean, I'm not saying that you should never tell people that they have a problem and give suggestions on how to fix it, I'm totally fine with the second half of your post. But some people just wanna live their lives in reasonable contentness.. I don't think neglecting to highlight someone's negative traits and accepting people despite their flaws (which to some degree necessitates not bringing up those flaws) is something that has negative impact on humanity- I think it's a logical conclusion of the realization that what is flawed and not is in most cases highly subjective, that mostly everyone is in some way flawed in the eyes of mostly everyone, and that to be functional social creatures we have to be able to look past this.

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On August 22 2016 16:00 bigredhoss wrote: while i agree that people's motivation for lying is usually more self-serving than they like to admit, i don't think what you say is always true. when i was in Bolivia i was referred to a friend of a friend's house and invited for dinner. she was an incredibly kind older woman (50's probably) whose husband died in the silver mines and she lived in a tiny little place with a bunch of other family members where she and her sister cooked for everyone. as someone who likes trying new food and enjoys most of it, i just didn't like the food that much. but when she asked me how it was, there's no way in hell i was going to say anything besides 'delicious'. i don't think telling the completely honest truth would have benefited her or anyone. it's true that it saved me from facing an unpleasant reaction, but it also saved her feelings from being hurt, and i'm not sure to what extent she can 'improve' at cooking/getting fresher ingredients given that she lives in poverty. (and it's not even clear that she should want to, her family is probably used to eating that food and like it)

this is interesting, i chose not tot lie to someone just today at the gym not really thinking and it looked like it devastated him which made me feel like a dick.

basically i haven't seen him in 6 weeks and last time we talked he mentioned his weight goal. so first thing he says after we strike up a conversation was 'yo man! i hit my target weight! can you tell?' and without even thinking I just told him not really, I thought he looked the same. it seemed to have really put him down or hurt him even though he handled it well.

in hindsight I would argue lying here in my spot is probably the superior option in every way, but i'm curious what others might think.

On August 22 2016 16:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: Show nested quote + On August 22 2016 15:24 ClouD87 wrote: If you put a system under a pressure it can't withstand it can either crumble or become strong enough to withstand the pressure. This is how our universe works. Trying to sugarcoat things will inevitably have a negative impact on humanity because it's an attitude that generates less exceptional individuals. Exceptional individuals make a difference, weak minded ones live their lives in their limbo and don't contribute a hundredth as much. I think when telling a person he/she has a problem it's key to present the problem and possible solutions together, so they can start with a mentality of picking themselves up from that point. In my opinion, unless you know the person incredibly well on a personal level, judging that he/she can't handle the pressure and choosing to lie is arrogant and damaging on a bigger scale. I think if you're going to walk around treating people like they are systems that need to be improvement, that means you are a faulty system in need of improvement. And even if you do decide to relate to people based on their individual contribution to the positive progress of mankind, I'd find it somewhat arrogant to assume that your values or judgment are universally accepted as good.. I mean, I'm not saying that you should never tell people that they have a problem and give suggestions on how to fix it, I'm totally fine with the second half of your post. But some people just wanna live their lives in reasonable contentness.. I don't think neglecting to highlight someone's negative traits and accepting people despite their flaws (which to some degree necessitates not bringing up those flaws) is something that has negative impact on humanity- I think it's a logical conclusion of the realization that what is flawed and not is in most cases highly subjective, that mostly everyone is in some way flawed in the eyes of mostly everyone, and that to be functional social creatures we have to be able to look past this.

I believe that if you don't act according to your morals and assume everything people do is fine we might aswell live in complete anarchy. If a person's moral standpoint is reached through logic and discussion then it's not faulty to believe the choices he's doing are the best possible choices he is able to make until proven otherwise. I would argue that we have too many people who have it too easy. They avoid to think about anything because they are not forced to do so by anyone. They don't like to take responsibility for their mistakes and their emotions. Those people represent the downfall of humanity in the long run. I don't think lying to them does any good to anyone, those are actually the guys who need to be smacked in the face by reality.

nolan:

I think you did your gym bro a service

You are probably one of the few people who gave him actual honest feedback. He's not a fragile young girl that is going to go home and cut herself, he's a grown man who is taking on fitness challenges. He needs to hear the truth.

Hearing the truth may cause some short term displeasure (for both of you) but having honest feedback is the only long term way to improve. I also think that ultimately people respect you more for telling them a painful truth than the standard pandering than everyone else does. In our current culture where everyone tries so hard to be positive/encouraging/non-conflictual, a person you can rely on to tell you the truth has a lot of value.

On August 22 2016 18:38 Rapoza wrote: For example, lets say you are in a party with a friend ugly as fuck. Then he asks: "Dude, i want to ask that girl out but i am so afraid" You know the chances of him to succeed are low, but never 0%

Looks or Game brah ? :D


But no honestly, first of all we should set a definition of truth, which already makes the topic much harder. Are we using the truth as facts or the truth as a person's belief in a given subject? Cause the 2nd one is pure arrogance most of the time and I can tell, because its what I've been doing my whole life and arrogant is usually the first impression i leave on new people. Only shortly did i start to understand what was wrong with that in certain situations.

I do understand where ClouD comes off too, people should be pushed off their comfort zone, but that's not always the case. There s no absolute answer here. Always telling the truth is almost as dumb as always lying. And im not using dumb as a measure of intelligence, but more of a social interaction skillset.

@longple there are tons of ideas that would work in a utopia perfectly to the benefit of all humanity, sadly utopia is unachievable. It's also hard for one to not lie to himself, as its not something a person usually realizes unless someone else points out to it
Also pretty average TED talk imo - " You dont get enlightened by being smart" - this guy should gtfo, how can you even post such a video

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The more life I live the more important I find it to be honest with myself and others. Denial, delusion, rationalization, self-justification are all bad things in the long run. It has done some magical things for me to strive to be the right size for my situation and be as honest as I can. It has allowed a lot of my insecurities to fade away. I used to lie and exaggerate a lot for all sorts of different reasons. Poker fucked me up in some ways in that regard. I was drawn to poker and got good because of some of those traits too. I think the number 1 reason I used to not tell the whole truth was insecurities. So, the less insecurities I have the less I lie. The less I lie the less insecurities I have. If I knowingly tell a lie about something I knowingly lack, now, I am for sure insecure about the lacking and now the lies get worse and/or easier instead of getting honest about the lacking and putting in some work on the lacking. I hope that makes sense. I am going into a lot of Sartre on this. Bad faith. The existing + the lacking = the lacked. I have found that sometimes the lacking can simply be programming from x, y, z. If I am spending enough time around the right programming I may feel that I have to look like Brad Pitt in Troy. Today, that is where I say that programming is bullshit and that that is a bullshit unattainable goal. 12% body fat, happy, and healthy would be a much better goal.

I am getting a bit off topic though. The main point is that if I felt I was lacking in x and that the other person would think that it is important not to be lacking in x and the social sphere I was in would deem x to be important I would exaggerate or lie. I would not say it is a good thing to just not care about any lacking but to just be honest. Being honest about the existing will improve confidence. Working on the important lacking attributes will improve confidence. The truth is out there. To put it in to video game terms b/c I just feel like it at the time: So, I want to be in this clan. I am lvl 25. The clan has a minimum lvl 30 rule. Everyone in the clan can see I am lvl 25. I am not in the clan. There is a clear lacking I need to work on. So, I have to decide that either being in the lvl 30 clan is not important or I need to put in some work and get to lvl 30. No excuses. The same thing happens in real life except the requirements are not obvious and are likely changing from moment to moment. It is probably horrible to obsess or fixate on anything that is not ones' bliss. Be honest and live life to the fullest is the best path. Live life as if one were the hero in their own mythology. That is a mix between Joseph Campbell and Joe Rogan to my knowledge. Never give up on truth either. I feel like a part of my soul and spirit dies anytime an exaggeration or white lie slips out. That is why it is important to do my best. If I am truly doing my best and in a good place I am typically not insecure and not lying. I still carry fears and insecurities with me, though, that I do not know when one of them will come up or get triggered. It is progress not perfection.

It is difficult to be truly 100% honest with oneself and others. There is shit that I was in denial about for like 10 years. In some cases some stuff I truly believed and I am certain that I would have passed a lie detector test. I am sure there is stuff I am still in denial about. I am sure there is stuff I am still rationalizing on an at least weekly basis. There have been times when I have been manic and/or drunk and gone stream of consciousness, 100% my truth at the time out loud. I have actually had positive results from that. I have certainly had negative results too. I was just thinking about the time I told a woman I was attracted to that I wanted to "Fuck her to NIN Closer in a Church" out of the blue. As the thought came into my head I said it. That is a complicated story so I will just end it there. It gets way crazier and better but I do not feel comfortable sharing it yet. I really should. Laugh at my pain. Truth in Comedy. Anyways, sober and stable I would be way too uncomfortable to just say all my thoughts out loud but I actually push myself to be as lucid and honest with what is on my mind today. I would suggest it to anyone.

On August 22 2016 20:30 Spitfiree wrote: [ @longple there are tons of ideas that would work in a utopia perfectly to the benefit of all humanity, sadly utopia is unachievable. It's also hard for one to not lie to himself, as its not something a person usually realizes unless someone else points out to it Also pretty average TED talk imo - " You dont get enlightened by being smart" - this guy should gtfo, how can you even post such a video

I agree! From my own experience, its very very hard but also very valueable to my expansion/growth, love and reducion of suffering (aka happiness), wich all are things I want out of my life.

Again, atleast for me, I would even go as far as calling it impossible aslong as its unconscious, wich it always seem to some degree. I think we do this because we are afraid, we are afraid that if we knew (on an ego/personality/identity-level, also still unconscious), and were fully concious and aware that would take greater responsibility, and thats scary. To wake up from being a victim of life we have to own up and take responsibility for everything that happened and happens to us.

What we do instead is we listen to our mind, the ultimate victim, selfcritic and storytelling machine. We believe in the story, that never is ever the truth, only an illusion created in our mind, how could it possibly be the truth? Challange a thought, any thought and you can find out for yourself to form your own experience.

I might be hanging in the wrong thread, but I try to be somewhat ontopic, as honesty, lies and such is on the carpet in my own world right now and I used to be 100% sure that lies where something I did out of kindness to others.

Why I posted the Brad Blanton tedtalk was because he has written a book called Radical Honesty.

Sam Harris wich more of you might be aware of has written a book called "Lying" aswell. Where he argues that lying even to the smallest whitelies is the biggest underlying contributor to of the suffering we all experience (aka not happiness). He argues that; even with Nazis at the door and Anne Frank in the attic that there are truths worth telling, and how lying could easily lead to greater catastroph.

The Drone example is a great one, she asks, Am I ugly? Saying "No I think your beautiful" only to not hurt her feelings, (or protect your own persona from conflict or not being liked by everything and everyone), when you truly think that she isnt from your own taste perspective. Theres a big difference in saying "Yes your ugly as fuck you should kill yourself" and saying "In my own opionion your not my type and im not attracted to you" if its so.

If we lie or tell the truth in that case, the mind comes in and comes up with a story afterwards once she has left the scene and in reality you have no idea what this will do to her or whats actually going on by saying things like "I should have lied, now shes gonna be superdepressed" "I should have told the truth, now shes gonna get hurt by someone else" or "I caused her to become goth" "If I didnt she would have done this, or that or bla or bla"

Wich is just what the mind does, it tryes to make sense of everything. But in reality, you have no idea, maybe it was the best thing that ever happened to her. Maybe it was the worst thing that happened to her. Maybe she became goth because she loves this w/e artist to death, maybe she did it because her mother treated her like shit as a kid. Maybe if you would have lyed to her she would have entered this beauticontest and gone suicidal because someone would tell her something that would set her of down a spiral. Maybe anything!

My point is we really dont know, any reason or story the mind comes up with around a circumstance or an outcome is all speculation, an illusion. Right?

With all this said, Im just as fucked up as anyone and I tell myself storys constantly about everything but by sometimes seeing that and realiseing what I wanted or that I actually dont know. Is very liberating and as I sometimes catch myelf it often makes me laugh as a lightbulb is turned on in an instance of noticing.

A thought is always just a thought and its harmless unless we believe it.

The pain we suffer is almost never caused by the circumstance or event itself, its only caused by our thoughts and labels about that circumstance. As something "bad" or "wrong" or w/e.

If it resonates with anyone, I recommend both those books Lying (Sam harris https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/new-ebook-lying/) and Radical Honesty (Brad Blanton).

I agree that I can't pinpoint her movement towards gothness specifically to this incident and it's possible that the timing was coincidental. But the fact that I can't recall us ever talking after is real. And I'm not saying I should've said 'no, I think you're beautiful', but I could have said 'no you're not ugly. you're not like, really hot or whatever, but you're not ugly'. Then she'd feel better about herself - and about me and spending time with me - than she did after she realized that I thought she was ugly. It's not just about shielding the person from an unpleasant personal truth or whatever, it's about preserving a friendship. I think hearing someone say, and mean, something like 'you're ugly' or 'you're stupid' or some other hardly fixable insult is difficult to forget and makes it hard to really interact with the person after. People are sensitive, some more than others, social relationship are different and impossible to fit into a singular mold. I'm not disputing that if, hypothetically, everyone was always honest with themselves and with others society would be better, people would probably not find the brutal truth as brutal if they were accustomed to it from an early age so you wouldn't have the possibility for those, personality-or-friendship-shattering statements. But I would also argue that it would be beneficial for everyone if everyone was completely trusting towards everyone and willing to share everything with everyone but I'm not gonna start out inviting homeless drug addicts to sleep in my living room. People aren't as perfect as the hypothetical 'always behave like this towards others' scenarios normally necessitates.

Ugly is a bit different from fat also. Ugly is less fixable, more subjective, and it's possible to reason that it's fairly irrelevant aside from vanity purposes, whereas fat leaves you less capable of getting shit done and a less pleasant life not just in the 'be attractive' way. Same with like, 'dude, you're wasting away your life, spend your time on something more productive so you can actually utilize your talents' or a variant of the ben affleck to matt damon good will hunting truth, that's a kind of feedback where I agree it's often detrimental that people aren't able to share in honesty.

But if you hear a friend play an instrument and he's been playing for two months and you would have expected him to have improved more by now, I think saying 'it really doesn't seem like you have a talent for this at all' rather than 'good job dude, keep this up and you'll get places', while more truthful, is also more likely to be demotivating. It's not like his efforts in learning the instrument is only worthwhile if he gets really really good - even if he spends 50% longer than average he can still get to a level where he gets enjoyment out of it, but if you, as his friend just instantly discourages him, he'd be more likely to stop playing.

On August 22 2016 19:11 nolan wrote: Show nested quote + On August 22 2016 16:00 bigredhoss wrote: while i agree that people's motivation for lying is usually more self-serving than they like to admit, i don't think what you say is always true. when i was in Bolivia i was referred to a friend of a friend's house and invited for dinner. she was an incredibly kind older woman (50's probably) whose husband died in the silver mines and she lived in a tiny little place with a bunch of other family members where she and her sister cooked for everyone. as someone who likes trying new food and enjoys most of it, i just didn't like the food that much. but when she asked me how it was, there's no way in hell i was going to say anything besides 'delicious'. i don't think telling the completely honest truth would have benefited her or anyone. it's true that it saved me from facing an unpleasant reaction, but it also saved her feelings from being hurt, and i'm not sure to what extent she can 'improve' at cooking/getting fresher ingredients given that she lives in poverty. (and it's not even clear that she should want to, her family is probably used to eating that food and like it) this is interesting, i chose not tot lie to someone just today at the gym not really thinking and it looked like it devastated him which made me feel like a dick. basically i haven't seen him in 6 weeks and last time we talked he mentioned his weight goal. so first thing he says after we strike up a conversation was 'yo man! i hit my target weight! can you tell?' and without even thinking I just told him not really, I thought he looked the same. it seemed to have really put him down or hurt him even though he handled it well. in hindsight I would argue lying here in my spot is probably the superior option in every way, but i'm curious what others might think.

agree with Smuft again, i think honesty was the best response in your situation. given that he asked you about his appearance, his fitness goals must be at least partially aesthetic. from your answer he can conclude that either

a) arbitrary weightloss goals don't automatically translate to looking better, and he should shift his goal toward lean body mass rather than focusing on the number on the scale, and/or:

b) he needs to approach his fitness endeavors with more patience because 6 weeks isn't enough time to create a noticeable change (which may or may not be true depending on what kind of shape he started out in), or:

c) time to stop exercising like a pussy.

On August 22 2016 19:11 nolan wrote: Show nested quote + On August 22 2016 16:00 bigredhoss wrote: while i agree that people's motivation for lying is usually more self-serving than they like to admit, i don't think what you say is always true. when i was in Bolivia i was referred to a friend of a friend's house and invited for dinner. she was an incredibly kind older woman (50's probably) whose husband died in the silver mines and she lived in a tiny little place with a bunch of other family members where she and her sister cooked for everyone. as someone who likes trying new food and enjoys most of it, i just didn't like the food that much. but when she asked me how it was, there's no way in hell i was going to say anything besides 'delicious'. i don't think telling the completely honest truth would have benefited her or anyone. it's true that it saved me from facing an unpleasant reaction, but it also saved her feelings from being hurt, and i'm not sure to what extent she can 'improve' at cooking/getting fresher ingredients given that she lives in poverty. (and it's not even clear that she should want to, her family is probably used to eating that food and like it) this is interesting, i chose not tot lie to someone just today at the gym not really thinking and it looked like it devastated him which made me feel like a dick. basically i haven't seen him in 6 weeks and last time we talked he mentioned his weight goal. so first thing he says after we strike up a conversation was 'yo man! i hit my target weight! can you tell?' and without even thinking I just told him not really, I thought he looked the same. it seemed to have really put him down or hurt him even though he handled it well. in hindsight I would argue lying here in my spot is probably the superior option in every way, but i'm curious what others might think.

I think that for empathetic people, like you apparently are, that it can be a type of sacrifice to tell the truth instead of sugar coating things. Because you are empathetic so you feel some pain in response to pain others feel. But pain isn't always bad for people. Even if people don't respond well immediately, because truth can be hard to accept, I think it probably still has a positive effect in the long run.

On August 22 2016 19:11 nolan wrote: Show nested quote + On August 22 2016 16:00 bigredhoss wrote: while i agree that people's motivation for lying is usually more self-serving than they like to admit, i don't think what you say is always true. when i was in Bolivia i was referred to a friend of a friend's house and invited for dinner. she was an incredibly kind older woman (50's probably) whose husband died in the silver mines and she lived in a tiny little place with a bunch of other family members where she and her sister cooked for everyone. as someone who likes trying new food and enjoys most of it, i just didn't like the food that much. but when she asked me how it was, there's no way in hell i was going to say anything besides 'delicious'. i don't think telling the completely honest truth would have benefited her or anyone. it's true that it saved me from facing an unpleasant reaction, but it also saved her feelings from being hurt, and i'm not sure to what extent she can 'improve' at cooking/getting fresher ingredients given that she lives in poverty. (and it's not even clear that she should want to, her family is probably used to eating that food and like it) this is interesting, i chose not tot lie to someone just today at the gym not really thinking and it looked like it devastated him which made me feel like a dick. basically i haven't seen him in 6 weeks and last time we talked he mentioned his weight goal. so first thing he says after we strike up a conversation was 'yo man! i hit my target weight! can you tell?' and without even thinking I just told him not really, I thought he looked the same. it seemed to have really put him down or hurt him even though he handled it well. in hindsight I would argue lying here in my spot is probably the superior option in every way, but i'm curious what others might think.

Social skills level asperger. Of course you are supposed to say something positive to him even if you don't notice the difference.

On August 22 2016 23:29 RiKD wrote: The more life I live the more important I find it to be honest with myself and others. Denial, delusion, rationalization, self-justification are all bad things in the long run. It has done some magical things for me to strive to be the right size for my situation and be as honest as I can. It has allowed a lot of my insecurities to fade away. I used to lie and exaggerate a lot for all sorts of different reasons.

I go back and forth all the time from this being my default belief to living as far from reality as convenient. These thought's aren't all fleshed out in my own head but at the moment I think your perceived reality is much more "real" than actual reality. I'm sure I'll get flak for that comment.