Setting a trap with Kings gone wrong

On May 18 2016 19:16 TimDawg wrote: Actually I think Greenwood played the hand OK The other guy in the hand is a complete monkey though and his play on every single street is awful

Kanit's turn check is at least ok, river stndrd. So u mean pre and flop? Greenwood may be jamming pre in that spot a decent amount and so his raise may get enough folds vs a very polarized range to be +ev in and of itself. On flop he may just not want to get knocked off his equity on a board that is obviously favorable to Greenwood. He probably just check a lot there regardless of his hand

On May 19 2016 15:55 uiCk wrote: Show nested quote + On May 18 2016 19:16 TimDawg wrote: Actually I think Greenwood played the hand OK The other guy in the hand is a complete monkey though and his play on every single street is awful Whats the reasoning behind it being a good play?

What makes it OK is the fact that the BB is a batshit crazy monkey that is liable to raise a trash hand and barrell off

On May 19 2016 17:43 traxamillion wrote: Show nested quote + On May 18 2016 19:16 TimDawg wrote: Actually I think Greenwood played the hand OK The other guy in the hand is a complete monkey though and his play on every single street is awful Kanit's turn check is at least ok, river stndrd. So u mean pre and flop? Greenwood may be jamming pre in that spot a decent amount and so his raise may get enough folds vs a very polarized range to be +ev in and of itself. On flop he may just not want to get knocked off his equity on a board that is obviously favorable to Greenwood. He probably just check a lot there regardless of his hand

Yeah i agree on the turn, it's ok. But just based on his flop play, it just appears to me that he is just clicking buttons everywhere and has no legitimate reasons for doing what he is doing. I've played with Greenwood live before and watched some of his vids on RIO. I don't think this is a spot where he is limp/folding much of anything. There just isn't a defense you can come up in this particular scenario for raising an absolute shit hand like 92o

Also, I fail to see how this board connects better with Greenwood's range than the BB's. What are we assuming Greenwood's limp/calling here? All the sets seem unlikely. Maybe you can give him some SC's/suited one gapper type stuff but that seems a bit unlikely as well. The guy in BB is raising 92o! So he is basically totally uncapped in this spot, right? He has a great flop to start barreling off on, especially with his 9 blocker and chooses to check. This is just pure button clicking.

I'm not disagreeing with u just hypothesizing why he might be doing it (if he's thinking about it. This guy is supposed to be pretty sick good so hard to imagine him straight clicking. But tourneys could be)

On May 19 2016 23:28 traxamillion wrote: I'm not disagreeing with u just hypothesizing why he might be doing it (if he's thinking about it. This guy is supposed to be pretty sick good so hard to imagine him straight clicking. But tourneys could be)

ok, i gotcha

and sick...because he's won a lot of tournaments.... ?

you limp 3 bet.. if you think his hand is tramparent, then you limp 3Bet shit hands and force him to fold.

The fact that villian didnt barrel off with no showdownable hand on the flop and turns shows that the play with KK is awful

I don't really see the point of continuing to slow play with KK after that flop, at that point I would just start betting.

Don't think Kanit played it poorly postflop on any street. Given pot to stack ratio, if he bet flop it'd be mad ugly if he got jammed on and that prob happens quite a lot, don't mind taking free card at all. Turn, same again + showdown value, and river is obv standard. Pre was obv bad as a standard. How is he supposed to barrel off postflop anyway, bet 25% pot each street? If he bets like 40% pot on flop there's <1 pot to stack ratio left on the turn. I don't necessarily agree with the whole "if you have no showdown value you must cbet" mentality so many seem to have these days anyway, you end up with only showdownable hands on turn which villains can exploit by underbluffing turns and overbluff check raising flops against your flop range which is overall too weak

if that was referred to me I didnt say that his check with non showdownable value hand is awful, I said the fact that he didnt makes the play with KK even more awful.

Nah, I got what you were saying. More a disagreement with TimDawg's views on postflop. I obv agree Kanit's pf play is bad and I didn't even say anything about Greenwood's play, so no argument there. I don't have a problem with anyone disagreeing with Kanit's flop play, I think it's fine either way, but stating his play is flat out awful on every street and he's clicking buttons postflop when he's very successful and clearly knows what he's doing seems a bit ridiculous to me. I don't see an issue with any street played postflop anyway, think it's harsh to suggest he played it that bad. Each to their own anyway, just staying my opinion and why I think the postflop play by Kanit was perfectly reasonable

On May 20 2016 08:55 Zendi wrote: I don't really see the point of continuing to slow play with KK after that flop, at that point I would just start betting.

The idea was to induce a delayed cbet. I'm not saying I love Greenwood's play, because I don't, but I think people tend to be so results oriented when someone tries something unorthodox and it backfires. Nobody would have said a word if Kanit had checked back flop with QTo and bet turn. The commentators are the same, they'd prob be praising his genius play and how he got max value. It's quite annoying really, but I suppose to the uneducated crowd that kind of commentary appeals to them rather than having the big picture analysed deeply in every spot so I can understand it. Prob wouldn't have Poker on TV at all if some boring anal cunt like me was commentating ;D

Also, although I definitely do not like Kanit's preflop play, he's not retarded so there has to be some thought process. Things he could be thinking about include a) Because of Greenwood's stacksize, he might assume he is seldom limp/calling and that he's either limp/jamming, or limp/folding. With this stack size, the limp call does look quite trappy, in a spot where he'd just be limp/jamming a lot of stuff. This could add extra reasoning for Kanit's flop play, if he senses the limp/call is often a trap b) Playability of 92o blows so he doesn't care if he gets jammed on with it and if he assumes Greenwood isn't calling much, the value of his hand doesn't even matter a great deal if he's not playing postflop with it much c) The graphic doesn't show all the stack sizes and I can't be arsed to rewatch the video, but it's a final table so ICM comes into it. Kanit covers by a lot so Greenwood knows Kanit will be getting it in a lot vs him and Greenwood's tournament life is at stake. As a result, Greenwood is meant to get it in less often than he would if it was winner takes all or any other situation where ICM is irrelevant - presumably increasing Kanit's pf fold equity

I think Kanit's preflop play is somewhat defensible, but still not good. Greenwood probably thought most if not all of this at the time and recognised it'd be a spot Kanit would be putting pressure on him a lot so got greedy and tried to induce further. Still, think the flat is somewhat transparent and Kanit read it and adjusted well postflop.

On May 18 2016 08:32 Baalim wrote: if he is raicing ATC why is he flat calling KK oop... .

this doesnt make any sense
if kanit is raising any2 when the SB limps, SB needs to put some strong hands in the limping range to protect it
apparently that's what the SB did and he probably knew that kanit was a monkey spewtard and adjusted correctly, since he got a raise from a really shitty hand

On May 21 2016 16:33 drone666 wrote: Show nested quote + On May 18 2016 08:32 Baalim wrote: if he is raicing ATC why is he flat calling KK oop... . this doesnt make any sense if kanit is raising any2 when the SB limps, SB needs to put some strong hands in the limping range to protect it apparently that's what the SB did and he probably knew that kanit was a monkey spewtard and adjusted correctly, since he got a raise from a really shitty hand

The way to punish someone raising ATC is not to call OOP, is to limp/raising them very wide, so no, he didnt adjust well.

On May 20 2016 15:17 ToT)MidiaN( wrote: Don't think Kanit played it poorly postflop on any street. Given pot to stack ratio, if he bet flop it'd be mad ugly if he got jammed on and that prob happens quite a lot, don't mind taking free card at all. Turn, same again + showdown value, and river is obv standard. Pre was obv bad as a standard. How is he supposed to barrel off postflop anyway, bet 25% pot each street? If he bets like 40% pot on flop there's <1 pot to stack ratio left on the turn. I don't necessarily agree with the whole "if you have no showdown value you must cbet" mentality so many seem to have these days anyway, you end up with only showdownable hands on turn which villains can exploit by underbluffing turns and overbluff check raising flops against your flop range which is overall too weak

I'm not subscribing to the idea of "if you have no showdown you must cbet".

What I am subscribing to is bluffing with a hand that contains a blocker to the nuts and is very near the bottom of our range in a given spot

On May 20 2016 05:24 Baalim wrote: you limp 3 bet.. if you think his hand is tramparent, then you limp 3Bet shit hands and force him to fold. The fact that villian didnt barrel off with no showdownable hand on the flop and turns shows that the play with KK is awful

I still can't quite get this line of thought.

I'm not saying I think the limp/call is a fantastic way to play the hand pre or the way I would've played it but I'm just saying it's not bad. And I have a hard time understanding how we correlate our opponents post flop play in this one particular hand to whether the pre flop play is good or not. I just think it's being results oriented.

In some other random universe, where BB just barrels it off on a different board the pre flop play looks great and maybe we wouldn't be having these discussions

Haha the SB tried so hard to get a check/raise on the flop and again on the turn, backfired perfectly. The BB played his hand great, you can't really bet that flop as any draw or pair would shove on you with those stack sizes, especially if you are seing as an aggro monkey.

On May 25 2016 20:02 TimDawg wrote: Show nested quote + On May 20 2016 05:24 Baalim wrote: you limp 3 bet.. if you think his hand is tramparent, then you limp 3Bet shit hands and force him to fold. The fact that villian didnt barrel off with no showdownable hand on the flop and turns shows that the play with KK is awful I still can't quite get this line of thought. I'm not saying I think the limp/call is a fantastic way to play the hand pre or the way I would've played it but I'm just saying it's not bad. And I have a hard time understanding how we correlate our opponents post flop play in this one particular hand to whether the pre flop play is good or not. I just think it's being results oriented. In some other random universe, where BB just barrels it off on a different board the pre flop play looks great and maybe we wouldn't be having these discussions

in an alternate universe where opponent barrels well if you have guaranteed a barrel off then ofcourse flat calling has better merits, but he didnt with a very cbettable hand which means his flat pre is simply bad.

the way to punish a guy raising with 92o IP is to CR him very light

On May 25 2016 19:52 TimDawg wrote: Show nested quote + On May 20 2016 15:17 ToT)MidiaN( wrote: Don't think Kanit played it poorly postflop on any street. Given pot to stack ratio, if he bet flop it'd be mad ugly if he got jammed on and that prob happens quite a lot, don't mind taking free card at all. Turn, same again + showdown value, and river is obv standard. Pre was obv bad as a standard. How is he supposed to barrel off postflop anyway, bet 25% pot each street? If he bets like 40% pot on flop there's <1 pot to stack ratio left on the turn. I don't necessarily agree with the whole "if you have no showdown value you must cbet" mentality so many seem to have these days anyway, you end up with only showdownable hands on turn which villains can exploit by underbluffing turns and overbluff check raising flops against your flop range which is overall too weak I'm not subscribing to the idea of "if you have no showdown you must cbet". What I am subscribing to is bluffing with a hand that contains a blocker to the nuts and is very near the bottom of our range in a given spot

Don't think blocking the nuts is very relevant at all with a pot to stack ratio of roughly 2. Villain is going to see K5 type hands as the nuts (Might have remembered board incorrectly, iirc it was 875?). imo it's a lot more important to realise the equity of the hand than attempt to bluff opponent off of random K/Q/J high hands on flop. I think a ton of villains range is going to have gutshot or better, pair or better on this board texture and it's jamming often, taking us off our equity in a spot where we often have 7 outs. Fold equity is low in the first place, he's likely not got that many high card hands that completely whiff as many of them would limp/jam pre or open raise/open jam. Plus, there's nothing to stop us delayed bluffing on some runouts, we don't have to bluff flop to successfully bluff at some point in the hand.

In any case, I'm not saying a bet is bad, just thought it was harsh how you said he's clueless and is clicking buttons when I think his play postflop makes 100% perfect sense

On May 25 2016 08:14 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On May 21 2016 16:33 drone666 wrote:   On May 18 2016 08:32 Baalim wrote: if he is raicing ATC why is he flat calling KK oop... . this doesnt make any sense if kanit is raising any2 when the SB limps, SB needs to put some strong hands in the limping range to protect it apparently that's what the SB did and he probably knew that kanit was a monkey spewtard and adjusted correctly, since he got a raise from a really shitty hand The way to punish someone raising ATC is not to call OOP, is to limp/raising them very wide, so no, he didnt adjust well.

lol no, play some spin and go's where the stack sizes are similar and you get a lot of these situations
limp/3bet KK would be awful vs someone raising any 2 cards

you still get limp/shove hands but it should contain hands like 55 or K7o