https://www.liquidpoker.net/


LP international Poland latinoamerica Iceland    Contact            Users: 106 Active, 10 Logged in - Time: 09:18

Is it possible for AI to be conscious?

New to LiquidPoker? Register here for free!
Forum Index > General
 1 
  2 
  3 
  4 
  > 
  Last 
  All 
FMLuser   Canada. Apr 14 2016 22:26. Posts 45

So I shared a paper that I was writing for a Philosophy Class with a couple of LPers about if it is possible to create a conscious AI and got some mixed response. I am not talking about computationally intelligent but rather an AI that had a mind similar to ours or possibly that of an animal. An AI that we would have to say "okay your conscious so we should give you some rights". So what does the rest of LP think is Strong AI possible? In the future will we live in an age with computers that are conscious? or are they just machines that behave as if they are conscious?

Facebook Twitter

Baalim   Mexico. Apr 14 2016 23:06. Posts 31199

Of course they can be conscious, consciousness is a byproduct of intelligence, we can see it in varying degrees in different animals

Ex-PokerStars Team Pro Online 

FMLuser   Canada. Apr 14 2016 23:25. Posts 45


  On April 14 2016 22:06 Baalim wrote:
Of course they can be conscious, consciousness is a byproduct of intelligence, we can see it in varying degrees in different animals



Can you clarify? My calculator can perform some pretty complex math equations that if a person could perform then we would consider them highly intelligent, so is my calculator conscious? Are you saying that only the intelligent animals are conscious or are like ants conscious too? Are Micro chips really analogous to living flesh?


gawdawaful   Canada. Apr 15 2016 00:06. Posts 8797

You should probably define what your view of conscious is first so people don't end up arguing on different ideas of what conscious is or should be. For example, Pavlov demonstrated positive and negative reinforcement with dogs, so to me at least, the dog is conscious in knowing that certain action has certain results or consequences. But do dogs know looking at the mirror that is their reflection? Do they need to in order for you to consider dogs conscious?

Im only good at poker when I run good 

Smuft   Canada. Apr 15 2016 00:10. Posts 614


  On April 14 2016 23:06 gawdawaful wrote:
You should probably define what your view of conscious is first so people don't end up arguing on different ideas of what conscious is or should be. For example, Pavlov demonstrated positive and negative reinforcement with dogs, so to me at least, the dog is conscious in knowing that certain action has certain results or consequences. But do dogs know looking at the mirror that is their reflection? Do they need to in order for you to consider dogs conscious?



+1


Santafairy   Korea (South). Apr 15 2016 00:37. Posts 1165

it's philosophy you can't define what you mean because then you'll figure out it's untestable

It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen 

FMLuser   Canada. Apr 15 2016 00:46. Posts 45

By conscious I mean does the AI have a mind? or does the AI only simulate or appear to have a mind? Is strong AI possible or weak AI only? If I say to the AI "I am feel sad", does it understand the subjective mental state I have.


FMLuser   Canada. Apr 15 2016 00:55. Posts 45


  On April 14 2016 23:37 Santafairy wrote:
it's philosophy you can't define what you mean because then you'll figure out it's untestable



We can use necessary and sufficient conditions to define things like triangles or squares. It is conceivable that we could define necessary and sufficient conditions for what makes something conscious. However there are very strong arguments put forward by some very smart people as to why or why not an AI system has a mind.



It should also be something we work towards solving because pretty soon AIs will be driving our cars and other things like if these AIs are conscious and have some sort of inner subjective mental life ethically speaking they should have rights


Big_Rob_isback   United States. Apr 15 2016 01:24. Posts 166

I dont think we are at that point with a.i. Just go watch the movie a.i. by Spielberg... the whole premise is a.i. consciousness and ethics. I really liked the movie, but I guess most people dont, idk why. I guess im a weird dude : )

just playing live poker for fun 

traxamillion   United States. Apr 15 2016 01:43. Posts 10239


  On April 14 2016 22:06 Baalim wrote:
Of course they can be conscious, consciousness is a byproduct of intelligence, we can see it in varying degrees in different animals



Wrong. Consciousness has certainly not been quantified yet.


Baalim   Mexico. Apr 15 2016 02:02. Posts 31199


  On April 14 2016 22:25 FMLuser wrote:
Show nested quote +



Can you clarify? My calculator can perform some pretty complex math equations that if a person could perform then we would consider them highly intelligent, so is my calculator conscious? Are you saying that only the intelligent animals are conscious or are like ants conscious too? Are Micro chips really analogous to living flesh?


So can an abacus or many methods for arithmetic, doing operations quickly isnt A.I., I dont think you could call ants conscious but its a matter of semantics and Im not sure if thats what you are discussing, maybe you are since this was exposed to philosophers who have no fucking clue about A.I. and will only probably debate consciousness itself.

Ex-PokerStars Team Pro Online 

Baalim   Mexico. Apr 15 2016 02:04. Posts 31199


  On April 15 2016 00:43 traxamillion wrote:
Show nested quote +



Wrong. Consciousness has certainly not been quantified yet.


not like a number, nor intelligence, but we can safely say that we are more aware than a cat, and a cat is more aware than a beetle etc.

Ex-PokerStars Team Pro Online 

Smuft   Canada. Apr 15 2016 02:06. Posts 614


  On April 14 2016 23:46 FMLuser wrote:
By conscious I mean does the AI have a mind? or does the AI only simulate or appear to have a mind? Is strong AI possible or weak AI only? If I say to the AI "I am feel sad", does it understand the subjective mental state I have.



this still seems way too vague a definition

any other examples besides "understanding sadness"?



Svenman87   United States. Apr 15 2016 02:22. Posts 4636

I think the definition changes depending on the subject you're talking about - an AI Conscious would be very different to a human consciousness imo; maybe they could potentially reach a level where humans would not be classified as conscious.

I'm just hoping I can get plugged into the internets.


FMLuser   Canada. Apr 15 2016 02:32. Posts 45

Maybe a better way to frame question is in terms of the Turing Test. One of the major goals is to have an AI pass the Turing Test

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test

So if an AI were to pass the Turing test would you consider it to have a mind?
Some people have objected to this saying that computers only have a understanding of syntax and not semantics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room


Baalim   Mexico. Apr 15 2016 05:43. Posts 31199

the Turing test? come on, that probably will take 1 or 2 decades at most.


I dont see how this is even a discussion, where do people think consciousness comes from? magic? a soul?

Consciousness derives from intelligence, brain complexity, when A.I. have software and hardware enough for complex intelligence it will become self aware, the fact this was discussed with philosophers and not computer scientists makes me lose hope that this is an endless discussion about what is consciousness and nothing to do actually with AI

Ex-PokerStars Team Pro OnlineLast edit: 15/04/2016 06:19

Smuft   Canada. Apr 15 2016 05:56. Posts 614


  On April 15 2016 04:43 Baalim wrote:
the Turing test? come on, that probably will take 1 or 2 decades at most.


I dont see how this is even a discussion, where do people think consciousness comes from? magic? a soul?

Consciousness derives from intelligence, brain complexity, when A.I. have software and hardware enough for complex intelligence it will become self aware, the fact this was discussed with philosophers and not computer scientists makes me lose hope.



i generally lean towards the points you are making but with much less confidence

considering the thread is struggling to even define the key word in the initial question, the answer to that question seems very open to interpretation

what definition of "consciousness" are you working with that gives you such a confident view on the subject?


FMLuser   Canada. Apr 15 2016 06:10. Posts 45


  On April 15 2016 04:43 Baalim wrote:
the Turing test? come on, that probably will take 1 or 2 decades at most.


I dont see how this is even a discussion, where do people think consciousness comes from? magic? a soul?

Consciousness derives from intelligence, brain complexity, when A.I. have software and hardware enough for complex intelligence it will become self aware, the fact this was discussed with philosophers and not computer scientists makes me lose hope.



Fail to see how a how a computer scientist is more qualified to decide weather or not something has consciousness then a philosopher. And actually in regards to the Turing test that will likely be passed with in the next couple years. But does passing the Turing test show that something is actually conscious? Here is a thought experiment from John Searle a professor Berkeley

"Searle argues that a good way to test a theory of mind, say a theory that holds that understanding can be created by doing such and such, is to imagine what it would be like to do what the theory says would create understanding. Searle (1999) summarized the Chinese Room argument concisely:

Imagine a native English speaker who knows no Chinese locked in a room full of boxes of Chinese symbols (a data base) together with a book of instructions for manipulating the symbols (the program). Imagine that people outside the room send in other Chinese symbols which, unknown to the person in the room, are questions in Chinese (the input). And imagine that by following the instructions in the program the man in the room is able to pass out Chinese symbols which are correct answers to the questions (the output). The program enables the person in the room to pass the Turing Test for understanding Chinese but he does not understand a word of Chinese."


auffenpuffer   Finland. Apr 15 2016 08:39. Posts 1429

i just came to cite Chinese room argument, but I see that's taken care of.

As for the question of where does consciousness come from, I'd say that I don't know but it most certainly won't come from a computer that is essentially a Turing machine (such as all digital computers we possess). Turing machine is a model of computation where execution proceeds in steps, each of which is determined by a symbol stored in memory and an input symbol. This is exactly the case Chinese room is concerned with. Digital computers have main memory and a list of input symbols (i.e. program code is machine language stored to main memory), and execution proceeds by manipulating symbols in main memory according to set instructions (e.g. "if register 1 holds 001101010, move the contents of operand register to computing unit and set negation flag to operation register, then store results" ). These instructions are so lengthy and detailed that they can give the impression of something profound going on, while in actual fact everything is strictly determined by program code. The Chinese room argument serves to make obvious that there is nothing more to it than following set rules very quickly.

We have other models of computation too, some of which are not equivalent to a Turing machine. I'd say that to model consciousness we need a fundamentally different model, something that can escape Searle's counter-argument. Afaik there has not been much effort dedicated to devising such model because mostly theory of computation is concerned with, well, modeling computation of machines we have, and not speculating on the fundamentals of human mind.

anyway I don't see what's there relevance of Turing test at all, even if we set the Chinese room aside. A pocket calculator can tell us what 2+2 is, but we are not tempted to say it's conscious because of that. If the pocket calculator would be able to tell us what is it's favorite food, how's the weather been lately, what it thinks about the news of the day etc., it would pass the Turing test but I still would not be tempted to say it's conscious is any sense.

 Last edit: 15/04/2016 08:50

Baalim   Mexico. Apr 15 2016 09:17. Posts 31199


  On April 15 2016 04:56 Smuft wrote:
Show nested quote +



i generally lean towards the points you are making but with much less confidence

considering the thread is struggling to even define the key word in the initial question, the answer to that question seems very open to interpretation

what definition of "consciousness" are you working with that gives you such a confident view on the subject?



Well if we dont asume a simple pragmatical meaning of "conscience" then this thread is useless, and it should be renamed to "what is consciousness" and that would be a pretty useless thread.

I guess I would broadly define it as self-awareness and self-improvement

Ex-PokerStars Team Pro OnlineLast edit: 15/04/2016 09:34

 
 1 
  2 
  3 
  4 
  > 
  Last 
  All 





Poker Streams


















Copyright © 2017. LiquidPoker.net All Rights Reserved
Contact Advertise Sitemap