Greek crisis: Banks shut for a week

capitalism died in 1913

On June 29 2015 00:00 Spitfiree wrote: cliffs on how this happened: Taxes in Greece are absurdly low Eventhough they are low, taxpayers dont pay them Their social system pays waaaaaaaaaay too much, huge pensions and shit Their pension age is 57 Thats not even something they cannot fix, they lack budget income and have huge expenses. Last proposal Cypras did was increasing certain taxes and possibly the pension age and EU told him to fuck off and that they dont want tax increases but budget costs cuts, which is obviously the only normal any adequate human being would want considering that even if they increase the taxes people still wont fucking pay them. Cypras however is a uber socialistic fuck that should be burned together with all of his proletariat brothers and didn't wanna cut pensions and shit so instead now they wont have money for anything. Way to go... Guess they deserve it considering they voted for him, but then again I don't beleive in voting Pipeline project wont happen since my country told Russia to fuck off and so did Turkey so they can't really reach Greece anyways Greece's administration just makes it look like they are getting bullied when in fact the EU, IMF and all of the negotiators just reached their breaking point after many many proposals. Greece was arrogant enough to ask for a release from the debt and im happy that the EU wasnt dumb enough to actually approve of that Sadly a lot of people will get fucked cause the administration are braindead egoistic pieces of shit edit: Also Defrag they are limited to 600-700eu per day per card from ATMs not 60 lawl :D problem is the banks cant keep up with money supply, considering there are queues at ATMs

Mostly correct except the statement that taxes in Greece are absurdly low. Not even close to true. This comes from the incorrect assumption that higher taxes = increased tax revenue, which is not true.

A) Because an environment of high taxes increases the temptation to evade but more importantly
B) High taxes, which Greece has had compared a purely capitalistic model, discourages risk and entrepenuership which actually creates real wealth and sustainable tax revenue

In truth, it's simply that their economies import/export ratio is pathetic, which means that in order to keep their quality of life from lowering relative to other nations, they needed to borrow or balance their deficit. Instead of sucking in up and creating real economic growth through short-term painful change, they chose the easy way out (like most fiscally progressive entities do) and borrowed irresponsibly because that's what the stupid people want and that's what they'll vote for.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/30/bus...ook/the-hard-line-on-greece.html?_r=0
really interesting article

I haven't followed the Greek crisis, but I stumbled upon this recent video after I watched a different video on the same YouTube channel.

The video probably doesn't add anything new to the conversation, but it is new for me because, as I previously stated, I haven't followed the Greek crisis up until now.

On July 10 2015 09:58 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On July 10 2015 01:36 dogmeat wrote:   On July 08 2015 10:58 lebowski wrote:   On July 08 2015 08:50 dogmeat wrote:   On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies read this a couple of times and think about logical fail in this idiom I wrote "evil capitalist lobbies", I was trying to be ridiculous from the left point of view to contrast with the "EU commies", I dunno what your point is you can hardly call it capitalism when one can gain advantage on the market by lobbying but lobbying is everywhere (unavoidable in capitalism according to marxists), should we inform the communists that the system they're fighting isn't capitalism?

The fuck are you talking about, actually it is a minority of countries who allow private funding to politicians, in most democracies that is a serious crime and political parties are funded by taxes.

And yes a state heavily controlled, wallstreet manipulated and central bank funded economy is certainly not capitalism

And yes a state heavily controlled, wallstreet manipulated and central bank funded economy is certainly not capitalism

But there is a new economy emerging now, and its not centrally banked. And although wallstreet has tried to get involved. The new regulations basically restrict it from participated in this new not central banked economy.

On August 10 2015 03:58 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On July 10 2015 09:58 lebowski wrote:   On July 10 2015 01:36 dogmeat wrote:   On July 08 2015 10:58 lebowski wrote:   On July 08 2015 08:50 dogmeat wrote:   On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies read this a couple of times and think about logical fail in this idiom I wrote "evil capitalist lobbies", I was trying to be ridiculous from the left point of view to contrast with the "EU commies", I dunno what your point is you can hardly call it capitalism when one can gain advantage on the market by lobbying but lobbying is everywhere (unavoidable in capitalism according to marxists), should we inform the communists that the system they're fighting isn't capitalism? The fuck are you talking about, actually it is a minority of countries who allow private funding to politicians, in most democracies that is a serious crime and political parties are funded by taxes. And yes a state heavily controlled, wallstreet manipulated and central bank funded economy is certainly not capitalism

Just because private funding for political parties is regulated/not permitted you think there's no lobbying? Do I really need to start mentioning examples?
Maybe there's no political corruption in mexico and I'm influenced by what's happening in Greece, do you find that regulations tend to keep the media independent and unbiased as well?

Words are only tools to describe stuff, to try and give a popularly used word a new, different meaning is simply non practical; usually the main (political) motivation to try to reestablish a word's meaning is that stupid people tend to think in slogans. (eg "terrorism" )
Capitalism is a word that has been broadly used for hundreds of years describing something other than the corruption/lobby/state free utopia that you have in mind. Assuming that you don't think ill of this forum's avg IQ, focusing on the orthodox definition of words is completely pointless

your ignorance puts me on tilt, basically everything you spewed out in this thread was nonsense

i call you a retard, assuming that you don't think ill of this forum's avg IQ, focusing on the orthodox definition of a retard is completely pointless

it's an honour to be called a retard by you man.
If you wish you can correct my ignorance on my last post (all of them would be too much)

I don't give a single fuck on what you think this system should be called, or what capitalism really is according to your unique pov . All I know is that most people call it capitalism and that's why I used this word. Words are tools.
Now go somewhere to personally attack someone who values your opinions

I just read the last two pages and I wont comment on the specific situation in Greece but imo it is obvious that some people here have different ideas about what capitalism is. So I think it might be a good idea to set a basis that everyone should agree one.
Iam gonna quote Wikipedia for Capitalism here:

"Capitalism is an economic system and a mode of production in which trade, industries, and the means of production are largely or entirely privately owned. Private firms and proprietorships usually operate in order to generate profit, but may operate as private nonprofit organizations.[1][2] Central characteristics of capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labour and, in some situations, fully competitive markets.[3][4] In a capitalist economy, the parties to a transaction typically determine the prices at which they exchange assets, goods, and services.[5]"
Source: first lines of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

Of course this should be common knowledge to everyone that is commenting on capitalism in this thread by reading along the comments I got a feeling that some of the posters are definitely not aware of the "definition".

On August 10 2015 13:55 punix wrote:In a capitalist economy, the parties to a transaction typically determine the prices at which they exchange assets, goods, and services.[5]"

wage, price settings, protectionism, tariffs +billion of other regulations,
special mention: central banking

On August 10 2015 13:55 punix wrote: I just read the last two pages and I wont comment on the specific situation in Greece but imo it is obvious that some people here have different ideas about what capitalism is. So I think it might be a good idea to set a basis that everyone should agree one. Iam gonna quote Wikipedia for Capitalism here: "Capitalism is an economic system and a mode of production in which trade, industries, and the means of production are largely or entirely privately owned. Private firms and proprietorships usually operate in order to generate profit, but may operate as private nonprofit organizations.[1][2] Central characteristics of capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labour and, in some situations, fully competitive markets.[3][4] In a capitalist economy, the parties to a transaction typically determine the prices at which they exchange assets, goods, and services.[5]" Source: first lines of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism Of course this should be common knowledge to everyone that is commenting on capitalism in this thread by reading along the comments I got a feeling that some of the posters are definitely not aware of the "definition".

apparently this system died in 1913
beware not to put dogmeat on tilt with your copied definitions, he has a short temper

yeah except almost none of these points hold true in current system

On August 10 2015 11:21 lebowski wrote: If you wish you can correct my ignorance on my last post (all of them would be too much)

this whole topic is a collection of you posting bs and others correcting you #greekpride

On August 10 2015 15:21 dogmeat wrote: yeah except almost none of these points hold true in current system Show nested quote + On August 10 2015 11:21 lebowski wrote: If you wish you can correct my ignorance on my last post (all of them would be too much) this whole topic is a collection of you posting bs and others correcting you #greekpride

you are knocking on the wrong door if you think cheap country bashing is going to get on my nerves. I don't even consider myself a patriot.
Btw repeating to someone that they post bs is neither an argument nor a sign of intelligence

Also lol @ almost none of the wiki definition holding true in current system.
Perhaps after a lot of debate you could convince someone of this if you somehow found the skills.
But to hold such a rare perception of wtf is going on with the world and to act like a cardinal who can't even bear with the ignorants thinking otherwise is troll level material

or maybe just think for a second how strict labour regulations and central banking deny these points. i also hope you know central bank, government agency holding monopoly over currency, is one of the points of communist manifesto

Central characteristics of capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labour and, in some situations, fully competitive markets

Interference/regulations from the state were obviously there when the communist manifesto was written. Just because you think state-type intervention holds the system back it doesn't mean that you redefine what a capitalistic society means historically. Whether capitalism can even function without the state intervening is up for debate, my guess is that having a very strong opinion on this isn't by itself enough to convince anyone

since you are insisting on debating over a pretty vague quote from wiki, check this out:
Socialism is a social and economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy,[1][2] as well as a political theory and movement that aims at the establishment of such a system.[3][4] "Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, state ownership (achieved by nationalization), citizen ownership of equity, or any combination of these.[5]

one could post this def and claim "he doesnt give a single fuck on what you think this system should be called, or what socialism really is according to your unique pov"

lebowski has been mostly correct in this thread. any competent observer of how successful austerity is under recession can check all the countries its been applied in, over the past 30 years or so. And we know why the results have always been terrible, because it reduces aggregate demand. So it makes no sense as an economic policy. In fact there arn't that many winners over austerity, the rich are losing as well here (although it is the rich that have been bailed out by the ECB and not the poorer greek people). It cant be that money is the only motive here, The people in power are sending a message to other states, italy, spain, ect. That this is what happens when people get out of line and try to elect a left wing alternative.

All political terms are subject to ideological and real definitions, any reader of Orwell will know this. If capitalism is supposed to be about free markets as well as private enterprise, then one cannot ignore the fact that corporations become more oligopololistc the more influence they get over the state. Plenty of evidence for that, one can read the evidence in a book called 'the endless crisis'. Actually, if economists took these facts into account they would say that capitalism is highly inneficient since it tends to ologipolize(which means resources arn't allocated efficiently in a competitive market). Certainly by the free market definition of capitalism, capitalism has never really existed but especially in the 20th century. since corporations themselves are state interventions in the market, to create limited liability. This means that by definition of free market capitalism, it cannot exist as corporations are a violation of it. However, there have been times where there was pretty much no labor regulation, like in 1810 when there was essentially no regulation in labour and 4 year olds could work in coal mines and the satanic mills

On August 10 2015 16:46 dogmeat wrote: since you are insisting on debating over a pretty vague quote from wiki, check this out: Socialism is a social and economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy,[1][2] as well as a political theory and movement that aims at the establishment of such a system.[3][4] "Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, state ownership (achieved by nationalization), citizen ownership of equity, or any combination of these.[5] one could post this def and claim "he doesnt give a single fuck on what you think this system should be called, or what socialism really is according to your unique pov"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states

If we -at least- agree that words are tools used to efficiently communicate, then judging by the above list of self proclaimed socialist states you'd be misunderstood if you stated that the system we live is socialist.

If eg it ever came to the point that socialism meant exactly communism, I'd have no trouble if you used them interchangeably as long as we managed to understand each other.
The word capitalism historically and in modern use is still massively used to describe systems that also include socialist elements, state intervention etc

Maybe it shouldn't; if you wanted to make a point that the whole thing shouldn't really be called capitalistic, you would have been more effective had you left out the sand in vagina attitude one liners
But no, you have to be the guy who tilts over simple disagreement with his own choice of words, not even disagreement regarding the content of these words

http://imgur.com/gallery/tuG5A