How deep to fold kings preflop?

^proly 'i dont know what to do... shove' line of thinking

i remember some super spewy live casino degen folded KK (showed his cards) to my AA 7bet push lol, we were 6k deep, he had around 2200 of his stack already in the middle. meanwhile i'd instacall his push w QQ+/AKo+

On June 17 2015 14:36 Jelle wrote: All of this is just my opinion and ur probably a much better player than me but when I read these threads I feel like you guys are technical experts who haven't adjusted to playing live at all. Your post reads almost like a hand history from an online hand, and your opponent is a screen name "Random UTG" I stacked off 100bbs vs a very young man for 200 euros once in a live game with KK and when he flipped up his AA he stood up and looked like he was about to have a heart attack. He was so nervous he couldn't even stand to look at the board where a K surely lurked to ensure his doom. I did get lucky and hit a K which caused him to run around the entire building but it always stuck with me that he obviously couldn't have had anything else. If I would have paid attention to him before the hand, maybe talked to him a little bit, (I didn't at all even though he was right next to me) I could have figured out his roll was in play or at least that he was very uncomfortable, and I knew he was even because I knew when he sat down and with how much. Instead I looked down at omgKK and stacked off like a robot. You can and should fold KK pre even for 100bbs vs people who have AA too often. If you're going to play 30 hands an hour let go of silly rules saying you "have to" do x just try your best to estimate their ranges and to take the best action. You are vastly superior to your opponents and should allow yourself to limp, probebet, fold sick nuts, herocall, donkbet, use imbalanced betsizes etc. You should also know stuff about your opponent, you basicly don't know anything about him/her from your post. If you don't care enough to pay attention consider playing higher stakes. Were they young or old? Female or male? Do you think they were nervous/gambling with their case money, or comfortable in the game? Were they losing or winning? Were they the type of person who bets huge when they probably have it to "avoid suckouts", or do they like to take a chance? Were they an actor trying to fool you, or a grinder who's bored out of his mind and mentally checked out of the game? Were they sociable or silent? How much time did they take before 4betting? etc etc etc

this is the best advice in the entire thread and I find it interesting that it is mostly ignored

Think about if you're going to stack off before you 4bet. if you dont want to get it in vs this guy dont 4bet. Unless you have a specific read that he will be light here and call 4bets light but only 5bet AA + or something really specific where you can 4bet not intending to get it in. And as far as Jelle's post i agree with the 2nd half to a large degree but the folding with 100bbs vs people while holding KK does not resonate almost ever. Its possible to get into these spots for sure but very unlikely. perhaps just for me because for example spot from we're talking about. You 4bet KK and didn't want to get it in. Technically you're overplaying the hand in that case. Because you have a very strong suspicion that he wont be getting it in lighter here. And so I generally always think about if i'm getitng it in pre with my big hands etc. So in the example Jelle gave of some super old nit that is crazy tight and I'd be willing to fold KK. that would literally never happen to me ever. I can't imagine ever 4betting one of these people that I'd ever EVER consider folding KK to a shove. it doesnt even make sense to me that people end up in a spot like that. KK can be overplayed. If you 4bet and then have to think too much about the spot when you get the money in. You already fucked up. Thats not to say everytime i 4bet with KK im thrilled about getting it in. But the hand is over as far as being played in my mind. I finished the hand when i 4bet. Unless he peels then I gotta start using brain power again i suppose.

On June 20 2015 09:50 n0rthf4ce wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2015 14:36 Jelle wrote: All of this is just my opinion and ur probably a much better player than me but when I read these threads I feel like you guys are technical experts who haven't adjusted to playing live at all. Your post reads almost like a hand history from an online hand, and your opponent is a screen name "Random UTG" I stacked off 100bbs vs a very young man for 200 euros once in a live game with KK and when he flipped up his AA he stood up and looked like he was about to have a heart attack. He was so nervous he couldn't even stand to look at the board where a K surely lurked to ensure his doom. I did get lucky and hit a K which caused him to run around the entire building but it always stuck with me that he obviously couldn't have had anything else. If I would have paid attention to him before the hand, maybe talked to him a little bit, (I didn't at all even though he was right next to me) I could have figured out his roll was in play or at least that he was very uncomfortable, and I knew he was even because I knew when he sat down and with how much. Instead I looked down at omgKK and stacked off like a robot. You can and should fold KK pre even for 100bbs vs people who have AA too often. If you're going to play 30 hands an hour let go of silly rules saying you "have to" do x just try your best to estimate their ranges and to take the best action. You are vastly superior to your opponents and should allow yourself to limp, probebet, fold sick nuts, herocall, donkbet, use imbalanced betsizes etc. You should also know stuff about your opponent, you basicly don't know anything about him/her from your post. If you don't care enough to pay attention consider playing higher stakes. Were they young or old? Female or male? Do you think they were nervous/gambling with their case money, or comfortable in the game? Were they losing or winning? Were they the type of person who bets huge when they probably have it to "avoid suckouts", or do they like to take a chance? Were they an actor trying to fool you, or a grinder who's bored out of his mind and mentally checked out of the game? Were they sociable or silent? How much time did they take before 4betting? etc etc etc this is the best advice in the entire thread and I find it interesting that it is mostly ignored

1+, I didn't read it all just from the first line, you shouldn't sell yourself short Jelle!

Yo doomer jelle was not talking about any specific hand he was just addressing folding KK in general for 100bb or whatever in live games. It is 9 handed rather than heads up so you don't always have control over potsize. If Bob limps UTG, I raise KK UTG +1, then a couple players behind me call or reraise and then finally Bob shoves; I never made a bad reraise vs a nit putting me in a shit spot vs his subsequent reraise (I think we would all agree raising the UTG limp is fine if not mandatory- not like getting 3bet and deciding whether to 4 or call) but I still ran into a spot where KK no good and fold may be best.

There's definitely a difference though vs forcing ourselves into a bad situation willingly or being forced into one by no fault of our own. Bad situations come about naturally but mistakes that we make willingly are totally a different story. So in the case of the metaphorical 100bbs fold. It almost never comes up live imo.

IF this was forced 3bet/4bet/5bet/6bet

Given this line, if he is raising 10%(132.6combos) than his 6bet shove range should be
JJ+,AKs, AKo(8combos)

and you should be calling
JJ+, AKs, AKo

and you can be 3betting 7.24%

Doesn't mean this is the most profitable strategy, but there is some math.

but the reality is, the preflop raiser should call the 5bet with hands like QQ, JJ, so the numbers change even more, resulting in a larger 3bet percent

so, after doing more numbers
3bet could be around 10.5% = 138.77combos
5bet could be around 4.92% = 65 combos

and preflop raiser should be 6bet shoving KK+, A5s, A4s(1 combo,16.7%)
and calling the 5bet with at least QQ-TT,AQs+,AKo = 38 combos

I would say that is pretty close and if those numbers are not being met, than it is better to switch to an exploitative strategy.

The part that changes the most is the 5bet calling range,
I haven't looked at the numbers in depth but it looks like you can call a lot more 5bets

By the way, as you can see the probability that is happening at 500nl live poker EP vs squeeze is almost 0%, making an exploitative strategy optimal

looking at the first example of pure 3bet/4bet/5bet/6bet, it looks like the expected value is

+38.17 for the preflop raiser

+68.83 for the 3bethero

(clearly omitting some loss of EV vs blinds resqueezing)

The 2nd example with a 5bet calling range, I am not sure how to calculate an expected value and if anyone knows how, would appreciate info

On June 15 2015 20:45 HungarianGOD wrote: Anyway, I had $2000 in a 9-handed 2/5 game, and got involved against the second best player at the table who had $1850.

HungarianDOG y u so silly?

Under the right circumstances it is reasonable to fold KK.

Had to post this for the sake of the thread. Go to around 14:30.

On June 19 2015 10:43 dogmeat wrote: ^proly 'i dont know what to do... shove' line of thinking

Exactly my line of thinking haha

On July 04 2015 03:12 K40Cheddar wrote: Had to post this for the sake of the thread. Go to around 14:30.

beard guy rebought once or twice already,

if old man calls the raise, he is taking his stack 99% of the time post flop. i thought old man played awfully

i had this john morgan millionaire sitting at my table for 8 hours, before i busted in the aria 565$ tourney, last friday . Really nice guy. I made 2 close laydowns vs him and he showed me KK and a flopped full house

On July 10 2015 22:12 mnj wrote: beard guy rebought once or twice already, if old man calls the raise, he is taking his stack 99% of the time post flop. i thought old man played awfully

people stuck tend to gamble more, not less.

but yeah he obv misplayed his Aces.. he is an old recreational player

depends how many vanessa selbst there is on the table