On April 04 2015 00:55 Baalim wrote:
But about your question? what do we gain by denouncing these things? to expose Islam as the backwards and barbaric religion it is. Now you tell me what do we gain by passing a blind eye on it? Will they stop believing if nobody says shit about the things that its done in Allahs name?
Not a bad answer, except it was in regards to the wrong question. I didn't ask what the point of criticizing religion is, especially when it is barbaric etc etc.
First, 2 facts :
a) People who are religious aren't convinced by rational arguments, they have become religious for various reasons that you too mention in your consequent post and it's dumb to expect arguments to change their minds (try convincing people even over the stupidity of zodiac signs and you still probably fail)
b) There's a shit ton of religious people, yes muslims are a LOT of people and I don't mention that as a threat as someone suggested, it's a fact. These people are influenced by a religion that is indeed more barbaric than eg modern day christianity.
So here's what I ask:
How pragmatic is it to attack Islam as a religion overall and expect things to get better in regards to human relations?
Muslim people can either slowly see their religiousness become vague and meaningless (like Christianity has become) and fool themselves that the " real " dogma is about compassion, tolerance etc and slowly forget the war/death worshiping parts through the influence of modernity OR they can feel isolated and threatened by the western world, they can focus on the worst parts of their holy books and suddenly it will all be about west vs Islam; given the levels of stupidity still existent in the developed countries, it will all be about Christians vs Muslims in the end.
You see, what some media are doing when they say things like " this isn't the real Islam " ; etc, is trying to avoid muslim alienation in the west. They don't do that because they're saints, they realize the hazards of turning this into a religious war, or the Islam into a scapegoat religion; if they were lesser in numbers they'd probably join the hate train. On the other hand there are the right wing populists (in many countries in Europe) who try to exploit the barbaric aspects of Islam to gain power from redneck Christians voters. These people want to ascend the power ladder and they're prob ready to start a world war if that's what's going to take.
My eyes hurt when I see posts like ""I'm done separating the good Islamists from the bad"" or something of the sort. I have a good friend who's an atheist and his dad is a muslim who has been socially integrated for years. This is how progress is made: modernity waters down the stupid parts of the religion, the new generations are able to identify the stupidity and move away from it.
Criticism of Islam is good because it affects people who are ready to argue and use logic for such subjects, but the world doesn't consist of such people, by far.
There has to be a way that a religious world war doesn't explode on our faces and making a huge chunk of the world feel alienated certainly has to be the wrong thing to do. We can masturbate to our intellectual superiority and condemn everyone as dangerous brutes OR we can try to swing them to our side through social integration and cultural influence (obv I refer to moderate muslims, not extremists)
My opinion is that the pragmatic route is the second one. I might be influenced because the people who are the most anti Islam are usually acting like brainless fanatics, like they enjoy pointing fingers too much. I'll leave you with a quote from another thread
On March 13 2015 00:05 whamm! wrote:
bisexual president is off putting. he should be shown slamming hot bitches left and right like a legit president - fuck this homoerotic PC bs being shoved in our faces each time they can "ruthless presidents can be gay" - NO they can't
I am waiting for the next wave of PC characters to be shown on TV shows - Islamic president of the U.S. "because they're not all bad"
I have to admit you have quite a compelling argument but first two things must be said:
1 - Its not true that the "left" to call it that way, are simply lying and being pragmatical, its not the first sign of ridiculous political correctness, they are cowards that wont speak up when it needs to be
2 - I dont think speaking the truth would alienate Muslims, conservatives only spill hate against the middle east and that does indeed alienates and generates more radicalism, mainly because they advocate for military intervention
1) the left isn't generally in love with intellectual honesty, but on the specific subject their "political correctness" -or even cowardice if you insist- is actually helpful, even if their argumentation is false/retarded. I'd rather Muslims had a "real Islam vs extremists" take on what's happening than a "west vs Islam" or "Islam vs Christianity" one.
2) Speaking the truth has to be done, but in the spirit of tolerance, which isn't some sort of hippie imperative but an effective way to prevent the lower instincts of people from turning the situation into a shitstorm
It's not like the west is atheistic or rationally thinking. Most people around here are pseudo-Christians who have never seriously doubted their faith or allowed criticism to affect it; they just go with the cultural flow and that changes very slowly. So this isn't going to be a big intellectual battle which could show the world that holy books are slowing humanity down and hopefully reason will prevail; the actual battle is about tolerance vs intolerance. Religious fanatics kill their way into leading two different cultures to clash and populists seize the opportunity to also try to stir shit up, for their own reasons.
Allowing different cultures to peacefully coexist and affect each other is guaranteed to result in the more advanced one becoming predominant; that's what I think the nightmare of a religious zealot is.
new shit has come to light... a-and... shit! man...
awesome posts lebowski. so much islamophobia in the world. and to see so much of it on an internet forum (where people mostly below 30 from all over the world participate) scares me a lot, because that means it is probably even worse at your average work place in western society. nice to see someone who has thought about this one step further and who sees it's not as simple as "islam sucks and needs to be dealt with/gotten rid of".
Do not push the river, it will flow by itself. - Polish proverb
On April 06 2015 18:46 Gumster wrote:
awesome posts lebowski. so much islamophobia in the world. and to see so much of it on an internet forum (where people mostly below 30 from all over the world participate) scares me a lot, because that means it is probably even worse at your average work place in western society. nice to see someone who has thought about this one step further and who sees it's not as simple as "islam sucks and needs to be dealt with/gotten rid of".
+1
I wish one of your guys had children if I could kick them in the fucking head or stomp on their testicles so you can feel my pain because thats the pain I have waking up everyday -- Mike Tyson
1
Stroggoz New Zealand. Apr 06 2015 20:46. Posts 5296
On April 04 2015 10:45 Baalim wrote:
Actually terrorism isnt even a big issue to me, if you see the amounts of death is minimal, I would blindly guess that more people have been killed by the mexican drug war than in all terrorists attacks combined, but obviously the west is terrified of it, despise the fact its more likely they die slipping in their bathtubs.
Well i think terrorism is a massive issue. It's just that no one seems to be able to recognize terrorists unless they are islamic or part of history( KKK, 19th century anarchists, ect). If you look at the definition of terrorism it encompasses almost any form of violence by any major organization, including states, ect. If you look at the definition of terrorism when its given by governments, its defined in a loose and vague way that can include just about anybody, including themselves. That's for good reasons, its so you can legally imprison just about anyone you don't like for doing anything. This is especially true in the third world, China, ect.
However in academia if you read the social sciences definition of terrorism it becomes more narrow. And that's for good propagandistic reasons. You want to define it in a way that fits that only enemies of state power fit the definition. Anyway, it doesn't really matter what the definition is because we are not trained to logically deduce what a terrorist is from the definition anyway. That would be too rational for our society, and intellectuals like sam harris ,ect to handle.. It's not like mathematics where you have to define something, then actually reach logical conclusions from that definition.
On April 04 2015 00:55 Baalim wrote:
All religions are bad but in different degrees, an in todays world Islam is by far the most violent and destructive religion of all as Christianity was hundreds of years ago, and people are so scared to give some partial victory to your average racist redneck they will go as far as going on air with the typical true scottsman fallacy... " oh Isis are not real Muslims."
radical fanatic Christians invaded iraq in 2003, killed hundreds of thousands of people, displaced millions of people. You could compare radical islams external violence to Christianity if they invaded France and killed the same amount of people. internally you have ISIS at the moment which is a monstrosity, but ISIS was mostly caused by the invasion of iraq by christian radicals in the first place. I don't see how radical islam compares to the violence to radical Christians at this point in history.
One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beings
On April 06 2015 18:46 Gumster wrote:
awesome posts lebowski. so much islamophobia in the world. and to see so much of it on an internet forum (where people mostly below 30 from all over the world participate) scares me a lot, because that means it is probably even worse at your average work place in western society. nice to see someone who has thought about this one step further and who sees it's not as simple as "islam sucks and needs to be dealt with/gotten rid of".
You see Lebowski?
Here you are arguing that peopla are being decietful and pragmatical lying about the issue to not polarize the situation and here comes your supporter calling us Islamophobes proving your point wrong.
So Gumster if you read again you will see that everyone agrees that "Islam sucks and needs to be dealt with" Lebowski is saying that not openly criticizing Islam is a more effective way to fight it by not polarizing even more the situation, I dont know if that is true or not but its a reasonable argument unlike your ridiculous claim that anyone who thinks Islam is a problem is an Islamophobe... as if that was even a freaking word, am I a Christianophobe when I say the pope is an oxymoron responsible of thousands of deaths because he forbid the use of condoms in Aids plaged countries? No Im not, Im just being an objective and reasonable human being, just as I am being when I call out Islams bullshit.
Well i think terrorism is a massive issue. It's just that no one seems to be able to recognize terrorists unless they are islamic or part of history( KKK, 19th century anarchists, ect). If you look at the definition of terrorism it encompasses almost any form of violence by any major organization, including states, ect. If you look at the definition of terrorism when its given by governments, its defined in a loose and vague way that can include just about anybody, including themselves. That's for good reasons, its so you can legally imprison just about anyone you don't like for doing anything. This is especially true in the third world, China, ect.
However in academia if you read the social sciences definition of terrorism it becomes more narrow. And that's for good propagandistic reasons. You want to define it in a way that fits that only enemies of state power fit the definition. Anyway, it doesn't really matter what the definition is because we are not trained to logically deduce what a terrorist is from the definition anyway. That would be too rational for our society, and intellectuals like sam harris ,ect to handle.. It's not like mathematics where you have to define something, then actually reach logical conclusions from that definition.
I obviously meant the current acts of terrorism attributed to Islam they are tiny in the amount of direct destruction they cause
radical fanatic Christians invaded iraq in 2003, killed hundreds of thousands of people, displaced millions of people. You could compare radical islams external violence to Christianity if they invaded France and killed the same amount of people. internally you have ISIS at the moment which is a monstrosity, but ISIS was mostly caused by the invasion of iraq by christian radicals in the first place. I don't see how radical islam compares to the violence to radical Christians at this point in history.
If you have read anything Ive said in the years I have been in LiquidPoker most people would stupidly brand me as anti-US, so you can spare me the lectures about it, Im pefectly aware that the US has been waging war and doing massacre after massacre in the middle east breeding more terrorists attacks and keeping this vicious cycle of war.
However the west is fighting an economical and political war, not a religious one, if the problem were the bible belt and the republicans how come Obama who in no remote way represents the radical christians has been waging the same war for almost 8 years?.
And sure Christians will always support war against the middle east, (and pretty much any fucking war) but to try to paint this as a holy war from both sides is ridiculous.
Radical Christians are morons who boycott gay weddings, they dont shoot up 140 kids and behead journalists on camera.
"Radical Christians are morons who boycott gay weddings, they dont shoot up 140 kids and behead journalists on camera.."
ohlol
Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda[edit]
The Lord's Resistance Army, a cult and guerrilla army, was engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government in 2005. It has been accused of using child soldiers and of committing numerous crimes against humanity; including massacres, abductions, mutilation, torture, rape, and using forced child labourers as soldiers, porters, and sex slaves.[62] A quasi-religious movement that mixes some aspects of Christian beliefs with its own brand of spiritualism,[63][64] it is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the "Holy Spirit" which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations.[65][65][66][67] LRA fighters wear rosary beads and recite passages from the Bible before battle
terrorism stems from poverty and specific social and economic conditions; period.
I wish one of your guys had children if I could kick them in the fucking head or stomp on their testicles so you can feel my pain because thats the pain I have waking up everyday -- Mike Tyson
and i wonder how many of you morons iit have actually read quran and hadiths
ban baal
1
traxamillion United States. Apr 07 2015 23:47. Posts 10468
On April 06 2015 18:46 Gumster wrote:
awesome posts lebowski. so much islamophobia in the world. and to see so much of it on an internet forum (where people mostly below 30 from all over the world participate) scares me a lot, because that means it is probably even worse at your average work place in western society. nice to see someone who has thought about this one step further and who sees it's not as simple as "islam sucks and needs to be dealt with/gotten rid of".
Islamaphobia? What's wrong with it anyways. All religions are pretty much dumb and backwards and Islam just happens to be the worst and most destructive of the mainstream ones.
If a group of 50 families in a compound in Utah were the only ones practicing Islam we would all have no problem labeling them as a crazy cult. A problem.
I live in San Francisco, California. Arguably the most tolerant city in this country. Even in the middle of the Castro most people (I'm going to put it nicely) have a strong dislike of Islam.
On April 07 2015 21:43 uiCk wrote:
"Radical Christians are morons who boycott gay weddings, they dont shoot up 140 kids and behead journalists on camera.."
ohlol
Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda[edit]
The Lord's Resistance Army, a cult and guerrilla army, was engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government in 2005. It has been accused of using child soldiers and of committing numerous crimes against humanity; including massacres, abductions, mutilation, torture, rape, and using forced child labourers as soldiers, porters, and sex slaves.[62] A quasi-religious movement that mixes some aspects of Christian beliefs with its own brand of spiritualism,[63][64] it is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the "Holy Spirit" which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations.[65][65][66][67] LRA fighters wear rosary beads and recite passages from the Bible before battle
terrorism stems from poverty and specific social and economic conditions; period.
Its dishonest to jump to african christians when we are clearly talking about the western conservative right, not some tribal warlord in the jungle.
You dont have to tell me about the evils of religion, believe me I am way more aware and against it than you are, and that includes all religions, however to claim that modern christianity is as barbaric as moderm Islam is ridiculous and clearly not true.
So are you arguing that modern christianity is just as barbaric as Islam? because thats one argument you are going to lose
On April 07 2015 21:43 uiCk wrote:
terrorism stems from poverty and specific social and economic conditions; period.
'specific social and economic conditions' you are not being very specific, are you?
I'm sure you can figure them out dogmeat; they are usually in the negative form; poverty and what comes with it.
I wish one of your guys had children if I could kick them in the fucking head or stomp on their testicles so you can feel my pain because thats the pain I have waking up everyday -- Mike Tyson
Dogmeat knows exactly the context that that statement was made with, he's just being argumentative.
I'm totally with baal on the 'F religion' boat, but I disagree that he automatically assumes that islam is the 'most destructive'.
Every time anything terror-related happens, and it even remotely involves islamic extremists - it gets prime time media attention. Therefore, we (as viewers) get a skewed perception of what's really taking place.
I don't have any figures or papers to draw this conclusion from, it's just my opinion. But, I definitely believe Christianity (even today) is a far bigger scourge on society than Islam. All things considered.
Oh I know. Let's take a tiny minority of cases and extrapolate it to the widest spectrum possible!
Just like debating religion with bible thumpers, this isn't a debate. It's a shouting contest cuz no one is willing to look at things from a different angle and possibly change their stance even when confronted with wildly accurate arguments.
1
Santafairy Korea (South). Apr 12 2015 20:30. Posts 2225
On April 07 2015 21:43 uiCk wrote:
terrorism stems from poverty and specific social and economic conditions; period.
No, this is wrong, partly because you went way too far and partly because you're not actually saying anything.
Poverty, okay, sure poverty is a factor. What about all the places with with poverty and no terrorism, like the USA, like Mexico even as people tried to bait Baal with earlier. Sure Mexico has an awful cartel problem. Is that terrorism? I remind you that there are bad things in the world that we don't call terrorism. Gang violence, drug wars, crime, not really terrorism as anyone understands it. Terrorism is about creating fear - through violence - for political reasons. It's not just wherever there's poverty. Do you think maybe the ideology people get indoctrinated into from birth that says to behead nonbelievers during war and to kill people who leave the religion and views rape victims as adulterers - might also be a factor in terrorism?
And what do you mean, poverty? Do you think something like ISIL, or Al Qaeda, the Mumbai attacks, do you think this is cheap? Buying munitions, technology, training camps? What do you mean, poverty? Sure Joe suicide bomber is an uneducated, impressionable, poor (lower class) drone. What about the people pulling the strings? Osama Bin Laden wasn't wealthy? The heroin trade that finances this shit?
Even if it had no history of terrorism, do you think Islam would be a good ideology? Something to build a happy civilization on?
Since you wouldn't clarify what you are talking about with "specific social and economic conditions," even after dogmeat specifically asked you, what you are saying is about as insightful as "terrorism stems from poverty and the things that terrorism stems from."
When people point to, say, Christianity in Africa with the idea of like "So you think Islam is the only one that does x...? GOTCHA" it's missing the point.
If someone said "Look at all the suffering cancer causes and the people it kills" you wouldn't come in with some snark like "So heart attacks don't kill people? The problem is disease in general, not cancer." It's not adding anything. Christianity has no trouble behaving in the secular west right now. That's not obvious for Islam. It leans towards theocracy. And sectarian violence. How many secular success stories are there in the Muslim world, Turkey?
On April 12 2015 17:25 devon06atX wrote:
Just like debating religion with bible thumpers, this isn't a debate. It's a shouting contest cuz no one is willing to look at things from a different angle and possibly change their stance even when confronted with wildly accurate arguments.
...Indeed...
On April 12 2015 16:15 devon06atX wrote:
I don't have any figures or papers to draw this conclusion from, it's just my opinion.
On April 12 2015 16:15 devon06atX wrote:
But, I definitely believe Christianity (even today) is a far bigger scourge on society than Islam. All things considered.
So you want to talk about "all things considered" instead of specifically terrorism which was the previous subject. And by "society" I hope you're not just talking about your locale?
On April 12 2015 16:15 devon06atX wrote:
Every time anything terror-related happens, and it even remotely involves islamic extremists - it gets prime time media attention. Therefore, we (as viewers) get a skewed perception of what's really taking place.
I have a question, why is it when journalists get executed in a western country, so many Muslims think it's about them and not the dead people? NotAllMuslims? JeNeSuisCharlie? The media didn't do that. Were all those people "extremists" or are they not real Muslims - or then why is the hashtag NotAllMuslims instead of NotReallyMuslims.
It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen
