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Why did you quit playing online?

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Smuft   Canada. Nov 12 2014 08:10. Posts 633

byrnesam asked an interesting question in the neilly blog thread here: http://www.liquidpoker.net/blog/viewblog.php?id=1118704


  On November 12 2014 03:52 byrnesam wrote:
Why do you think so many notable professionals (from LP and farther afield) are absent from the online games these days?



  On November 12 2014 03:52 byrnesam wrote:
For what its worth; I have come to the conclusion that poker is far from dead, but as far as online poker is concerned that ship has sailed.



Has it though?

6 years ago I had 100ish ex-starcraft players on my MSN that played poker "professionally", I think maybe ~5% of those guys are still playing.

Obviously games got harder, legislation etc. but there are still lots of games running up to 5/10 PLO/NL pretty much 24 hours a day with big winners in them. So why isn't it you?

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 Last edit: 12/11/2014 08:16

Romm3l   Germany. Nov 12 2014 08:42. Posts 285

everyone has a different 'reservation wage' below which they no longer think playing poker is the best use of their time. it's a function of how much money you have already, what other prospects you think you might have and your motivation to explore them.

i quit because
- the prospect of making $100k/yr (modest guess of what I can expect today) by doing something i no longer enjoy feels miserable and pointless when it's a lot less than i used to make
- my nw is well over 1mm from having made the most of the easier days of online poker, and additional money past a certain point feels pointless when happiness has a clearly nonlinear relation with money.
- i was afraid it would be too hard and too late to get into other things if i left it too long. it already doesn't feel nice starting from square one at age 30. i think leaving it until you're much older to quit poker closes a lot of potential doors in terms of what else you can do.

 Last edit: 12/11/2014 08:43

ToT)MidiaN(    United Kingdom. Nov 12 2014 08:53. Posts 5070

I haven't quit yet, but this is the first year in 10 years I've ever truly struggled. Even including rakeback I think I'm only up about $10k for the year (Admittedly only about 1hr/day average played and lots of run bad at the highest stakes I've played this year), when I've never done worse than ~+$30k in a year before. Games are getting ever tougher and programs like CREV and GTORB are only going to make it tougher for lazy players like I've always been. There are easier games than Stars zoom if you're willing to seat/site select and there's definitely still money to be made if you put the effort in and use all the tools available, but for me I think it's getting very close to the point where I need to move on as I just don't have the work ethic of a lot of other players or the focus to play long hours in order to generate tons of rakeback. Problem is, where do you go when you're 30 years old, have 4 months work experience and no qualifications with only a modest bankroll behind you?

One day good. One day bad. And some days, even hope 

Romm3l   Germany. Nov 12 2014 08:57. Posts 285

i also feel i quit 1-2 years after I "should" have, but when you get into the game young and everything else you know about the world outside the game seems like it's much more work, effort and bullshit for much less money, and you're still in the habit of measuring value in money terms, it becomes really easy to fall into status quo bias and think by default that playing poker is the very best and only possible lifestyle for you no matter what.

for years people on forums would say things like "if you're good enough to make a living at poker you're good enough to make a better living doing something else" and I wouldn't believe it because poker was really easy, it was all I knew, and the money was fantastic. but as your profitability in the games slowly declines over time you have to eventually wonder whether this still is the best thing you can possibly be doing. that point will come sooner for some than others.

what byrnesam should be saying is "that ship has sailed for me", or for many" (referring to the many absent 'notable professionals').



edit: this guy's thread on 2p2 is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/30/...sive-feeling-wasting-my-life-1481486/

 Last edit: 12/11/2014 13:58

whamm!   Albania. Nov 12 2014 09:02. Posts 11625

I quit because I only played for money and hated the game. Wanted to be part of a community that liked starcraft because I've always thought anyone who "got" what starcraft really was would be a person i would get along with because we had the same wavelength. Once the money started to dry up and I was getting neck pains (due to stress), I just saved up my last BR and bought time till I had something else to do, took a year and it got really scary I had nothing to show for. Good thing I got lucky and kinda solved a ton of financial problems.

Cliffs:
I hate poker, love sc and its people (circa 2000 BW era)
Poker gave me so much (all material useless shit) but ate my soul and I don't think the ill psycho effects of playing 24 tables will ever be the same again


lostaccount   Canada. Nov 12 2014 10:49. Posts 5724

i quit online cause games are super hard, i make 500$ playing live and probably breakeven playing online. games are super dry online. rake is too high too i paid 500k in rake over my life time playing poker,

Bye LP, peace in peace out peace with love 

locoo   Peru. Nov 12 2014 10:59. Posts 4561

Cool thread.

I think Romm3l nailed it. I should have left either last year or this one, and I know it's no excuse but it's just so much harder to quit with a family. It scares me to stop playing poker and be a failure in something else and then unable to make decent money. Or realize I didn't really like it that much and come back later and rusty. I've dabbled in the real world with some real estate and other ventures, and if you aren't lucky it can be a pain in the ass and just not worth it. Maybe I've just been unlucky or maybe it's because of the country I live in but people suck pretty hard so I always come back to poker where it's just me. I still love the liberty that poker gives me. I can wake up, go to the gym, start my session at like 12am. I can not play/work whichever day I feel like, I can travel anytime I want.

So i keep playing learning CRev, seat scripts and all that shit. I can't complain because I make good money but I feel like I'm not growing as a person like I would want to. I don't think poker will die though. I'm not so sure about online, but it wouldn't surprise me if playing online would get easier and not tougher in upcoming years, especially if a new technology breakthrough helps like it did in the past.

My plan for now is to keep playing, make decent bank, invest more in real estate, live off rents and THEN when I care 0 about bills dwell deeper into technology or whatever career I'd like to, my father studied his 2nd career at age 40 so it's definetly possible and even necessary if it's something that you are passionate about.

bitte bitte bitte bitte bitte bitte 

locoo   Peru. Nov 12 2014 11:01. Posts 4561


  On November 12 2014 09:49 lostaccount wrote:
i quit online cause games are super hard, i make 500$ playing live and probably breakeven playing online. games are super dry online. rake is too high too i paid 500k in rake over my life time playing poker,



I agree that rake is the major handicap of any poker pro. If there was only a way have rakefree games or minimal rake online poker would boom again. My hope is that technology helps in this in the near future.

bitte bitte bitte bitte bitte bitte 

VanDerMeyde   Norway. Nov 12 2014 11:53. Posts 5108

I kinda quit because my family was so strongly against it. I showed my mother and father my 75.000$ Everest roll back in the days and they looked at me like i had robbed some bank or something. Was suprised they would be so strongly against it, but in Norway until recently they look at poker like it is the Wild West. For me its demotivating.

If taking it seriously and giving 100% effort into it today, I would play 50-50 live and online poker because live poker give you very easy money and a lot of confidence in your game. Online poker gives you a lot of volume and lot of development as a player - which again can be used to outplay basicly anyone you see at any live game until some high stakes level. Also most regs are +EV in most online games (just very small winrate) because its always run around some player, and as long as that is not you, you will win quite a bit online too. Problem is you get tilted and lose confidence when you run bad against regs (or if you are worse than them)

:DLast edit: 12/11/2014 11:57

ggplz   Sweden. Nov 12 2014 12:32. Posts 16784

I think there are a lot of reasons. Some people just change nickname or move sites. Others can't keep up with the evolution of the game and go bust or get tired/burned out. Some finish University and go into real work. Also, i think generally people think of poker in a temporary and short term way so it's often dropped when other things in life demand more of them. I think there's also a sort of pre/midlife crisis people have between like 24-30 where they feel the game has or is meant to have ran it's course for them and they see something else they want to or feel obligated to do.

Just a few things about PS: PS games are just bad to play due to the rake, seat scripting, multi tablers everywhere and the fish to reg ratio. PS don't care about the quality of the games and no advertising budget in the world will draw enough players to feed 90+% regs 12+ tabling the site. I feel AMAYA care even less than PS previously did but with their massive debt they are so limited in what they can actually do as well. The thing is that the AMAYA deal kinda sealed their fate and not because AMAYA are bad but because what currently sustains PS i.e. the mass volume fish chasing nit culture will slowly die off but until it does they won't change. Sorry but the advertisement budget or whatever else people say justifies their rake paid is just plain wrong.

When I play there I have to open 40+tables per session and start another 8-10 per session to find decent fish at low stakes. That's at low stakes, I mean, come the fuck on! Any reg with a brain will seek fish the same way b/c the rake will eat you up playing vs regs. That's NOT fun for players or the fish but that's how the rake structure makes people play. The structure of the cash games forces you to play non-competitively and that's just wrong.

What PS need to do to improve the games and make it better for players is to lower the rake at low/mid stakes to allow players to actually climb up stakes and allow weaker players to do slightly better. This will result in better midstakes games and more shot taking. You know, allow players to actually have a shot at becoming poker "stars"? They also need to cap the number of tables people can play to 4-6 and revamp their VIP system to be easier to climb (due to reduced volume) and to actually feel rewarding. That means the 10(?) fish 1 tabling your limit will be easier to play with too. The reason 12+ tabling became so popular was because there were enough fish on each table to justify it but now it's kind of evolved where the regs that couldn't multitable have mostly quit leaving mostly multi tabling regs. Since everyone is multi tabling, the fish are incredibly hard to find and play against and seat scripting grows in popularity every day, making it even harder. That means 1 person (not seat scripting) can search/compete on 12+ tables to find 1 fish whereas in days gone by it may have been only 5-15% of players were 12+tabling and the rest 1-6 with fish mostly 1-2 tabling in amazement. PS'll never make these kinds of changes in the near future though so your option is either crush HSNL or midstakes+ PLO, high stakes tourneys, go play eurosites or quit / do stuff IRL.

if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhANLast edit: 12/11/2014 12:42

Liquid`Drone   Norway. Nov 12 2014 12:47. Posts 3093

I never really started, but that was largely because I didn't see it as a sustainable way to live a happy life. Although I sometimes wish I had started like 3 years before I kinda started a little, back when it was really easy, so I could have won a lot of money and been mortgage free, I'm overall very happy with the choice not to go for it. Poker players have never really seemed happy to me (rather on the contrary- even the security guards I interact with seem happier), it's like volunteering to be manic depressive, or even worse, entering a state of constant numbness where you don't care whether you win or lose..

economic freedom seems nice enough, but being Norwegian, having a job and coming from a reasonably wealthy family means I kinda have that anyway.

lol POKER 

Romm3l   Germany. Nov 12 2014 12:57. Posts 285


  On November 12 2014 11:32 ggplz wrote:
I think there are a lot of reasons. Some people just change nickname or move sites. Others can't keep up with the evolution of the game and go bust or get tired/burned out. Some finish University and go into real work. Also, i think generally people think of poker in a temporary and short term way so it's often dropped when other things in life demand more of them. I think there's also a sort of pre/midlife crisis people have between like 24-30 where they feel the game has or is meant to have ran it's course for them and they see something else they want to or feel obligated to do.

Just a few things about PS: PS games are just bad to play due to the rake, seat scripting, multi tablers everywhere and the fish to reg ratio. PS don't care about the quality of the games and no advertising budget in the world will draw enough players to feed 90+% regs 12+ tabling the site. I feel AMAYA care even less than PS previously did but with their massive debt they are so limited in what they can actually do as well. The thing is that the AMAYA deal kinda sealed their fate and not because AMAYA are bad but because what currently sustains PS i.e. the mass volume fish chasing nit culture will slowly die off but until it does they won't change. Sorry but the advertisement budget or whatever else people say justifies their rake paid is just plain wrong.

When I play there I have to open 40+tables per session and start another 8-10 per session to find decent fish at low stakes. That's at low stakes, I mean, come the fuck on! Any reg with a brain will seek fish the same way b/c the rake will eat you up playing vs regs. That's NOT fun for players or the fish but that's how the rake structure makes people play. The structure of the cash games forces you to play non-competitively and that's just wrong.

What PS need to do to improve the games and make it better for players is to lower the rake at low/mid stakes to allow players to actually climb up stakes and allow weaker players to do slightly better. This will result in better midstakes games and more shot taking. You know, allow players to actually have a shot at becoming poker "stars"? They also need to cap the number of tables people can play to 4-6 and revamp their VIP system to be easier to climb (due to reduced volume) and to actually feel rewarding. That means the 10(?) fish 1 tabling your limit will be easier to play with too. The reason 12+ tabling became so popular was because there were enough fish on each table to justify it but now it's kind of evolved where the regs that couldn't multitable have mostly quit leaving mostly multi tabling regs. Since everyone is multi tabling, the fish are incredibly hard to find and play against and seat scripting grows in popularity every day, making it even harder. That means 1 person (not seat scripting) can search/compete on 12+ tables to find 1 fish whereas in days gone by it may have been only 5-15% of players were 12+tabling and the rest 1-6 with fish mostly 1-2 tabling in amazement. PS'll never make these kinds of changes in the near future though so your option is either crush HSNL or midstakes+ PLO, high stakes tourneys, go play eurosites or quit / do stuff IRL.


don't want to derail into another debate over stars rake.. replied here http://romm3l.liquidpoker.net/


Nazgul    Netherlands. Nov 12 2014 13:55. Posts 7080

The first few years when it was a completely new experience I had a ton of fun learning and moving up the stakes. After it became a job it was very hard for me to enjoy it. dealing with the swings became mentally exhausting, I didn't evolve as a player (never used huds among other things), and eventually saw opportunities in life I felt would be more enjoyable. Poker is fucking tough.

You almost twin-caracked his AK - JonnyCosmo 

jchysk   United States. Nov 12 2014 13:57. Posts 435

Your ceiling as a poker player is too low. Notable poker players make a large percentage of their income through endorsements and you still can expect higher 7 figures or low 8 figures (USD) as the very top of your income.

For as hard as I was working to analyze and optimize my game and continuously improve, there are many other paths where that same level of work will take a person much further. Also, on some level the idea that you're doing nothing productive for humanity wears on long term motivation.

w00t 

dnagardi   Hungary. Nov 12 2014 14:12. Posts 1776

cool thread

I quit becuase:
I didnt enjoy it anymore, games got tougher, mentally and socially fucked me up.

Im glad I played poker coz I could fund my uni studies and im even more glad I ended it.


donjuako   Benin. Nov 12 2014 14:14. Posts 211

I feel like I get at the end of the train.. I started playing 1000% committed and blackfriday happened, luckly I had score big on a MTT and started a pain clinic in fl as the business made lots of money and just couple months later fbi dea and irs started doing raids and my good friend and sponsor to get started got a 15 year sentence for some dude who ODed after he left one of his clinics, so I decided to walka way with the little money I made..now Im in colombia doing public contratcs and its the last year before elections again so 1 year to make money


Minion   Brasil. Nov 12 2014 14:36. Posts 2112

I hated the game for a long time (3-4 years) and still played cause i had no other source of income.
I don't know how, but i managed to be a small winner/breakeven reg after black friday for so long, without studying anything since 2008.
I was really lazy, only wanted to play videogames and hated playing poker.

Finally 2 months ago i got the wake up call. My bankroll reached it's lowest point since 2007, almost lost supernova status (unacceptable for a pro playing on ps) and i decided to work on my game. I'm happy to say i'm enjoying playing poker again. It's easier now then it was 2 years ago for me cause i understand things i had no idea before. Also my mental game got a lot better.

I'll put in 200+ hours in november and december and hopefully go back to midstakes by january.

 Last edit: 12/11/2014 14:37

ggplz   Sweden. Nov 12 2014 15:10. Posts 16784


  On November 12 2014 11:57 Romm3l wrote:
Show nested quote +


don't want to derail into another debate over stars rake.. replied here http://romm3l.liquidpoker.net/


Fine. Replied there.

if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN 

bigredhoss   Cook Islands. Nov 12 2014 16:51. Posts 8646

nice op, but should come with extension "and what are you doing now instead of poker?"

Truck-Crash Life 

NotSorry   United States. Nov 12 2014 16:52. Posts 2603

Game got stale, lost enjoyment and realized I could make enough money to live off of botting games like wow while I went out and did whatever I wanted, still dabbled around til black friday. Now I play local games from time to time just to kill a saturday night but that's about it.

We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. 

 
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