$2/5 Live annoying river spot,

I don't think this is misplayed, but I'd like to think I could get away from it somehow.

Game was $2/$5 7-ring at the time. Villain is fishy, but I dono how fishy. Only played a few hands against him, typical live too loose preflop too passive.

Hero $700
Villain 450$

UTG, UTG +1, fold, UTG + 2 call, Villain calls, I raise on button to to $30, only Villain calls.

Flop $70:



Villain checks, I check (so many people play dumb weak drawing hands out of position I didn't want to c-bet and build the pot when I had no idea what villain's range was)

Turn $70:



Villain checks, I check

River $70:



Villain leads out, for 65, I think for 15 seconds and raise to $165, Villain says "I've been running pretty bad today, I guess I'm allin" and shoves for an additional $260 more."

There's no possible way I can fold this right? When someone gives a speech like that do they always have the full-house?

How can someone be so bad to check a board that wet out of position with a ten twice grrrrrr

Might just flat river (not just being results oriented

All he can really call a raise with is Maybe KQ. Non boat 10s raise sooner. He could easily slow play. He goes full pot pretty polarized right there already.

If he shows q10 he can be a little wider with this line and in that case raising Is probably best but when he 3bets ai u should prob muck cause you are basically repping queens full and he still jams

your intention was to rr the fish and hope he calls because he is very unlikely to be b3b the river with a bluff.. so its a pretty easy fold and if your not confident with that read you should just call his river lead

River is a clear raise, now fold with your current reads. You say he's passive, which means he's unlikely to go full retard on this river with a bluff, J9/AJ or a naked T.

With that said, I think you could Cbet this flop or bet this turn(get value from draws, maybe fold an 8 or weaker PP).

Also, in my experience, when weaker players start chatting they typically have a good hand(although my live experience is small).

I bet that turn almost always, as played I fold the river.

On November 22 2013 12:10 HungarianGOD wrote: There's no possible way I can fold this right? When someone gives a speech like that do they always have the full-house?

yes

I see live fish time and time again overplay what they perceive to be nuts, which can be anything from a naked T to J9 here. We're not always beat even with the line he took (as well as the line we took)
Also people play really transparent and poorly live that you can cbet anywhere from 25-35 and either choose to check back turn or barrel a good turn (ie. anything higher than a jack or an 8)

I like betting turn a fair bit. Otherwise I'm with gawdawaful.

should ask him to take his bet back and chop.

On November 23 2013 13:16 gawdawaful wrote: I see live fish time and time again overplay what they perceive to be nuts, which can be anything from a naked T to J9 here. We're not always beat even with the line he took (as well as the line we took) Also people play really transparent and poorly live that you can cbet anywhere from 25-35 and either choose to check back turn or barrel a good turn (ie. anything higher than a jack or an 8)

This. While villain is 100% not bluffing, he could easily be overvaluing his non-boat hands.

Here's an extremely pessimistic range which basically removes all Tx combos. 2:1 to make a call and you're priced at almost 3:1

Board: Tc Ts 8s Kd Qh
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.673% 24.49% 09.18% 12 4.50 { AdJd }
Hand 1: 66.327% 57.14% 09.18% 28 4.50 { KK-QQ, TT, 88, AJs, KTs, QTs, J9s, T8s, AJo, KTo, QTo, J9o, T8o }

Without a concrete read, which you DONT have, I don't see you being right to fold here.

also, +1 on betting turn to continue on a lot of rivers, if you haven't cbet this flop.

results?

bet turn , fold river. With the speach he has a fullhouse here almost always , so fold

--- Nuked ---

if villain is fishy and passive just c bet flop, you want to fold out all his air type hands which he will have super often and just fold, no need to check and let him catch up.

based on my experience, honestly I'm raising river also and calling that shove, especially with the way you guys got to the river, you really don't look like you can have KK, QQ, 88, 10x at all the way you played this hand to even the most leisure player.

I think this an easy fold, but a hard one to do at the moment

I think you guys are overcomplicating this? I think we need evidence to assume he is capable of doing this kind of spazz shove above the simple explanation he has a nutted hand (i.e. we need extra evidence to bluff catch him, not extra evidence to fold our hand)

On December 02 2013 00:12 GoTuNk wrote: I think this an easy fold, but a hard one to do at the moment I think you guys are overcomplicating this? I think we need evidence to assume he is capable of doing this kind of spazz shove above the simple explanation he has a nutted hand (i.e. we need extra evidence to bluff catch him, not extra evidence to fold our hand)

Nuts 75% of the time

Bet turn because you can easily fire a bunch of rivers.

As played call down and take notes.

Raise river and fold to his reraise. He has a boat.

Tbh I bet the turn smallish for value.

Results: he had QT off-suite

Thanks for the comments everyone.
CosMo, would you still fold if he didn't give the speech?

Yes,

How often do you see someone bet / raise / reraise live?

He's gonna flat every straight to your raise, even trips,

And lol at your first comment of him checking twice his trips, it's the best freaking turn for him to check again,

On November 22 2013 12:36 HungarianGOD wrote: How can someone be so bad to check a board that wet out of position with a ten twice grrrrrr

makes no sense

lol this "fish" would have soul pwned me that day. I'd snap call and be like "he has JT or AT whaaaaaaaaa????????"

Actually since I've been really making an effort to think before I act, I wonder if I could have folded here. Only thing I would ever fold to would be a flopped boat. You're right, who checks trips twice on a wet board? Someone with 88 or even TT for that matter. I think once I break it down I can see "ok so he had the mortal nuts, hence he can check twice then ship river and give me a speech".

On December 17 2013 20:44 careface_ wrote: Yes, How often do you see someone bet / raise / reraise live? He's gonna flat every straight to your raise, even trips, And lol at your first comment of him checking twice his trips, it's the best freaking turn for him to check again,

My adjustments for live-play are poor, straight up. I still tend to play less exploitable (and thus also less exploitably), and mix in bluffs/calls against players where it probably makes no sense to do so, I must definitely admit to that. I just think "if I usually fold most the time when I river the nut straight on a paired board and fold to a 3bet on the river, that's very exploitable so I guess I should probably call", which I understand is a ridiculous line of thinking playing against 2/5 live players.

About you saying him checking his trips twice is 'good'... What the hell are you talking about? How is this a good turn for him to check trips out of position again? I would appreciate if you would talk me through your position, because I don't understand it at all.