Pokerstars Datamining

I just want to get some opinions from people on this. Usually people say "its against the TOS". But now that pokerstars itself is violating the USAs TOS, that would make me feel less immoral about it. People are also afraid of being caught and having their accounts frozen, etc. The only program that has been released to the public is very easily detectable so I would never use it. Well what if there were a way to do it that is undetectable? Does that sound like something anyone might be interested in?

which program do u mean (the public one)? idle miner?

HOW DO I HAX PT BECAUSE I R CHEAPSKATE???

close thread?

Pokerstars is not violating any US law. The UIGEA prohibits American players from transferring money directly from American financial institutions to offshore gambling sites. PokerStars is not engaging in any such activity.

close thread?

Why close it? Isn't it pretty interesting?

I think there are programs that do this for tables you observe but they're not really worth buying. If you really want to datamine the best thing to do would be to run 12 tables and just fold everything but aces or kings.

edit: The risk of getting caught makes this stupid. Be patient and your database will grow

There is no risk of getting caught. I think I know what I'm doing so just go on the assumption that you cannot/will not get caught. Also, whether or not stars is violating US law is kind of up to interpretation. Ask yourself this though. Would Lee Jones feel comfortable traveling to the US right now?

edit: as I said before I'm not referring to a program that currently is available to the public

Of course theres a risk of getting caught. Stars monitor for this type of prohibited program.

How is this thread interesting. Datamining is illegal and comparable to HAX in bw. Same reason why PokerEdge is forbidden.

Tyty.

I don't see how they allow programs such as pokertracker, but datamining is illegal.. rrrright. Without pokertracker datamining would be useless. It's pokertracker that gives people who use it an edge over people who don't.

Tyty? are you looking for a ban or what?

do it naz, don't make me make myself a mod and do it

(just kidding I wouldnt do that )

Pokertracker only traces hands you're involved in and it's information you'd have anyway! When you're datamining, you're not paying attention to the tables - hell you could even be at a whorehouse banging a hoe and those stats would keep coming without you ever being near to a table.

That is why it is illegal and that is why PokerEdge is illegal. They grant you information you wouldn't otherwise have while using PokerTracker just displays the info you have because you've played in those hands yourself.

Without PokerTracker, datamining would have other tools to display the information, but PokerTracker without datamining wouldn't be useless. Only the other way around. Kinda like buying microwave meals when you don't have a microwave, but you can use microwave even if you don't have the microwave meals. God that's a bad analogy.

And just because I point out that it's illegal for a reason, doesn't mean I should get banned unless this forum supports such acts in which case I probably wouldn't mind getting banned as I think the legimate way is how the game should be played. There have been quite a few "How should I do drugs and pass the drug tests?" and "How can I maximize my winnings by using illegimate programs?"- type of threads which haven't been closed while posting a "where to find maphacks?" to TL.net probably earns a ban. But if I need to nick a stereo or hire a hitman to take someone out, this forum will be the first place to ask.

Now don't get all mushy just because you hate me for some reason.

[edit] And what do you think "tyty" means? Ty is short of "Thank you". If that deserves a ban then, I've been overusing those words a lot.

Saying tyty when it's not warranted is fucked up arrogant o;

Me? Arrogant? Wtf?

muhweli by ur logic it is for example also illegal for a broodwar player to watch replays of his enemies in which they didnt play themselves? i.e. it is illegal to use any information that u didnt experience with your own senses? ur logic is strange then.

Maybe we just say that "IT'S SAID IN THE RULES" and leave it at that. Why would there have to be more reasons? And replays are more like saved hands or session shared by the player voluntarily.

PS allows use of PokerTracker and the software doesn't try to detect PT etc. Why do you have to be searching for the extra edge if it's forbidden. Just the fact that "PS software is looking for the datamining tools" should be a hint on whether they advocate it's use or not. These are the shades of gray, ultimately leading to hacking to someone's computer for seeing their cards straight through. It goes in steps and I think been on the "barely legal" side is better than stepping over that border - don't you?

It is a little bit arrogant because saying 'tyty' is just like thinking you've won the arguement hands down when this was posted for a discussion. I think your correct but i also think Nazgul just wanted to continue a discussion on datamining or see how the thread evolves. I'm also happy to listen and see what information i can pick up, not that i'd use it.

so do you think people in the US should not be playing poker online though? Same logic. If it weren't for this, I wouldn't even consider breaking their TOS. But they set a precedent by interpreting US law their own way and thats the only reason this topic is different than previous topics on this subject.

I agree with Joe that the equivalent of map hacking would be hacking the server to see other people's cards.

why would you need datamining in the first place? you should focus on getting better instead

It's not like you expend energy/time datamining that you could've otherwise used to get better

how the fuck you can play when you sleep...

On November 14 2006 07:26 Muhweli wrote: Me. Arrogant.

I think the pokerstars policy is fine. You can mine information but you had to actually be there (kinda like you have to be playing in a game to see what someone mucked)

8D

luv you anyways sami

On November 14 2006 05:33 Roald wrote: Usually people say "its against the TOS". But now that pokerstars itself is violating the USAs TOS, that would make me feel less immoral about it.

On November 14 2006 07:55 Roald wrote: so do you think people in the US should not be playing poker online though? Same logic. If it weren't for this, I wouldn't even consider breaking their TOS.

I claim major bs.

On November 14 2006 05:33 Roald wrote: People are also afraid of being caught and having their accounts frozen, etc. The only program that has been released to the public is very easily detectable so I would never use it. Well what if there were a way to do it that is undetectable? Does that sound like something anyone might be interested in?

And yeah this guy is obv trying to get people to buy his program and should be the one banned imho.

Liquipoker should not facilitate such transactions if it ever wants to be granted the almighty Lee Jones action figure.

"tyty"

PokerTracker is allowed because it analyses data that you already have access to.

Datamining is not allowed because it gets you data that you would otherwise not get access to.

I just want to get some opinions from people on this. Usually people say "its against the TOS". But now that pokerstars itself is violating the USAs TOS, that would make me feel less immoral about it.

Uhh...

There is no risk of getting caught

Well, try using one of the programs on the banned list, and see how you do. I mean, if you WANT to get in trouble.

I wish poker was be played without pokertracker, simply as the game it was meant to be. But since pokertracker is legal which allows you to know what is going on on your tables without actually looking at them, I really don't see much of a moral difference with datamining.

Pokertracker analysis statistics and hands for you that you otherwise would not have known yourself. Datamining supplies information that you otherwise would not have known yourself. It's not like without pokertracker any of you would have a clue how loose or tight 90% of the people on your tables are.

In my opinion both are wrong, but if pokertracker is allowed I don't see why morally you would suddenly have a problem with datamining. Both give you an advantage over your opponents, both are not the way poker was meant to be played. Soon I will start using pokertracker myself simply because it is allowed and everyone else is doing it. But the idea of using programs to artificially remember how people play is morally better than datamining? What if PS didn't supply you with hand histories at all and asked you to rely on your memory, making hand histories illegal? PS doesn't define what is and isn't morally correct. They define what is allowed and what is not. The discussion of whether you agree with this is very relevant. I'm simply stating that there is a thin line between PT and datamining for me. For PS the line is obviously much greater.

And regardless of your opinion, MUHWELI, this is a very interesting discussion.

On November 14 2006 09:31 MilZo wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2006 05:33 Roald wrote: Usually people say "its against the TOS". But now that pokerstars itself is violating the USAs TOS, that would make me feel less immoral about it.   On November 14 2006 07:55 Roald wrote: so do you think people in the US should not be playing poker online though? Same logic. If it weren't for this, I wouldn't even consider breaking their TOS. I claim major bs.

what an excellent argument you make

On November 14 2006 10:30 Roald wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2006 09:31 MilZo wrote:   On November 14 2006 05:33 Roald wrote: Usually people say "its against the TOS". But now that pokerstars itself is violating the USAs TOS, that would make me feel less immoral about it.   On November 14 2006 07:55 Roald wrote: so do you think people in the US should not be playing poker online though? Same logic. If it weren't for this, I wouldn't even consider breaking their TOS. I claim major bs. what an excellent argument you make

what an excellent hypocrit you make

Get lost MilZo. If you can't post without properly expressing yourself maybe you shouldn't be in this topic.

On November 14 2006 09:57 Sciolist wrote: PokerTracker is allowed because it analyses data that you already have access to. Datamining is not allowed because it gets you data that you would otherwise not get access to. Show nested quote + I just want to get some opinions from people on this. Usually people say "its against the TOS". But now that pokerstars itself is violating the USAs TOS, that would make me feel less immoral about it. Uhh...   There is no risk of getting caught Well, try using one of the programs on the banned list, and see how you do. I mean, if you WANT to get in trouble.

My point was completely not about using a program on the banned list. Anyways, I know I was trying to say if you could do this without any risk of getting caught, would you? As in, is it more of a moral concern or a concern with getting caught.

Also, you DO have access to hands that you're just watching. Would it be illegal for me to sit there and watch a table, then copy and paste the hand histories from the window that you make freely available? If so, why don't you hide the hand history window when I'm just watching if you're so against me having this data? Where do you draw the line? Having it automated? What if I get someone in the third world to do it for me for $1/hour, is that illegal?

In my opinion, pokerstars has chosen a very arbitrary place to draw a line and doesn't even really enforce it correctly.

Fully agree.

Pointing at the rules and saying "that's how it is!" is really easy.

i don't see how using pokertracker is wrong. anyone can manually make a database that keeps track of how certain people play certain hands based on data that you physically observe of them, or how much you are up or down for a session, pokertracker merely automates the process. there is nothing that pokertracker does that is impossible for a human to do, it just makes it easier (as computers and programs are meant to do). saying that it's illegal because you can't do it in live poker is retarded. it merely organizes information that was available to you in the first place.

On November 14 2006 10:27 Nazgul wrote: I wish poker was be played without pokertracker, simply as the game it was meant to be. But since pokertracker is legal which allows you to know what is going on on your tables without actually looking at them, I really don't see much of a moral difference with datamining.

The biggest problem i have with datamining is that if someone is using a database against me and i have never played them before i'm at a serious disadvantage. This is really the most important point i think. If you've played against a player and you run pokertracker your free to take statistics on their play just as they are free to take it on yours.

First of all, excusing your toughts on Pokerstars not blocking american players is pathetic, mainly because its totall bullshit and also you are not taking "revenge" on pokerstars but on other players.

We could have a discussion if PokerTracker should be allowed or not, but saying PokerTracke is as fucked up as data mining is ridiculous, one provides artificial memory, the other totally gives you information you wouldnt have otherwise, and its 100% wrong.

as i said earlier, we can discuss if PokerTracker is wrong or it isnt, but datamining IS wrong and it should be illegal.

A lot of players who currently play higher stakes (eg. Negraneau) used to keep a notebook which contains a database of all their old live sessions. Poker-tracker is just a computerized version of this (which is inevitable in my opinion). Would any of you critisize a guy who was sitting at your live table with a notebook writing stuff down after every orbit? I would not care very much, it's not very unethical, all this person wants to do is improve their game. Poker-tracker is just a more detailed version which enables you to clearly anylize every hand you've ever played and allow you to review anything you wish. I personally do not have a problem with any of this, I'm sure opinions will vary greatly

I do think it's unfair + unethical that some people have access to the software while others may be completley unaware of it. I think it should be one of those "show on show all" thing, where if the software is indeed acceptable, it should be presented to everyone so people can make a descion weather or not they want it.

On November 14 2006 11:23 Pokerintheface wrote: i don't see how using pokertracker is wrong. anyone can manually make a database that keeps track of how certain people play certain hands based on data that you physically observe of them, or how much you are up or down for a session, pokertracker merely automates the process. there is nothing that pokertracker does that is impossible for a human to do, it just makes it easier (as computers and programs are meant to do). saying that it's illegal because you can't do it in live poker is retarded. it merely organizes information that was available to you in the first place.

I don't see how anything you said doesn't go for datamining.

1) anyone can manually keep track of the hands that are being played on PS
2) if the things PT does is possible for humans (which it isn't btw it would take you years to analyze one day the way PT does), then I really don't see how datamining would not be possible for a human.

Why is it retarded to say that using a program to help you out in a game of poker should be illegal? I can actually see a lot going for this argument. On top of that none of your fishy opponents have any clue of its existence or how to use it because it is not mainstream. I don't blame you or anyone for using PT. I'll probably be using it myself in the future. When PS allows it, it is going to be at my disadvantage not to.

On November 14 2006 11:34 ggplz wrote: The biggest problem i have with datamining is that if someone is using a database against me and i have never played them before i'm at a serious disadvantage. This is really the most important point i think. If you've played against a player and you run pokertracker your free to take statistics on their play just as they are free to take it on yours.

Most people you play on your poker tables have no clue what poker tracker is and are at a serious disadvantage because of this. As long as PS allows PT but doesn't offer it themselves this situation will always exist.

not only that, but because of the existence of textual hand history, anybody who gives a shit can create algorithms to organize the information in hand histories the same way pokertracker does and gather statistics on players and keep track of their sessions. pokertracker is one such program released for people who don't know how to do it, but anybody who so wanted would be able to do so on his or her own and it's impossible to stop.

there is absolutely nothing even remotely wrong with pokertracker. (what do you mean when PS allows it, every single site allows and recognizes pokertracker..."

i also think that there is nothing wrong with datamining.

you can note that PS makes it impossible to manually copy hand histories that you observe without copy and pasting every single hand, whereas PT makes use of hand history files that are saved to your computer which would be impossible for PS to stop you from analyzing in the first place.

plenty of sites such as full tilt poker allow datamining and have no rule against it (it's even built into pokertracker). i don't see what's wrong with it.

and saying that "pokertracker gives an unfair advantage that people don't know about it get" is a stupid argument. the same could be applied to books or message forums or asking people for advice during a hand or using an odds calculator. pokertracker is available for anybody on the internet to purchase and utilize at their freedom.

On November 14 2006 11:37 TalentedTom wrote: I do think it's unfair + unethical that some people have access to the software while others may be completley unaware of it. I think it should be one of those "show on show all" thing, where if the software is indeed acceptable, it should be presented to everyone so people can make a descion weather or not they want it.

I disagree and agree with you. I think that its very bad to display openly the lengths people will go to so they can have an edge and encourage others to do the same. But i also agree its unethical for anyone to have an edge above being a better player.

On November 14 2006 11:39 Pokerintheface wrote: not only that, but because of the existence of textual hand history, anybody who gives a shit can create algorithms to organize the information in hand histories the same way pokertracker does and gather statistics on players and keep track of their sessions. pokertracker is one such program released for people who don't know how to do it, but anybody who so wanted would be able to do so on his or her own and it's impossible to stop. there is absolutely nothing even remotely wrong with pokertracker. (what do you mean when PS allows it, every single site allows and recognizes pokertracker..." i also think that there is nothing wrong with datamining.

Then what the hell are you argueing with me for? I said that I don't think the difference between datamining and pokertracker is substantial. I'm not telling you to take either side of it, just saying that I find it strange people are jumping on Roald when they are completely fine with using pokertracker. Those people should atleast back it up with some kind of argument.

Like Tom said a lot of the problem comes from people being unaware of pokertracker. If PS would offer it themselves in their software it is already completely different.

and saying that "pokertracker gives an unfair advantage that people don't know about it get" is a stupid argument. the same could be applied to books or message forums or asking people for advice during a hand or using an odds calculator. pokertracker is available for anybody on the internet to purchase and utilize at their freedom.

Ehhh just because it is out there doesn't mean it isn't an unfair advantage. Do you realize most people who play poker are not playing it seriously enough to go look online for tools that can help them out? Shouldn't everyone who logs on to PS deserve the same kind of opportunities without spending time finding additional programs? That's such a ridiculous argument. If you can find SC hacks online which are available for everyone does that mean it is simply okay because everyone can use them to their advantage?

nazgul read the rest of my post, i edited it

pokertracker does nothing to break or affect the rules of poker. pokertracker can do nothing that someone who was reading over a hand history text file cannot do. there is no magical trick to beating poker embedded in pokertracker. it is a tool like an odds calculator or a sklansky starting hands chart. is it unfair for you to use one of those since other people at the table who don't know what this is cannot use these? the argument breaks down.

an SC hack breaks the rules of starcraft. NOBODY without the starcraft hack can do the same thing the hacker does, as opposed to osmeone who uses pokertracker compared to someone who does not. the rules of poker are FAR from being broken by an analytical program like pokertracker. tell me exactly what pokertracker does that makes it so unacceptable and that gives people who use it such a huge advantage that cannot be overcome (keeping in mind obviously that players like you and rekrul don't even use pokertracker and are playing 25/50).

On November 14 2006 11:34 Baal wrote: First of all, excusing your toughts on Pokerstars not blocking american players is pathetic, mainly because its totall bullshit and also you are not taking "revenge" on pokerstars but on other players. We could have a discussion if PokerTracker should be allowed or not, but saying PokerTracke is as fucked up as data mining is ridiculous, one provides artificial memory, the other totally gives you information you wouldnt have otherwise, and its 100% wrong. as i said earlier, we can discuss if PokerTracker is wrong or it isnt, but datamining IS wrong and it should be illegal.

The excuse about the American players what I think he meant was; PS thinks that if you can avoid a law as long as you disagree with it, it is fine to do so. And thus as long as you are fine with avoiding PS rules on moral reasons it is a similar situation. Which definitely holds some truth. If you're non-dutch and you do not smoke weed because it isn't allowed I find this kind of weird. If you have some moral problem with weed and therefore you don't use it then it is something different.

Why is providing you with a memory you otherwise would never have so different from providing you with stats that you otherwise wouldn't have? Both are improving your play through means you would never ever be capable of without these programs.

I dont see why your comparing pokertracker (as a memory) to datamining (which is just observing with no interaction at all). Datamining gives you an advantage in that you know how to react to a certain player in a situation where they're not sure how to act against you.

Pokertracker just logs data you could log yourself but the most important thing is that the opponent has the equal opportunity to log data against you.

ps did not avoid the US law because it did not agree with it. it's because it did not believe that online poker fell under the jurisdiction of this bill, because poker is a skill game and fundamentally different from gambling.

well, that's what they claimed anyway.

On November 14 2006 11:49 Pokerintheface wrote: pokertracker does nothing to break or affect the rules of poker. pokertracker can do nothing that someone who was reading over a hand history text file cannot do. there is no magical trick to beating poker embedded in pokertracker. it is a tool like an odds calculator or a sklansky starting hands chart. is it unfair for you to use one of those since other people at the table who don't know what this is cannot use these? the argument breaks down. an SC hack breaks the rules of starcraft. NOBODY without the starcraft hack can do the same thing the hacker does, as opposed to osmeone who uses pokertracker compared to someone who does not. the rules of poker are FAR from being broken by an analytical program like pokertracker. tell me exactly what pokertracker does that makes it so unacceptable and that gives people who use it such a huge advantage that cannot be overcome (keeping in mind obviously that players like you and rekrul don't even use pokertracker and are playing 25/50).

Pokertracker doesn't break any rules because online websites have created their own set of regulations after the game had been played live for decades. Many people are not familar with statistics programs because they have been introduced to poker a long time ago. If PS doesn't make people aware of the program then it only makes sense there will be a lot of players who don't know about it.

Stop saying without pokertracker people would be able to extract these kind of statistics because they're not. Not even people with the sickest photographic memory and best math wizards in the world can come close to analysing statistics the way PT does.

"tell me exactly what pokertracker does that makes it so unacceptable and that gives people who use it such a huge advantage that cannot be overcome (keeping in mind obviously that players like you and rekrul don't even use pokertracker and are playing 25/50)."

I don't say it is unacceptable.. I say I would find poker more fun if noone used it. That's really all there's to it. I'm fine with people using PT and I will do so myself in the future most likely. The edge can be overcome by playing better than your opponent, and just as well you can overcome datamining. However between two equal players the one using additional programs will always come out on top. Also, on 25/50 it is a lot less important to use these kind of programs compared to 8-12 tabling the lower limits.

nobody read my post :<

I like tom's anatomy, if someone playing on the table is writing every action on a notebook well its his problem and im ok with it.

If im playing on some table and someone hires 10 mexicans (zing!), to observe the table (not playing) and taking notes of every action i would be very pissed about it.

thank you for clarifying what I meant naz I wish my ability to express myself were better but that was right on.

Alot of people are saying fair vs unfair. Data mining being illegal makes it so that a resourceful programmer could find a way to hypothetically make a word macro that grabs hand histories and saves them as files. Now only 1 person can do it and there isn't a damn thing pokerstars can do about it (other than putting all office programs on the banned list). I should be a dick and release the macro but since I like pokerstars, I won't. But since they're being unreasonable with their rules, I won't send it to them either.

On November 14 2006 11:56 Pokerintheface wrote: ps did not avoid the US law because it did not agree with it. it's because it did not believe that online poker fell under the jurisdiction of this bill, because poker is a skill game and fundamentally different from gambling. well, that's what they claimed anyway.

That's what I meant with avoiding the law. They searched and tried to find a hole in it because they disagree with the law. I think the law is complete bullshit as well and wouldn't mind anyone trying to get around it.

On November 14 2006 11:58 Baal wrote: I like tom's anatomy,

I'm sorry but

LOL

hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! why in the fuck did i type that rofl, i meant analogy

god i blushed.

By the way just to make it clear, when I say PT I am always talking about PT+HUD.

i agree with naz that PT+HUD is somewhat wrong (i use it anyway tee hee), but datamining is wrong in another level.

it looks to me like you two justify it by other "wrongs"...

naz says if pt is allowed, then datamining should.

roland says if pokerstars disregards the law then datamining should be allowed.


If rape is legalized are you going to say murder should be legal too?

naz says if pt is allowed, then datamining should.

I'm saying if there's a moral difference it is actually rather small. And definitely no reason to attack Roald for this topic if you are actually using PT(/HUD!!!) yourself. Like I said whenever I have said PT in this topic I am talking about the use of HUDs and having those statistics on the tables. Hope it didn't create any misunderstanding but that's how I have PT in my head. The thing is that PS also legally allows HUDs so the discussion doesn't change one bit.

If rape is legalized are you going to say murder should be legal too?

If a rapist doesn't get punished I sure as hell am going to murder some. So yeah.

roland says if pokerstars disregards the law then datamining should be allowed.

That's not what he said or meant to say. If PokerStars gives itself the liberty to morally disagree with a law and continues to look for holes to exploit, it is a similar situation to disagreeing with their TOS and looking for holes to exploit that.

shouldnt you fight legislation or rapist themselves rather than just being more evil than the rapists who started it all?

I use PT as a post session analysis tool. I honestly think it is an unfair advantage but I use it because I am curious about certain things, am a numbers kind of guy, and it helps organize things really well for me. I however do not use PAHud. I somewhat arbitrarily drew the line between using PT and using PAHud because I dont like that the HUD program is used as sort of a during session booster.

The analogy i would make is to sports.

I view using PT as working out in the offseason. Everyone has the opportunity to look over stats they have on themself and improve themselves after a session so they can play better during a session.

I look at using PAHud as taking some sort of amphetamine during a game in order to boost your energy to a level you normally cant get it to.


As for datamining, from a logical standpoint I agree with nazgul and if stars allows PT/hud it should allow datamining programs.

I view using PT as working out in the offseason. Everyone has the opportunity to look over stats they have on themself and improve themselves after a session so they can play better during a session. I look at using PAHud as taking some sort of amphetamine during a game in order to boost your energy to a level you normally cant get it to.

That's quite nice actually.

On November 14 2006 12:13 Baal wrote: i agree with naz that PT+HUD is somewhat wrong (i use it anyway tee hee), but datamining is wrong in another level. it looks to me like you two justify it by other "wrongs"... naz says if pt is allowed, then datamining should. roland says if pokerstars disregards the law then datamining should be allowed. If rape is legalized are you going to say murder should be legal too?

I'm also saying that they can't catch people that datamine, and if you can't enforce something, that isn't fair to people who blindly follow rules. You can't really expect people to follow rules if you can't catch them doing it.

Anyways, there are mining tools out there that are easy to find that are not on stars' banned list so they obviously don't care that much.

not really the analogy is vague as hell why has toms analogy been totally ignored?

PT = guy while playing writing down everything that happens on the table

Datamining = a stranger, not playing, looking over your shoulder writing in his notebook what happens at the table.

On November 14 2006 12:26 Baal wrote: not really the analogy is vague as hell why has toms analogy been totally ignored? PT = guy while playing writing down everything that happens on the table Datamining = a stranger, not playing, looking over your shoulder writing in his notebook what happens at the table.

Because his analogy is wrong. This is more like it:

Datamining = standing behind someone elses table writing down statistics before you sit down so you will play better once you get a seat

many datamining softwares you dont have to observe the table, but its a huge database (sharkscope)...

so it isnt really you standing behind...

And even so can you honestly say you wouldnt mind of some guy not playing taking notes about your game? wtf.

pokertracker doesn't exactly use pen and paper either baal

On November 14 2006 12:45 Nazgul wrote: pokertracker doesn't exactly use pen and paper either baal

im not talking about their capability to take notes, but who makes it, anyway u didnt say if you honestly wouldnt mind some guy not playing writing how you play.. wouldnt you be mad about it?

It's allowed to watch a table, see which one you want to join, which one is the fishiest etc. It's not my thing but if others want to do it it's not against the rules and I'm not going to upset myself over it.

The comparison was to a live situation, I gave you one. Not whether or not I would agree with it

On November 14 2006 10:27 Nazgul wrote: I wish poker was be played without pokertracker, simply as the game it was meant to be. But since pokertracker is legal which allows you to know what is going on on your tables without actually looking at them, I really don't see much of a moral difference with datamining. Pokertracker analysis statistics and hands for you that you otherwise would not have known yourself. Datamining supplies information that you otherwise would not have known yourself. It's not like without pokertracker any of you would have a clue how loose or tight 90% of the people on your tables are. In my opinion both are wrong, but if pokertracker is allowed I don't see why morally you would suddenly have a problem with datamining. Both give you an advantage over your opponents, both are not the way poker was meant to be played. Soon I will start using pokertracker myself simply because it is allowed and everyone else is doing it. But the idea of using programs to artificially remember how people play is morally better than datamining? What if PS didn't supply you with hand histories at all and asked you to rely on your memory, making hand histories illegal? PS doesn't define what is and isn't morally correct. They define what is allowed and what is not. The discussion of whether you agree with this is very relevant. I'm simply stating that there is a thin line between PT and datamining for me. For PS the line is obviously much greater. And regardless of your opinion, MUHWELI, this is a very interesting discussion.

i agree with this for the most part. although i'd say the difference between having a database of all hands you've played and all hands that have been played at your game and stake is still quite considerable in terms of the difference of how much more you can benefit with 100x as many tracked hands when you leave datamining running in your sleep. nonetheless, as big as this difference is, it is still not that big compared to the difference between using pokertracker legally and not using pokertracker at all, hence i agree with you for the most part but i'd note that there definitely is also a very real difference between only your hands and a huge database with a significant % of the total played hands on stars.

i too would like it if pokertracker/hud programs didnt exist but because they do, i definitely want to be using them so im not playing at a disadvantage against other users (which is like most regulars). Similarly, i'd love it if huge huge databases were not out there for sale for every site that datamined like every hand played above a minimum stake level, but because they are, i'd definitely be interested in paying money to get a hold of some of them.

On November 14 2006 11:23 Pokerintheface wrote: i don't see how using pokertracker is wrong. anyone can manually make a database that keeps track of how certain people play certain hands based on data that you physically observe of them, or how much you are up or down for a session, pokertracker merely automates the process. there is nothing that pokertracker does that is impossible for a human to do, it just makes it easier (as computers and programs are meant to do). saying that it's illegal because you can't do it in live poker is retarded. it merely organizes information that was available to you in the first place.

i wouldnt be able to walk all over stars 3/6 12tabling without PT/pokerace hud, id just not have a clue about any players and i'd have to cut down to 4tabling so i can make my own observations about peoples basic play style.

ok so basically the essence of your argument is "i think poker is more fun without pokertracker so therefore pokertracker is immoral," and "people would not be able to get this information without pokertracker."

in response to the former nobody cares, in response to the second, yes they can. the hand histories of every hand you've ever played on any site you want to play on internet poker is saved directly to your hard drive and you can peer over them and do whatever the fuck you want to with the wealth of information that is recorded there. whether you organize it yourself or pokertracker organizes it for you is completely your prerogative as the owner of those hand history files that were given to you by the poker site you play on. to say "nobody can take a pen and paper and write down all the shit pokertracker tells you" is a ridiculous argument. if you knew how you could organize the information yourself with the information that is saved to your hard drive (i.e., that is never lost, so trying to say that you could not pick everything up that pokertracker does with just your eyes is stupid because the information is permanently stored) and come to the same conclusions that pokertracker does. whether or not somebody does that is irrelevant (and untrue): people obviously did. some people decided to release such programs like pokertracker or pokeroffice or whatever the hell is out there. it happens, it exists, and people do it, and now they have it easier with programs like pokertracker.

there is no distinction, so don't try to arbitrarily define one and call it an argument.

and, yes, pokertracker does nothing to breach the rules of actual poker. the game, poker. if you think otherwise you're wrong.

edit: ket psh you can't walk over 3/6 anyway

and i have 12-tabled with PT + PAHud plenty of times. half of this session i had PAHud closed cuz i was talking to someone and it was lagging it to hell, so that's definitely a moot point.

On November 14 2006 12:32 Nazgul wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2006 12:26 Baal wrote: not really the analogy is vague as hell why has toms analogy been totally ignored? PT = guy while playing writing down everything that happens on the table Datamining = a stranger, not playing, looking over your shoulder writing in his notebook what happens at the table. Because his analogy is wrong. This is more like it: Datamining = standing behind someone elses table writing down statistics before you sit down so you will play better once you get a seat

Actually datamining = more like hiring someone else to be behind the table writing down statistics of the tables.

On November 14 2006 13:16 Muhweli wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2006 12:32 Nazgul wrote:   On November 14 2006 12:26 Baal wrote: not really the analogy is vague as hell why has toms analogy been totally ignored? PT = guy while playing writing down everything that happens on the table Datamining = a stranger, not playing, looking over your shoulder writing in his notebook what happens at the table. Because his analogy is wrong. This is more like it: Datamining = standing behind someone elses table writing down statistics before you sit down so you will play better once you get a seat Actually datamining = more like hiring someone else to be behind the table writing down statistics of the tables.

exactly what i said.

We are right but naz is just mad cuz he lost a lot of money for not using it jk

Aye, normally using PT would be more like observing and writing down the statistics. Datamining is to have someone else dew it. Just dew it.

does anyone realize pokerstars is in coasta rica and therefore doesnt give a shit whether or not they're following a US law?

anyway I think this is a moral issue, but I say don't violate a site's rules. it's only an unfair advantage if it isn't allowed, but some one is doing it anyway.

some one data mining on stars = cheater
some one data mining on fulltilt = playing by the rules

On November 14 2006 13:16 Muhweli wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2006 12:32 Nazgul wrote:   On November 14 2006 12:26 Baal wrote: not really the analogy is vague as hell why has toms analogy been totally ignored? PT = guy while playing writing down everything that happens on the table Datamining = a stranger, not playing, looking over your shoulder writing in his notebook what happens at the table. Because his analogy is wrong. This is more like it: Datamining = standing behind someone elses table writing down statistics before you sit down so you will play better once you get a seat Actually datamining = more like hiring someone else to be behind the table writing down statistics of the tables.

Pokertracker is paying someone to analyse your hands for you :/

Muhweli it seems you are in this discussion only to justify your use of Pokertracker. I never said you are wrong for using it, don't worry!

I almost completely agree with BigBalls. Almost, because I think the analogy of HUDs to amphetamines or other artificial body boosters is flawed, because HUDs are not detrimental or risky for your health. I'd see it more as having the right shoes, the best cycle, whatever, against a competition composed of amateurs with bargain stuff. It is a technology based booster of your performance that doesn't harm you. In an ideal competition environment, it would be regulated so that nobody gets penalized for his lousy equipment and everybody has the same chances so the real abilities are measured, but it's not the case here, so...

On November 14 2006 12:26 Baal wrote: not really the analogy is vague as hell why has toms analogy been totally ignored? PT = guy while playing writing down everything that happens on the table Datamining = a stranger, not playing, looking over your shoulder writing in his notebook what happens at the table.

I would add to that analogy :
HUD = a stranger, not playing, behind your opponent and holding a panel with information on his game.

rofl

how about making hud a corked bat?

when i started reading this i tried my best to remian unbiased.
so heres what i think.

using PT clearly gives an advantage to the player who do use it because of the information that it records. but the fact that you played the hand with player x, means that player x has the ability to record/remember/make note of the hand or hands. the fact that they dont use an element provided to them to record exactly what happened is unfortunate, whether they play for fun or seriously.

now the use of a dataminer gives player y that much more of an advantage because that player could have my entire hand history and I've never played a hand against him.

the only difference is that ive played against player x and i havent played with player y. what it boils down to is your opinion on this fact and imo, this is way too much of an advantage for one player to have over another.

also there are a lot of bad analogies in this thread

speaking of datamining, does anyone know about how the NotThisTime vs Hallinggol 25/50 headsup marathon ended up overall?

On November 14 2006 16:00 BigBalls wrote: how about making hud a corked bat?

lol stop with the stupid analogies relating PT with cheating, its not even a situation remotely alike.

hate to be the fish who doesnt know what everyone's talkin about but what is the HUD part of PT??

i have PT but i have no clue what HUD stands for or what it is...also at the beginnin of this thread ROALD mentioned something about TOS? whats that as well??

im gonna say there will be no end to this discussion we will end up agreeing to disagree...or disagreeing to disagreein..

anyways, every game evolves. its the nature of life. everything changes...
hockey went from wood sticks to these light metal sticks that can make your shot amazing...bats got better in baseball, poker went online and all of a sudden you could play more than 1 table at a time....football added technology to the game and suddenly the quarterback could talk through his helmut to a coach who talks to a guy upstairs who is watchin the defense (actually im not sure about this last one but it seemed like that in the movie any given sunday, which is a friggin awesome movie, but i digress)

probably the only game that hasnt changed is soccer...lolz...

the point is, evolution is inevitable...ultimately poker is still poker. regardless of how much data you have on a player, its really still poker. what i did 3 months ago, is not representative of my play today. Even if they record me for months, and knows my exact plays, eventually a good player catchs on and switches it up...really poker is still poker...

dont you guys think it would be odd if the same guy kept raisin you when you had a hand like AT? Eventually your gonna call the AT preflop hit an ace and confuse him by doing something you dont normally do...

in fact i'll venture a guess that often the way you take a big stack out is doing something unusual...NOT by playing your standard game...

I think poker, all the databases or everything, doesnt help you against any particular player. But it definitely helps you find the holes in your own game...(ie i know where i lose most of my money..overplayin certain hands or certain positions..)

If you know exactly my type of play, i could still be a very strong player......meanin even if you know my type of play and my type of play is tight, your goin up against cards that have you beat > 60% of the time...your only chance of beatin me is when YOU have a hand...And you can represent it if you want, but the ace will hit the flop more than enough times for me to make money and when i have an overpair the flop will be low cards more than enough times to make me money...

That means the only time you have an advantage over me is when you sense weakness...which will probably be when im weak...but if you make a play at me every time im weak, im gonna catch on and realize AT is probably good some of these times your messin with me...In fact Id probably figure it out within the 2nd or 3rd time because you havin AK and me having AT 3 times in a row is a little sketchy. You might convince me the first time(always give benefit of the doubt), i'll assess whether your stupid enough to make a move at me another time when i folded the previous time (ie meanin your bettin knowin you did this already to me, you probably want to make it look like a bluff and get a call),,,and then the 3rd time, i'll know something really messed up is going on and i might just have to call...

When I find otu your playin ME and my weakness, then i'll switch up my game against that certain player...

ANYWAYS theoretically i would, i might not notice...but eventually everyone notices...

give me the database on NEGREANU'S entire life and I would still not be able to beat him because i think hes good enough to switch it up at a given moment...

Tere Here, a HUD ( gametime+ or pokerace hud ) is a program that shows statistics on your opponents at the table while playing. These programs use PT databases and they can be configured to show any kind of statistic you can think of. eg. how often someone check/raises turn, goes to showdown, folds his cbet... anything.
HUD screenshots

Nazgul not really. But PT just rephrases the information for your viewing pleasure. ;D I guess it's borderline moral, but it's legal. I guess it's something like Weed <-> Alcohol kind of relationship. Weed is illegal while Alcohol is legal and both are drugs to an extent and alcohol might even be more harmful. It's just about where the line is drawn, but like you said - if I'm here to justify using PT, I think it's a lot easier than justifying use of datamining.

Weed is legal and alcohol is worse than weed so there! Analogy thwarted !

On November 15 2006 08:46 Twisted wrote: Weed is legal and alcohol is worse than weed so there! Analogy thwarted !

yes maybe in that paradise you live in it is legal. But those of us stuck in the People's Republic of America would say that analogy is pretty valid.

If you want datamined hands on Stars you are best off using something like HandHQ.com to get hands. You don't mine yourself so little way to get caught - if they even look out for this datamining.

On November 13 2008 12:19 Mr. Flibble wrote: If you want datamined hands on Stars you are best off using something like HandHQ.com to get hands. You don't mine yourself so little way to get caught - if they even look out for this datamining.

one of the better bumps ive seen imo

EPIC BUMP

LOLLLL I just read all 5 pages on this thinking it was today.

hhsmithey and telescope ftw. close stupid thread.

hehe it seems november makes people wonder about datamining

On November 13 2008 13:18 whamm! wrote: hhsmithey and telescope ftw. close stupid thread.

have you used these?

me too

On November 13 2008 12:19 Mr. Flibble wrote: If you want datamined hands on Stars you are best off using something like HandHQ.com to get hands. You don't mine yourself so little way to get caught - if they even look out for this datamining.

hmm, is this an advertisement in disguise #_#

good observation there Subaru O_o