Pokerstars Datamining - Page 4

On November 14 2006 12:26 Baal wrote: not really the analogy is vague as hell why has toms analogy been totally ignored? PT = guy while playing writing down everything that happens on the table Datamining = a stranger, not playing, looking over your shoulder writing in his notebook what happens at the table.

Because his analogy is wrong. This is more like it:

Datamining = standing behind someone elses table writing down statistics before you sit down so you will play better once you get a seat

many datamining softwares you dont have to observe the table, but its a huge database (sharkscope)...

so it isnt really you standing behind...

And even so can you honestly say you wouldnt mind of some guy not playing taking notes about your game? wtf.

pokertracker doesn't exactly use pen and paper either baal

On November 14 2006 12:45 Nazgul wrote: pokertracker doesn't exactly use pen and paper either baal

im not talking about their capability to take notes, but who makes it, anyway u didnt say if you honestly wouldnt mind some guy not playing writing how you play.. wouldnt you be mad about it?

It's allowed to watch a table, see which one you want to join, which one is the fishiest etc. It's not my thing but if others want to do it it's not against the rules and I'm not going to upset myself over it.

The comparison was to a live situation, I gave you one. Not whether or not I would agree with it

On November 14 2006 10:27 Nazgul wrote: I wish poker was be played without pokertracker, simply as the game it was meant to be. But since pokertracker is legal which allows you to know what is going on on your tables without actually looking at them, I really don't see much of a moral difference with datamining. Pokertracker analysis statistics and hands for you that you otherwise would not have known yourself. Datamining supplies information that you otherwise would not have known yourself. It's not like without pokertracker any of you would have a clue how loose or tight 90% of the people on your tables are. In my opinion both are wrong, but if pokertracker is allowed I don't see why morally you would suddenly have a problem with datamining. Both give you an advantage over your opponents, both are not the way poker was meant to be played. Soon I will start using pokertracker myself simply because it is allowed and everyone else is doing it. But the idea of using programs to artificially remember how people play is morally better than datamining? What if PS didn't supply you with hand histories at all and asked you to rely on your memory, making hand histories illegal? PS doesn't define what is and isn't morally correct. They define what is allowed and what is not. The discussion of whether you agree with this is very relevant. I'm simply stating that there is a thin line between PT and datamining for me. For PS the line is obviously much greater. And regardless of your opinion, MUHWELI, this is a very interesting discussion.

i agree with this for the most part. although i'd say the difference between having a database of all hands you've played and all hands that have been played at your game and stake is still quite considerable in terms of the difference of how much more you can benefit with 100x as many tracked hands when you leave datamining running in your sleep. nonetheless, as big as this difference is, it is still not that big compared to the difference between using pokertracker legally and not using pokertracker at all, hence i agree with you for the most part but i'd note that there definitely is also a very real difference between only your hands and a huge database with a significant % of the total played hands on stars.

i too would like it if pokertracker/hud programs didnt exist but because they do, i definitely want to be using them so im not playing at a disadvantage against other users (which is like most regulars). Similarly, i'd love it if huge huge databases were not out there for sale for every site that datamined like every hand played above a minimum stake level, but because they are, i'd definitely be interested in paying money to get a hold of some of them.

On November 14 2006 11:23 Pokerintheface wrote: i don't see how using pokertracker is wrong. anyone can manually make a database that keeps track of how certain people play certain hands based on data that you physically observe of them, or how much you are up or down for a session, pokertracker merely automates the process. there is nothing that pokertracker does that is impossible for a human to do, it just makes it easier (as computers and programs are meant to do). saying that it's illegal because you can't do it in live poker is retarded. it merely organizes information that was available to you in the first place.

i wouldnt be able to walk all over stars 3/6 12tabling without PT/pokerace hud, id just not have a clue about any players and i'd have to cut down to 4tabling so i can make my own observations about peoples basic play style.

ok so basically the essence of your argument is "i think poker is more fun without pokertracker so therefore pokertracker is immoral," and "people would not be able to get this information without pokertracker."

in response to the former nobody cares, in response to the second, yes they can. the hand histories of every hand you've ever played on any site you want to play on internet poker is saved directly to your hard drive and you can peer over them and do whatever the fuck you want to with the wealth of information that is recorded there. whether you organize it yourself or pokertracker organizes it for you is completely your prerogative as the owner of those hand history files that were given to you by the poker site you play on. to say "nobody can take a pen and paper and write down all the shit pokertracker tells you" is a ridiculous argument. if you knew how you could organize the information yourself with the information that is saved to your hard drive (i.e., that is never lost, so trying to say that you could not pick everything up that pokertracker does with just your eyes is stupid because the information is permanently stored) and come to the same conclusions that pokertracker does. whether or not somebody does that is irrelevant (and untrue): people obviously did. some people decided to release such programs like pokertracker or pokeroffice or whatever the hell is out there. it happens, it exists, and people do it, and now they have it easier with programs like pokertracker.

there is no distinction, so don't try to arbitrarily define one and call it an argument.

and, yes, pokertracker does nothing to breach the rules of actual poker. the game, poker. if you think otherwise you're wrong.

edit: ket psh you can't walk over 3/6 anyway

and i have 12-tabled with PT + PAHud plenty of times. half of this session i had PAHud closed cuz i was talking to someone and it was lagging it to hell, so that's definitely a moot point.

On November 14 2006 12:32 Nazgul wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2006 12:26 Baal wrote: not really the analogy is vague as hell why has toms analogy been totally ignored? PT = guy while playing writing down everything that happens on the table Datamining = a stranger, not playing, looking over your shoulder writing in his notebook what happens at the table. Because his analogy is wrong. This is more like it: Datamining = standing behind someone elses table writing down statistics before you sit down so you will play better once you get a seat

Actually datamining = more like hiring someone else to be behind the table writing down statistics of the tables.

On November 14 2006 13:16 Muhweli wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2006 12:32 Nazgul wrote:   On November 14 2006 12:26 Baal wrote: not really the analogy is vague as hell why has toms analogy been totally ignored? PT = guy while playing writing down everything that happens on the table Datamining = a stranger, not playing, looking over your shoulder writing in his notebook what happens at the table. Because his analogy is wrong. This is more like it: Datamining = standing behind someone elses table writing down statistics before you sit down so you will play better once you get a seat Actually datamining = more like hiring someone else to be behind the table writing down statistics of the tables.

exactly what i said.

We are right but naz is just mad cuz he lost a lot of money for not using it jk

Aye, normally using PT would be more like observing and writing down the statistics. Datamining is to have someone else dew it. Just dew it.

does anyone realize pokerstars is in coasta rica and therefore doesnt give a shit whether or not they're following a US law?

anyway I think this is a moral issue, but I say don't violate a site's rules. it's only an unfair advantage if it isn't allowed, but some one is doing it anyway.

some one data mining on stars = cheater
some one data mining on fulltilt = playing by the rules

On November 14 2006 13:16 Muhweli wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2006 12:32 Nazgul wrote:   On November 14 2006 12:26 Baal wrote: not really the analogy is vague as hell why has toms analogy been totally ignored? PT = guy while playing writing down everything that happens on the table Datamining = a stranger, not playing, looking over your shoulder writing in his notebook what happens at the table. Because his analogy is wrong. This is more like it: Datamining = standing behind someone elses table writing down statistics before you sit down so you will play better once you get a seat Actually datamining = more like hiring someone else to be behind the table writing down statistics of the tables.

Pokertracker is paying someone to analyse your hands for you :/

Muhweli it seems you are in this discussion only to justify your use of Pokertracker. I never said you are wrong for using it, don't worry!

I almost completely agree with BigBalls. Almost, because I think the analogy of HUDs to amphetamines or other artificial body boosters is flawed, because HUDs are not detrimental or risky for your health. I'd see it more as having the right shoes, the best cycle, whatever, against a competition composed of amateurs with bargain stuff. It is a technology based booster of your performance that doesn't harm you. In an ideal competition environment, it would be regulated so that nobody gets penalized for his lousy equipment and everybody has the same chances so the real abilities are measured, but it's not the case here, so...

On November 14 2006 12:26 Baal wrote: not really the analogy is vague as hell why has toms analogy been totally ignored? PT = guy while playing writing down everything that happens on the table Datamining = a stranger, not playing, looking over your shoulder writing in his notebook what happens at the table.

I would add to that analogy :
HUD = a stranger, not playing, behind your opponent and holding a panel with information on his game.

rofl

how about making hud a corked bat?

when i started reading this i tried my best to remian unbiased.
so heres what i think.

using PT clearly gives an advantage to the player who do use it because of the information that it records. but the fact that you played the hand with player x, means that player x has the ability to record/remember/make note of the hand or hands. the fact that they dont use an element provided to them to record exactly what happened is unfortunate, whether they play for fun or seriously.

now the use of a dataminer gives player y that much more of an advantage because that player could have my entire hand history and I've never played a hand against him.

the only difference is that ive played against player x and i havent played with player y. what it boils down to is your opinion on this fact and imo, this is way too much of an advantage for one player to have over another.

also there are a lot of bad analogies in this thread

speaking of datamining, does anyone know about how the NotThisTime vs Hallinggol 25/50 headsup marathon ended up overall?

On November 14 2006 16:00 BigBalls wrote: how about making hud a corked bat?

lol stop with the stupid analogies relating PT with cheating, its not even a situation remotely alike.

hate to be the fish who doesnt know what everyone's talkin about but what is the HUD part of PT??

i have PT but i have no clue what HUD stands for or what it is...also at the beginnin of this thread ROALD mentioned something about TOS? whats that as well??

im gonna say there will be no end to this discussion we will end up agreeing to disagree...or disagreeing to disagreein..

anyways, every game evolves. its the nature of life. everything changes...
hockey went from wood sticks to these light metal sticks that can make your shot amazing...bats got better in baseball, poker went online and all of a sudden you could play more than 1 table at a time....football added technology to the game and suddenly the quarterback could talk through his helmut to a coach who talks to a guy upstairs who is watchin the defense (actually im not sure about this last one but it seemed like that in the movie any given sunday, which is a friggin awesome movie, but i digress)

probably the only game that hasnt changed is soccer...lolz...

the point is, evolution is inevitable...ultimately poker is still poker. regardless of how much data you have on a player, its really still poker. what i did 3 months ago, is not representative of my play today. Even if they record me for months, and knows my exact plays, eventually a good player catchs on and switches it up...really poker is still poker...

dont you guys think it would be odd if the same guy kept raisin you when you had a hand like AT? Eventually your gonna call the AT preflop hit an ace and confuse him by doing something you dont normally do...

in fact i'll venture a guess that often the way you take a big stack out is doing something unusual...NOT by playing your standard game...

I think poker, all the databases or everything, doesnt help you against any particular player. But it definitely helps you find the holes in your own game...(ie i know where i lose most of my money..overplayin certain hands or certain positions..)

If you know exactly my type of play, i could still be a very strong player......meanin even if you know my type of play and my type of play is tight, your goin up against cards that have you beat > 60% of the time...your only chance of beatin me is when YOU have a hand...And you can represent it if you want, but the ace will hit the flop more than enough times for me to make money and when i have an overpair the flop will be low cards more than enough times to make me money...

That means the only time you have an advantage over me is when you sense weakness...which will probably be when im weak...but if you make a play at me every time im weak, im gonna catch on and realize AT is probably good some of these times your messin with me...In fact Id probably figure it out within the 2nd or 3rd time because you havin AK and me having AT 3 times in a row is a little sketchy. You might convince me the first time(always give benefit of the doubt), i'll assess whether your stupid enough to make a move at me another time when i folded the previous time (ie meanin your bettin knowin you did this already to me, you probably want to make it look like a bluff and get a call),,,and then the 3rd time, i'll know something really messed up is going on and i might just have to call...

When I find otu your playin ME and my weakness, then i'll switch up my game against that certain player...

ANYWAYS theoretically i would, i might not notice...but eventually everyone notices...

give me the database on NEGREANU'S entire life and I would still not be able to beat him because i think hes good enough to switch it up at a given moment...