Pokerstars Datamining - Page 3

On November 14 2006 11:39 Pokerintheface wrote: not only that, but because of the existence of textual hand history, anybody who gives a shit can create algorithms to organize the information in hand histories the same way pokertracker does and gather statistics on players and keep track of their sessions. pokertracker is one such program released for people who don't know how to do it, but anybody who so wanted would be able to do so on his or her own and it's impossible to stop. there is absolutely nothing even remotely wrong with pokertracker. (what do you mean when PS allows it, every single site allows and recognizes pokertracker..." i also think that there is nothing wrong with datamining.

Then what the hell are you argueing with me for? I said that I don't think the difference between datamining and pokertracker is substantial. I'm not telling you to take either side of it, just saying that I find it strange people are jumping on Roald when they are completely fine with using pokertracker. Those people should atleast back it up with some kind of argument.

Like Tom said a lot of the problem comes from people being unaware of pokertracker. If PS would offer it themselves in their software it is already completely different.

and saying that "pokertracker gives an unfair advantage that people don't know about it get" is a stupid argument. the same could be applied to books or message forums or asking people for advice during a hand or using an odds calculator. pokertracker is available for anybody on the internet to purchase and utilize at their freedom.

Ehhh just because it is out there doesn't mean it isn't an unfair advantage. Do you realize most people who play poker are not playing it seriously enough to go look online for tools that can help them out? Shouldn't everyone who logs on to PS deserve the same kind of opportunities without spending time finding additional programs? That's such a ridiculous argument. If you can find SC hacks online which are available for everyone does that mean it is simply okay because everyone can use them to their advantage?

nazgul read the rest of my post, i edited it

pokertracker does nothing to break or affect the rules of poker. pokertracker can do nothing that someone who was reading over a hand history text file cannot do. there is no magical trick to beating poker embedded in pokertracker. it is a tool like an odds calculator or a sklansky starting hands chart. is it unfair for you to use one of those since other people at the table who don't know what this is cannot use these? the argument breaks down.

an SC hack breaks the rules of starcraft. NOBODY without the starcraft hack can do the same thing the hacker does, as opposed to osmeone who uses pokertracker compared to someone who does not. the rules of poker are FAR from being broken by an analytical program like pokertracker. tell me exactly what pokertracker does that makes it so unacceptable and that gives people who use it such a huge advantage that cannot be overcome (keeping in mind obviously that players like you and rekrul don't even use pokertracker and are playing 25/50).

On November 14 2006 11:34 Baal wrote: First of all, excusing your toughts on Pokerstars not blocking american players is pathetic, mainly because its totall bullshit and also you are not taking "revenge" on pokerstars but on other players. We could have a discussion if PokerTracker should be allowed or not, but saying PokerTracke is as fucked up as data mining is ridiculous, one provides artificial memory, the other totally gives you information you wouldnt have otherwise, and its 100% wrong. as i said earlier, we can discuss if PokerTracker is wrong or it isnt, but datamining IS wrong and it should be illegal.

The excuse about the American players what I think he meant was; PS thinks that if you can avoid a law as long as you disagree with it, it is fine to do so. And thus as long as you are fine with avoiding PS rules on moral reasons it is a similar situation. Which definitely holds some truth. If you're non-dutch and you do not smoke weed because it isn't allowed I find this kind of weird. If you have some moral problem with weed and therefore you don't use it then it is something different.

Why is providing you with a memory you otherwise would never have so different from providing you with stats that you otherwise wouldn't have? Both are improving your play through means you would never ever be capable of without these programs.

I dont see why your comparing pokertracker (as a memory) to datamining (which is just observing with no interaction at all). Datamining gives you an advantage in that you know how to react to a certain player in a situation where they're not sure how to act against you.

Pokertracker just logs data you could log yourself but the most important thing is that the opponent has the equal opportunity to log data against you.

ps did not avoid the US law because it did not agree with it. it's because it did not believe that online poker fell under the jurisdiction of this bill, because poker is a skill game and fundamentally different from gambling.

well, that's what they claimed anyway.

On November 14 2006 11:49 Pokerintheface wrote: pokertracker does nothing to break or affect the rules of poker. pokertracker can do nothing that someone who was reading over a hand history text file cannot do. there is no magical trick to beating poker embedded in pokertracker. it is a tool like an odds calculator or a sklansky starting hands chart. is it unfair for you to use one of those since other people at the table who don't know what this is cannot use these? the argument breaks down. an SC hack breaks the rules of starcraft. NOBODY without the starcraft hack can do the same thing the hacker does, as opposed to osmeone who uses pokertracker compared to someone who does not. the rules of poker are FAR from being broken by an analytical program like pokertracker. tell me exactly what pokertracker does that makes it so unacceptable and that gives people who use it such a huge advantage that cannot be overcome (keeping in mind obviously that players like you and rekrul don't even use pokertracker and are playing 25/50).

Pokertracker doesn't break any rules because online websites have created their own set of regulations after the game had been played live for decades. Many people are not familar with statistics programs because they have been introduced to poker a long time ago. If PS doesn't make people aware of the program then it only makes sense there will be a lot of players who don't know about it.

Stop saying without pokertracker people would be able to extract these kind of statistics because they're not. Not even people with the sickest photographic memory and best math wizards in the world can come close to analysing statistics the way PT does.

"tell me exactly what pokertracker does that makes it so unacceptable and that gives people who use it such a huge advantage that cannot be overcome (keeping in mind obviously that players like you and rekrul don't even use pokertracker and are playing 25/50)."

I don't say it is unacceptable.. I say I would find poker more fun if noone used it. That's really all there's to it. I'm fine with people using PT and I will do so myself in the future most likely. The edge can be overcome by playing better than your opponent, and just as well you can overcome datamining. However between two equal players the one using additional programs will always come out on top. Also, on 25/50 it is a lot less important to use these kind of programs compared to 8-12 tabling the lower limits.

nobody read my post :<

I like tom's anatomy, if someone playing on the table is writing every action on a notebook well its his problem and im ok with it.

If im playing on some table and someone hires 10 mexicans (zing!), to observe the table (not playing) and taking notes of every action i would be very pissed about it.

thank you for clarifying what I meant naz I wish my ability to express myself were better but that was right on.

Alot of people are saying fair vs unfair. Data mining being illegal makes it so that a resourceful programmer could find a way to hypothetically make a word macro that grabs hand histories and saves them as files. Now only 1 person can do it and there isn't a damn thing pokerstars can do about it (other than putting all office programs on the banned list). I should be a dick and release the macro but since I like pokerstars, I won't. But since they're being unreasonable with their rules, I won't send it to them either.

On November 14 2006 11:56 Pokerintheface wrote: ps did not avoid the US law because it did not agree with it. it's because it did not believe that online poker fell under the jurisdiction of this bill, because poker is a skill game and fundamentally different from gambling. well, that's what they claimed anyway.

That's what I meant with avoiding the law. They searched and tried to find a hole in it because they disagree with the law. I think the law is complete bullshit as well and wouldn't mind anyone trying to get around it.

On November 14 2006 11:58 Baal wrote: I like tom's anatomy,

I'm sorry but

LOL

hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! why in the fuck did i type that rofl, i meant analogy

god i blushed.

By the way just to make it clear, when I say PT I am always talking about PT+HUD.

i agree with naz that PT+HUD is somewhat wrong (i use it anyway tee hee), but datamining is wrong in another level.

it looks to me like you two justify it by other "wrongs"...

naz says if pt is allowed, then datamining should.

roland says if pokerstars disregards the law then datamining should be allowed.


If rape is legalized are you going to say murder should be legal too?

naz says if pt is allowed, then datamining should.

I'm saying if there's a moral difference it is actually rather small. And definitely no reason to attack Roald for this topic if you are actually using PT(/HUD!!!) yourself. Like I said whenever I have said PT in this topic I am talking about the use of HUDs and having those statistics on the tables. Hope it didn't create any misunderstanding but that's how I have PT in my head. The thing is that PS also legally allows HUDs so the discussion doesn't change one bit.

If rape is legalized are you going to say murder should be legal too?

If a rapist doesn't get punished I sure as hell am going to murder some. So yeah.

roland says if pokerstars disregards the law then datamining should be allowed.

That's not what he said or meant to say. If PokerStars gives itself the liberty to morally disagree with a law and continues to look for holes to exploit, it is a similar situation to disagreeing with their TOS and looking for holes to exploit that.

shouldnt you fight legislation or rapist themselves rather than just being more evil than the rapists who started it all?

I use PT as a post session analysis tool. I honestly think it is an unfair advantage but I use it because I am curious about certain things, am a numbers kind of guy, and it helps organize things really well for me. I however do not use PAHud. I somewhat arbitrarily drew the line between using PT and using PAHud because I dont like that the HUD program is used as sort of a during session booster.

The analogy i would make is to sports.

I view using PT as working out in the offseason. Everyone has the opportunity to look over stats they have on themself and improve themselves after a session so they can play better during a session.

I look at using PAHud as taking some sort of amphetamine during a game in order to boost your energy to a level you normally cant get it to.


As for datamining, from a logical standpoint I agree with nazgul and if stars allows PT/hud it should allow datamining programs.

I view using PT as working out in the offseason. Everyone has the opportunity to look over stats they have on themself and improve themselves after a session so they can play better during a session. I look at using PAHud as taking some sort of amphetamine during a game in order to boost your energy to a level you normally cant get it to.

That's quite nice actually.

On November 14 2006 12:13 Baal wrote: i agree with naz that PT+HUD is somewhat wrong (i use it anyway tee hee), but datamining is wrong in another level. it looks to me like you two justify it by other "wrongs"... naz says if pt is allowed, then datamining should. roland says if pokerstars disregards the law then datamining should be allowed. If rape is legalized are you going to say murder should be legal too?

I'm also saying that they can't catch people that datamine, and if you can't enforce something, that isn't fair to people who blindly follow rules. You can't really expect people to follow rules if you can't catch them doing it.

Anyways, there are mining tools out there that are easy to find that are not on stars' banned list so they obviously don't care that much.

not really the analogy is vague as hell why has toms analogy been totally ignored?

PT = guy while playing writing down everything that happens on the table

Datamining = a stranger, not playing, looking over your shoulder writing in his notebook what happens at the table.