Pokerstars Datamining - Page 2

how the fuck you can play when you sleep...

On November 14 2006 07:26 Muhweli wrote: Me. Arrogant.

I think the pokerstars policy is fine. You can mine information but you had to actually be there (kinda like you have to be playing in a game to see what someone mucked)

8D

luv you anyways sami

On November 14 2006 05:33 Roald wrote: Usually people say "its against the TOS". But now that pokerstars itself is violating the USAs TOS, that would make me feel less immoral about it.

On November 14 2006 07:55 Roald wrote: so do you think people in the US should not be playing poker online though? Same logic. If it weren't for this, I wouldn't even consider breaking their TOS.

I claim major bs.

On November 14 2006 05:33 Roald wrote: People are also afraid of being caught and having their accounts frozen, etc. The only program that has been released to the public is very easily detectable so I would never use it. Well what if there were a way to do it that is undetectable? Does that sound like something anyone might be interested in?

And yeah this guy is obv trying to get people to buy his program and should be the one banned imho.

Liquipoker should not facilitate such transactions if it ever wants to be granted the almighty Lee Jones action figure.

"tyty"

PokerTracker is allowed because it analyses data that you already have access to.

Datamining is not allowed because it gets you data that you would otherwise not get access to.

I just want to get some opinions from people on this. Usually people say "its against the TOS". But now that pokerstars itself is violating the USAs TOS, that would make me feel less immoral about it.

Uhh...

There is no risk of getting caught

Well, try using one of the programs on the banned list, and see how you do. I mean, if you WANT to get in trouble.

I wish poker was be played without pokertracker, simply as the game it was meant to be. But since pokertracker is legal which allows you to know what is going on on your tables without actually looking at them, I really don't see much of a moral difference with datamining.

Pokertracker analysis statistics and hands for you that you otherwise would not have known yourself. Datamining supplies information that you otherwise would not have known yourself. It's not like without pokertracker any of you would have a clue how loose or tight 90% of the people on your tables are.

In my opinion both are wrong, but if pokertracker is allowed I don't see why morally you would suddenly have a problem with datamining. Both give you an advantage over your opponents, both are not the way poker was meant to be played. Soon I will start using pokertracker myself simply because it is allowed and everyone else is doing it. But the idea of using programs to artificially remember how people play is morally better than datamining? What if PS didn't supply you with hand histories at all and asked you to rely on your memory, making hand histories illegal? PS doesn't define what is and isn't morally correct. They define what is allowed and what is not. The discussion of whether you agree with this is very relevant. I'm simply stating that there is a thin line between PT and datamining for me. For PS the line is obviously much greater.

And regardless of your opinion, MUHWELI, this is a very interesting discussion.

On November 14 2006 09:31 MilZo wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2006 05:33 Roald wrote: Usually people say "its against the TOS". But now that pokerstars itself is violating the USAs TOS, that would make me feel less immoral about it.   On November 14 2006 07:55 Roald wrote: so do you think people in the US should not be playing poker online though? Same logic. If it weren't for this, I wouldn't even consider breaking their TOS. I claim major bs.

what an excellent argument you make

On November 14 2006 10:30 Roald wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2006 09:31 MilZo wrote:   On November 14 2006 05:33 Roald wrote: Usually people say "its against the TOS". But now that pokerstars itself is violating the USAs TOS, that would make me feel less immoral about it.   On November 14 2006 07:55 Roald wrote: so do you think people in the US should not be playing poker online though? Same logic. If it weren't for this, I wouldn't even consider breaking their TOS. I claim major bs. what an excellent argument you make

what an excellent hypocrit you make

Get lost MilZo. If you can't post without properly expressing yourself maybe you shouldn't be in this topic.

On November 14 2006 09:57 Sciolist wrote: PokerTracker is allowed because it analyses data that you already have access to. Datamining is not allowed because it gets you data that you would otherwise not get access to. Show nested quote + I just want to get some opinions from people on this. Usually people say "its against the TOS". But now that pokerstars itself is violating the USAs TOS, that would make me feel less immoral about it. Uhh...   There is no risk of getting caught Well, try using one of the programs on the banned list, and see how you do. I mean, if you WANT to get in trouble.

My point was completely not about using a program on the banned list. Anyways, I know I was trying to say if you could do this without any risk of getting caught, would you? As in, is it more of a moral concern or a concern with getting caught.

Also, you DO have access to hands that you're just watching. Would it be illegal for me to sit there and watch a table, then copy and paste the hand histories from the window that you make freely available? If so, why don't you hide the hand history window when I'm just watching if you're so against me having this data? Where do you draw the line? Having it automated? What if I get someone in the third world to do it for me for $1/hour, is that illegal?

In my opinion, pokerstars has chosen a very arbitrary place to draw a line and doesn't even really enforce it correctly.

Fully agree.

Pointing at the rules and saying "that's how it is!" is really easy.

i don't see how using pokertracker is wrong. anyone can manually make a database that keeps track of how certain people play certain hands based on data that you physically observe of them, or how much you are up or down for a session, pokertracker merely automates the process. there is nothing that pokertracker does that is impossible for a human to do, it just makes it easier (as computers and programs are meant to do). saying that it's illegal because you can't do it in live poker is retarded. it merely organizes information that was available to you in the first place.

On November 14 2006 10:27 Nazgul wrote: I wish poker was be played without pokertracker, simply as the game it was meant to be. But since pokertracker is legal which allows you to know what is going on on your tables without actually looking at them, I really don't see much of a moral difference with datamining.

The biggest problem i have with datamining is that if someone is using a database against me and i have never played them before i'm at a serious disadvantage. This is really the most important point i think. If you've played against a player and you run pokertracker your free to take statistics on their play just as they are free to take it on yours.

First of all, excusing your toughts on Pokerstars not blocking american players is pathetic, mainly because its totall bullshit and also you are not taking "revenge" on pokerstars but on other players.

We could have a discussion if PokerTracker should be allowed or not, but saying PokerTracke is as fucked up as data mining is ridiculous, one provides artificial memory, the other totally gives you information you wouldnt have otherwise, and its 100% wrong.

as i said earlier, we can discuss if PokerTracker is wrong or it isnt, but datamining IS wrong and it should be illegal.

A lot of players who currently play higher stakes (eg. Negraneau) used to keep a notebook which contains a database of all their old live sessions. Poker-tracker is just a computerized version of this (which is inevitable in my opinion). Would any of you critisize a guy who was sitting at your live table with a notebook writing stuff down after every orbit? I would not care very much, it's not very unethical, all this person wants to do is improve their game. Poker-tracker is just a more detailed version which enables you to clearly anylize every hand you've ever played and allow you to review anything you wish. I personally do not have a problem with any of this, I'm sure opinions will vary greatly

I do think it's unfair + unethical that some people have access to the software while others may be completley unaware of it. I think it should be one of those "show on show all" thing, where if the software is indeed acceptable, it should be presented to everyone so people can make a descion weather or not they want it.

On November 14 2006 11:23 Pokerintheface wrote: i don't see how using pokertracker is wrong. anyone can manually make a database that keeps track of how certain people play certain hands based on data that you physically observe of them, or how much you are up or down for a session, pokertracker merely automates the process. there is nothing that pokertracker does that is impossible for a human to do, it just makes it easier (as computers and programs are meant to do). saying that it's illegal because you can't do it in live poker is retarded. it merely organizes information that was available to you in the first place.

I don't see how anything you said doesn't go for datamining.

1) anyone can manually keep track of the hands that are being played on PS
2) if the things PT does is possible for humans (which it isn't btw it would take you years to analyze one day the way PT does), then I really don't see how datamining would not be possible for a human.

Why is it retarded to say that using a program to help you out in a game of poker should be illegal? I can actually see a lot going for this argument. On top of that none of your fishy opponents have any clue of its existence or how to use it because it is not mainstream. I don't blame you or anyone for using PT. I'll probably be using it myself in the future. When PS allows it, it is going to be at my disadvantage not to.

On November 14 2006 11:34 ggplz wrote: The biggest problem i have with datamining is that if someone is using a database against me and i have never played them before i'm at a serious disadvantage. This is really the most important point i think. If you've played against a player and you run pokertracker your free to take statistics on their play just as they are free to take it on yours.

Most people you play on your poker tables have no clue what poker tracker is and are at a serious disadvantage because of this. As long as PS allows PT but doesn't offer it themselves this situation will always exist.

not only that, but because of the existence of textual hand history, anybody who gives a shit can create algorithms to organize the information in hand histories the same way pokertracker does and gather statistics on players and keep track of their sessions. pokertracker is one such program released for people who don't know how to do it, but anybody who so wanted would be able to do so on his or her own and it's impossible to stop.

there is absolutely nothing even remotely wrong with pokertracker. (what do you mean when PS allows it, every single site allows and recognizes pokertracker..."

i also think that there is nothing wrong with datamining.

you can note that PS makes it impossible to manually copy hand histories that you observe without copy and pasting every single hand, whereas PT makes use of hand history files that are saved to your computer which would be impossible for PS to stop you from analyzing in the first place.

plenty of sites such as full tilt poker allow datamining and have no rule against it (it's even built into pokertracker). i don't see what's wrong with it.

and saying that "pokertracker gives an unfair advantage that people don't know about it get" is a stupid argument. the same could be applied to books or message forums or asking people for advice during a hand or using an odds calculator. pokertracker is available for anybody on the internet to purchase and utilize at their freedom.

On November 14 2006 11:37 TalentedTom wrote: I do think it's unfair + unethical that some people have access to the software while others may be completley unaware of it. I think it should be one of those "show on show all" thing, where if the software is indeed acceptable, it should be presented to everyone so people can make a descion weather or not they want it.

I disagree and agree with you. I think that its very bad to display openly the lengths people will go to so they can have an edge and encourage others to do the same. But i also agree its unethical for anyone to have an edge above being a better player.