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200nl HU river call/fld

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SemPeR   Canada. Aug 28 2012 04:26. Posts 2288

vill is unknown fish. <10 hands, has not been limping.
nothing has gone down that allowed me to assume he is aggro or passive.

he c/f'd to a cb on 2 semidry flops.
i cbet them for pot and got folds.

Then this hand;

I felt this was a relatively simple decision but wanted to make sure.

What do you make of his turn range (or, how randomly air heavy do you think it is?)

edit: again sorry about the weaktight.
i can't seem to get it to work from raw HEM.
if anyone wants to help me figure this out, I'd be down

hand 2 (since I played this today and I might as well throw this in here instead of making a new thread; this is vs diff villain):

+ Show Spoiler +

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 Last edit: 29/08/2012 03:54

YoMeR   United States. Sep 17 2012 06:19. Posts 12369

Based on your previous history I think this is an extremely standard turn shove: he's calling all 2 pairs pairs + sd/FD + pair etc etc. there's an insane amount of hands we are beating. Also I'd expect villain to be raising a lot of his sets/2 pairs on the flop as it's a pretty wet board and he seems to be the type to play all of his hands...shitty or big, fast.

eZ Life. 

Rapoza   Brasil. Sep 17 2012 06:32. Posts 1612

--- Nuked ---

Pouncer Style 4 the win 

MARSHALL28   United States. Sep 29 2012 19:44. Posts 1897

your sizing is too large on flop and turn.

it's really hard to know if he's c/r the turn w/ a straight and now betting small on the river because he's afraid you have a boat, or if he's c/r the turn w/ a worse 2pr that is afraid a bigger bet won't get paid off by worse.

if you had bet smaller on the flop this wouldn't be as big of an issue since he'd need to be raising your flop bet more frequently with nutted hands.

just call river.

MARSHALL28   United States. Sep 29 2012 19:50. Posts 1897

w/ your kq and qt i really don't like raising the flop in either spot.

w/ the kq you can't rep any semi bluffs so it's a spot you will have a Q a set or nothing... it's better to make your range look weak by calling and letting him barrel off.

w/ the qt the flop raise is a little bit better since you can potentially have a lot of combos of spades, but i still don't like it at all, your range will just play better as a call on the flop. personally, i rarely raise c-bets in 3bet pots, maybe like 10-15% of the time only. also, you just showed the guy you have top pair in your range when you raise a c-bet, it'd make me want to bluff raise more here and call w/ my decent hands like this one.

DaEm0niCuS   United States. Sep 30 2012 16:19. Posts 3290

If I was going to raise it would be on the turn, as played you could still raise the river, but his bet looks like he either missed a draw or is fairly strong. You miss value vs worse two pair but that's not a good river to raise for value unless you know your opponent well.

 Last edit: 30/09/2012 16:21

DaEm0niCuS   United States. Sep 30 2012 16:24. Posts 3290

1st hand in spoiler is a pretty clear call down imo unless he bets too weak on turn.

DaEm0niCuS   United States. Sep 30 2012 16:30. Posts 3290

QT is def a call on the flop having previously raised small with the QK, as played id actually consider folding given he should have a decent idea of what you have. Unless he's over aggressive/spewy. He did price you in fairly well on the turn to call the river.

DaEm0niCuS   United States. Sep 30 2012 16:38. Posts 3290

as marshall stated raising cbet's in 3 bet pot's isn't the greatest play. Imo it should be done when your opponent is 3 betting a very large range and either gives up to raise's oop too often or thinks your minraise is BS and spews off accordingly. It's alright to mix it in now and then vs tighter 3 bet range's but I don't think these are the right hands to do it with vs most players.

For instance in the QT if you just call it may very well look like a float and induce a turn bet/possibly a river shove. If he checks the turn and you bet half pot or so you still don't look very strong at all and he may call down with 88 TT JJ etc. Where as raising the flop look's much stronger and he's more likely to give up the bad spot with his weak hands/many of his bluffs.

SemPeR   Canada. Sep 30 2012 21:19. Posts 2288

i havent checked the forums in awhile, but kinda cool this eventually got some responses.

this is kinda new...I disagree with like 70% of the replies.
I don't think I could justify it without a huge tldr post about how I view ranges differently hu, and how I view fish tendencies, so I'll just write down what I think are the right plays now. Hit me up via PM if you'd like to get the long version.

H1: The AJ.

1.I think this is an easy river fold vs random fish with little history.
It would take a conversation with someone I considered much better than me (Marshall counts) to convince me otherwise.

2. Flop sizing. I disagree strongly it is too big and feel Marshall and I should probably take a moment and discuss it. Very quick reasoning being I feel he will play much more of his range in a way that is indifferent to my betsize, contrary to what Marshall is saying (if we bet small he'll raise more nutted hands).

H2: I liked my raise and still like it. Again, might be a productive discussion with someone who disagrees.

H3: I actually like calling here more, but it has more to do with history and board texture.
But if I had to play the hand again, I would probably still have raised.

I'm thinking river may be a fold but that could be a tweener-type low frequency spot I can't break my head over (because of the unique history). That said, I still feel the flop raise was good.

As LPers tend to be on the argumentative side, and for good reason, I'll note that all of this is only my opinon, etc etc, I'm not calling anyone out. Open to proven wrong. This is how I think these hands should be played to make the most monies, and so on..


EvilSky    Czech Republic. Oct 01 2012 07:17. Posts 8915

I think I see a pattern here of blowing up the pot and then looking to fold, I dont like it at all tbh. And for the AJ we get a relatively cheap showdown, we are losing a lot but whats the point of calling turn if we are going to fold to that bet on that river card?

DaEm0niCuS   United States. Oct 01 2012 09:25. Posts 3290

Folding AJ two pair for 40 into 136 would be horrible. If your making these folds there is something wrong with your image or you have a VERY specific read on your opponent. Fish do tend to minraise strong but still.. 10 hands in id never fold. Why on earth would you call 27 on turn and fold to 40 on a fairly blank river, his minraise may very well be his idea of repping an ace and the weak river bet may just be trying to fold out draws. You think it's an easy fold I think it's horrible, what gives.

You seem to disagree without giving decent explanations as to why. HU is extremely player dependent and you seem to have reads that we are not aware of.

 Last edit: 01/10/2012 09:31

goose58   United States. Oct 04 2012 21:55. Posts 869

You shouldn't be raising these flops unless you know exactly what to do in response to his reactions.

In general, when you get 3-bet and you call IP, smooth calling these flop cbets is great because A) he bets/barrels his air, B) he bets weaker hands that might fold to a raise C) you protect the weaker parts of your range(weak FD, mid pairs, floats).

I would only raise these flops if A) I know for a fact his 3-bet range is wide B) I think he will stack off with more worse hands than better hands C) We are in a leveling war/history, which goes back to B.

Edit: This is for hands 2 and 3.

Hand 1: I'm probably calling down but not really happy about it. I expect to see a straight fairly often and sometimes a weaker hand like AK/AQ/AT. We have such good odds though and we get to see his hand.

 Last edit: 04/10/2012 22:04


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