10/20 rly weird hand

Okay so you don't have to tell me I already know I botched this one pretty badly...just wasn't sure what I should do differently at pretty much every point. Don't really remember the history cuz it was a few days ago, he was def a reg though and we had a fairly agro dynamic. Anonymous tables tho.

10/20 blinds, 3200 eff. stacks

I open AhTs UTG, MP 3bets to 170, all fold to me, I 4bet to 460 total, he calls.

Flop JhTc5s (pot ~920)

I bet 420, he calls

Turn 3s (pot ~1760) I bet 660, he raises to 1320 total leaving ~1020 behind, I tank and fold. I know the result now, btw, I'll reveal later.

With these stack sizes he's probably calling your 4bet with his entire 3betting range so 4betting pre is pretty bad unless you feel you have a lot of postflop fold equity. If that's the case I can't fault how u played it. If you started regretting your 4bet right away, probably just check flop since you can't face a raise, and as played check turn to induce a bluff.

If he's calling our 4 bet with his entire range then isn't a 4 bet really good for value?

no

Id shove turn because after 4betting can't really fold second pair top kicker, but that would be because I thought there was value in 4betting pre to begin with. Normally i'd just fold or call pre, mostly fold

why are you betting the turn?

once you did bet the turn I dont see how you can fold with these stacks

i either bet more on flop or less, I would've bet more.

then I would shove turn.

Otherwise just fold pre.

i was gonna jam the river if he called the turn.

for value?

On August 15 2012 00:56 PoorUser wrote: for value?

i think? lol

i take it you people betting/shoving turn are quite comfortable making A high calldowns on turn/river once you check turn. I think betting or checking turn is fine but i usually check because i don't want my opponents to be able to float my 1/3 size cbets easily, and don't want them to be able to vbet thin and exploit my weak turn check range. although AT would be the strongest hand in my turn check range.

Am i just playing way too nitty?

also 4betting ATo for value from utg sounds insane to me.

On August 15 2012 08:38 Stroggoz wrote: i take it you people betting/shoving turn are quite comfortable making A high calldowns on turn/river once you check turn. I think betting or checking turn is fine but i usually check because i don't want my opponents to be able to float my 1/3 size cbets easily, and don't want them to be able to vbet thin and exploit my weak turn check range. although AT would be the strongest hand in my turn check range. Am i just playing way too nitty? also 4betting ATo for value from utg sounds insane to me.

the difference is u r saying u dont want to bet small cuz u r afraid they will peel you, but i am saying i want them to keep calling and floating my small bets cuz they just burn money since they end up peeling trying to get there, then i just keep betting and my range is completely uncapped and theirs is always narrowly defined as weak unless they are trapping and then they end up folding on a later street or jamming in a spot where they don't rep any value hands and i just profit.

the inital 4b wasnt for value .. but when i got to that spot on the flop i didn't see what else i could do besides b/b/shove with the way the board ran out.

i just didn't know wtf to make of this committing raise in this spot. what do you guys interpret that to mean? what might you guys do that with in that type of spot and what would be your motivations for doing so?

the nut part of his range because you interpreted that he is weaker by calling turn

On August 16 2012 20:11 casinocasino wrote: the nut part of his range because you interpreted that he is weaker by calling turn

yeah i see where you're going with that assuming my logic is right.

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anybody want to venture a guess to what he was holding? ... i chkd the hand to see what he had.

he was holding Jx ?

Check flop with mid pair, it does not mean you're weak or giving up by checking flop when u raise utg and 4b. It also gives you more options x/c, x/r villain checks back.

But as played once you bet the turn you are pretty much willing to stack off it looks like.

I play in the micros

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He show QQ/AJ?

Even though you had an agro dynamic, I wouldn't go to fight his pre 3bet with ATo out of position.
Flop: after he calls I'd assume we don't beat much else than KQ or a chance AK/AQ that picked up a fdraw. I'd bet a bit more, to make folding an option for him as well. If we had a little bit better hand AJ/KQ I don't mind the small bet.
Turn: plank. If you think you are ahead check to induce bluff. When im betting the turn i'm hoping for a fold there cause on river we are still stabbing in the dark.

Opponent didn't reveal much about his hand. If you had agro dynaimic I'd say on turn he/she is still on quite wide range and you put yourself in a tough spot as you said and regret

Don't play on these stakes but like to discuss.

He had AQss and bought a new phone

results?

he had ako

What's your thought process for betting on the turn??

Anyway when he min raises you on the river and leave 1020 behind, I doubt he's ever bluffing here, so probably folding is better

min raise was turn, I think I would shove a lot here, or else what's the point of even 4betting ATo if we're gonna play it like that on this board :/

Haven't read second page yet, so don't know if you reveal results or not...but the turn raise seems like a typical live raise "to see what you have" or something with a hand that he considers ahead of your bluffs and weak-average holdings and behind your average-strong holdings. He expects you to fold a lot of your average range that is ahead of him. So I shove there 100% and expect to see folds.

Also, this might be completely off, but I see an interesting case for range narrowing here. I think 2 things are true about his hand here.
1. What I said above.
2. His pre-flop raising range is polarized between genuinely strong stuff and very speculative hands. I think it isn't unreasonable for a 3rd vs UTG PFR, even given aggro dynamic.

If you combine these two together, two things happen.
1. You eliminate made Tx and Jx hands from his range. If my polarized assumption is correct, they aren't in his 3-betting range.
2. My point above raising with a hand that beats up to weak-average hands means that he has weak Jx and Tx hands in his range and AK and AQ.
3. Combine the two, and you are left with AK and AQ.
4. Given that I think AQ doesn't 3bet you as much as AK, I think his hand here has to be mostly AK and sometimes AQ.

This read also explains call on flop. He's drawing to 10 outs. 8-9 if he is worried about the A helping you some of the time.

Anyway, my main point here is that it seems to me that this villain is playing his hand sort of face up and you can do a better job at analyzing the situation if you try to think of it as, "hey, he is looking at his cards and making this play, so what's he got?" instead of treating him as if he's got HEM open to help him. This isn't an online hand and 10/20 live for 3.2k isn't so high that you run into sickos who think about ranges and contingencies for every situation in life while staring at nothing but green felt. Imo the dude's a live regfish, so own him plz.

But then again, I could be way off, and MARSHALL's multilevel thinking about complex image crap might actually apply.

EDIT: oh kew ako

On December 03 2012 23:08 phexac wrote: 2. His pre-flop raising range is polarized between genuinely strong stuff and very speculative hands. I think it isn't unreasonable for a 3rd vs UTG PFR, even given aggro dynamic. If you combine these two together, two things happen. 1. You eliminate made Tx and Jx hands from his range. If my polarized assumption is correct, they aren't in his 3-betting range.

Why would his pre-flop raising range be polarized from mid position? Why would anybody's be for that matter?

On December 16 2012 04:15 HungarianGOD wrote: Show nested quote + On December 03 2012 23:08 phexac wrote: 2. His pre-flop raising range is polarized between genuinely strong stuff and very speculative hands. I think it isn't unreasonable for a 3rd vs UTG PFR, even given aggro dynamic. If you combine these two together, two things happen. 1. You eliminate made Tx and Jx hands from his range. If my polarized assumption is correct, they aren't in his 3-betting range. Why would his pre-flop raising range be polarized from mid position? Why would anybody's be for that matter?

It's generally more polarized because you cannot 3bet stuff like 88/99/TT/AJ for value against a tight UTG range except with very aggressive history. So you're left with a relatively narrow range of premium hands for value and then whatever you decide to bluff with. Since a lot of the middling hands that I mentioned prefer to call, you are left with weaker/more speculative hands to bluff with, therefore more polarized.