On August 12 2012 22:54 uiCk wrote:
why would you group spirituality/religion with philosophy/ethics?
Care to elaborate?
Yes, its a personal opinion though shared with many philosophers. Once you dwelve deep enough into philosophy you sort of end up (I and many others at least) in the same situation as I described above with science. You end in a situation where an entity/spirit/God is the most likely and probable explanation, because all the other possible explanations makes less sense or are even less likely than that.
Science and philosophy both leads to religion/spirituality if you follow the trail long enough.
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
On August 12 2012 22:54 uiCk wrote:
why would you group spirituality/religion with philosophy/ethics?
Care to elaborate?
Yes, its a personal opinion though shared with many philosophers. Once you dwelve deep enough into philosophy you sort of end up (I and many others at least) in the same situation as I described above with science. You end in a situation where an entity/spirit/God is the most likely and probable explanation, because all the other possible explanations makes less sense or are even less likely than that.
Care to elaborate? citing that others share your opinion, and making it look like you are a philosopher who has gatherings with other philosophers doesn't explain your point, nor does it follow the guidelines of philosophy, which is rational argumentation.
Personally, the probability of "us" not having capabilities to understand complex questions like existence, is much higher then us having the capabilities to understand complex questions like existence. Which is rational, because we don't understand these complex questions (but through scientific approach, we are able to understand our capacities of understanding things, see cognitive science, and move towards more "probable" answers)
I wish one of your guys had children if I could kick them in the fucking head or stomp on their testicles so you can feel my pain because thats the pain I have waking up everyday -- Mike Tyson
I might add that I was a devout atheist for 35 years, my father is atheist my mother is christian. I was brought up as an atheist and never believed in anything except science and logic for 35 years, until my studies of philosophy and science made me realize that an entity/God was the only possible or at least most probable explanation.
You can find old discussion on this board where I argue against religion, it is only about 3-4 years ago I got convinced I was wrong.
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
Science and philosophy both leads to religion/spirituality if you follow the trail long enough.
Both science and philosophy are "tools" to build stuff. Religion and spirituality are already "built stuff". We just keep rebuilding, because our tools keep getting sharper
I wish one of your guys had children if I could kick them in the fucking head or stomp on their testicles so you can feel my pain because thats the pain I have waking up everyday -- Mike Tyson
Science and philosophy both leads to religion/spirituality if you follow the trail long enough.
Both science and philosophy are "tools" to build stuff. Religion and spirituality are already "built stuff". We just keep rebuilding, because our tools keep getting sharper
Just like theories in science and philosophy keeps getting refined and revised as new information turns up, so does theories of religion and spirituality. You could even call it evolution. Times change and new theories and religions appear which are hopefully a little closer to the truth than the former versions. That way we will keep getting closer and closer to the truth, perhaps without ever getting there fully.
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
but if we are talking about spirituality and religion, the point is the the truth is known, aka the creator. Everthing is based on that "truth" which is more or less not a truth but and assumption.
I wish one of your guys had children if I could kick them in the fucking head or stomp on their testicles so you can feel my pain because thats the pain I have waking up everyday -- Mike Tyson
On August 12 2012 22:54 uiCk wrote:
why would you group spirituality/religion with philosophy/ethics?
Care to elaborate?
Yes, its a personal opinion though shared with many philosophers. Once you dwelve deep enough into philosophy you sort of end up (I and many others at least) in the same situation as I described above with science. You end in a situation where an entity/spirit/God is the most likely and probable explanation, because all the other possible explanations makes less sense or are even less likely than that.
Care to elaborate? citing that others share your opinion, and making it look like you are a philosopher who has gatherings with other philosophers doesn't explain your point, nor does it follow the guidelines of philosophy, which is rational argumentation.
Personally, the probability of "us" not having capabilities to understand complex questions like existence, is much higher then us having the capabilities to understand complex questions like existence. Which is rational, because we don't understand these complex questions (but through scientific approach, we are able to understand our capacities of understanding things, see cognitive science, and move towards more "probable" answers)
I dont have to justify what you put in to my words. I dont care if you think I am a philosopher or a bum. I speak of reason and logic and that is the only justification I need.
As I said it is a personal opinion/experience that took me years to realize, so I am afraid I can not explain the whole sequence of events that let me to that conclusion here in a short form, I am sorry. That is why I said it was a personal opinion/experience, it has to be experienced to be realized, I can hardly explain it all in words and especially not in a short term. By adding the "personal opinion" I sort of tried to say that I can not explain it to you, it is just a personal experience.
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
On August 12 2012 23:04 Zorglub wrote:
Science and philosophy both leads to religion/spirituality if you follow the trail long enough.
On August 12 2012 23:25 Zorglub wrote:
devout atheist...believed in anything except science and logic for 35 years, until my studies of philosophy and science made me realize that an entity/God was the only possible or at least most probable explanation.
On August 12 2012 23:32 Zorglub wrote:
Just like theories in science and philosophy keeps getting refined and revised as new information turns up, so does theories of religion and spirituality. You could even call it evolution. Times change and new theories and religions appear which are hopefully a little closer to the truth than the former versions. That way we will keep getting closer and closer to the truth, perhaps without ever getting there fully.
Biggest load of shit I've seen on here, congrats.
On August 12 2012 23:39 Zorglub wrote:
I dont have to justify what you put in to my words. I dont care if you think I am a philosopher or a bum. I speak of reason and logic and that is the only justification I need.
As I said it is a personal opinion/experience that took me years to realize, so I am afraid I can not explain the whole sequence of events that let me to that conclusion here in a short form, I am sorry. That is why I said it was a personal opinion/experience, it has to be experienced to be realized, I can hardly explain it all in words and especially not in a short term.
Typical response. You don't speak of reason or logic. Maybe in your own head that's how you justify it but no one here will be buying that crap. A former man of science my arse.
On August 12 2012 22:54 uiCk wrote:
why would you group spirituality/religion with philosophy/ethics?
Care to elaborate?
Yes, its a personal opinion though shared with many philosophers. Once you dwelve deep enough into philosophy you sort of end up (I and many others at least) in the same situation as I described above with science. You end in a situation where an entity/spirit/God is the most likely and probable explanation, because all the other possible explanations makes less sense or are even less likely than that.
Science and philosophy both leads to religion/spirituality if you follow the trail long enough.
Please elaborate on how you get that Sciencie and Philosophy leads towards religion/spirituality, I'm really interested in your answer. For me, Science help us understand a little bit more about our existence and Philosophy give us new questions, new aproachs to older questions and so on, but both of them are very humble disciplines that are in no point near to declare certainty about the most complex questions and from what I know that's not really similar to Religion in which you know, you have to be certain (at least in your mind) that you know 'for sure' that there is a god and that stuff because it requires blind faith to operate.
Well religion is individual too. To me religion is like science. I don't claim I know anything. In fact I am fairly sure that I don't know anything for sure, but from personal experience I believe that something is more likely than some other thing. Just like in science or in a court of law, the evidence I have pondered, leads me to believe that the probability of there being a God is more likely than there not being a God. So I belive there is a God until I find that one piece of evidence, that shoots down the whole theory, or until I find a better and more likely explanation.
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
On August 12 2012 23:04 Zorglub wrote:
Science and philosophy both leads to religion/spirituality if you follow the trail long enough.
On August 12 2012 23:25 Zorglub wrote:
devout atheist...believed in anything except science and logic for 35 years, until my studies of philosophy and science made me realize that an entity/God was the only possible or at least most probable explanation.
On August 12 2012 23:32 Zorglub wrote:
Just like theories in science and philosophy keeps getting refined and revised as new information turns up, so does theories of religion and spirituality. You could even call it evolution. Times change and new theories and religions appear which are hopefully a little closer to the truth than the former versions. That way we will keep getting closer and closer to the truth, perhaps without ever getting there fully.
Biggest load of shit I've seen on here, congrats.
On August 12 2012 23:39 Zorglub wrote:
I dont have to justify what you put in to my words. I dont care if you think I am a philosopher or a bum. I speak of reason and logic and that is the only justification I need.
As I said it is a personal opinion/experience that took me years to realize, so I am afraid I can not explain the whole sequence of events that let me to that conclusion here in a short form, I am sorry. That is why I said it was a personal opinion/experience, it has to be experienced to be realized, I can hardly explain it all in words and especially not in a short term.
Typical response. You don't speak of reason or logic. Maybe in your own head that's how you justify it but no one here will be buying that crap. A former man of science my arse.
Why don't you shut up or at least not try your petty arguement against the only unreasoned thing I have said in this entire thread, and which I specifically pointed out beforehand that I could/would not explain logically?
Argue any of the other stuff I have mentioned please or shut up.
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
Last edit: 13/08/2012 00:58
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Syllogism New Zealand. Aug 13 2012 01:00. Posts 214
This video is really good, the title says it all debunking the Kalam argument, @Zorgubal watch this
On August 12 2012 22:54 uiCk wrote:
why would you group spirituality/religion with philosophy/ethics?
Care to elaborate?
Yes, its a personal opinion though shared with many philosophers. Once you dwelve deep enough into philosophy you sort of end up (I and many others at least) in the same situation as I described above with science. You end in a situation where an entity/spirit/God is the most likely and probable explanation, because all the other possible explanations makes less sense or are even less likely than that.
Science and philosophy both leads to religion/spirituality if you follow the trail long enough.
Please elaborate on how you get that Sciencie and Philosophy leads towards religion/spirituality, I'm really interested in your answer. For me, Science help us understand a little bit more about our existence and Philosophy give us new questions, new aproachs to older questions and so on, but both of them are very humble disciplines that are in no point near to declare certainty about the most complex questions and from what I know that's not really similar to Religion in which you know, you have to be certain (at least in your mind) that you know 'for sure' that there is a god and that stuff because it requires blind faith to operate.
Well religion is individual too. To me religion is like science. I don't claim I know anything. In fact I am fairly sure that I don't know anything for sure, but from personal experience I believe that something is more likely than some other thing. Just like in science or in a court of law, the evidence I have pondered, leads me to believe that the probability of there being a God is more likely than there not being a God. So I belive there is a God until I find that one piece of evidence, that shoots down the whole theory, or until I find a better and more likely explanation.
Do you need to know to function properly? what is the purpose of believing in something, especially if you know there are good chances that this belief will change?
IMO that is OCD behavior to me (am not saying you have OCD, just a behavior that is OCD like).
i've posted this video a few times, but quite well explains the phenomenon that is religion in a different approach.
I wish one of your guys had children if I could kick them in the fucking head or stomp on their testicles so you can feel my pain because thats the pain I have waking up everyday -- Mike Tyson
On August 12 2012 22:54 uiCk wrote:
why would you group spirituality/religion with philosophy/ethics?
Care to elaborate?
Yes, its a personal opinion though shared with many philosophers. Once you dwelve deep enough into philosophy you sort of end up (I and many others at least) in the same situation as I described above with science. You end in a situation where an entity/spirit/God is the most likely and probable explanation, because all the other possible explanations makes less sense or are even less likely than that.
Science and philosophy both leads to religion/spirituality if you follow the trail long enough.
Please elaborate on how you get that Sciencie and Philosophy leads towards religion/spirituality, I'm really interested in your answer. For me, Science help us understand a little bit more about our existence and Philosophy give us new questions, new aproachs to older questions and so on, but both of them are very humble disciplines that are in no point near to declare certainty about the most complex questions and from what I know that's not really similar to Religion in which you know, you have to be certain (at least in your mind) that you know 'for sure' that there is a god and that stuff because it requires blind faith to operate.
Well religion is individual too. To me religion is like science. I don't claim I know anything. In fact I am fairly sure that I don't know anything for sure, but from personal experience I believe that something is more likely than some other thing. Just like in science or in a court of law, the evidence I have pondered, leads me to believe that the probability of there being a God is more likely than there not being a God. So I belive there is a God until I find that one piece of evidence, that shoots down the whole theory, or until I find a better and more likely explanation.
Do you need to know to function properly? what is the purpose of believing in something, especially if you know there are good chances that this belief will change?
IMO that is OCD behavior to me (am not saying you have OCD, just a behavior that is OCD like).
i've posted this video a few times, but quite well explains the phenomenon that is religion in a different approach.
I might have OCD I don't know and I don't really care. I will tell you the purpose, it is satisfying my "need to know" or curiosity. Why do men invent, explore and seek to know what they don't already know? I think it is built into us, it gives us satisfaction and it betters the human condition, that is why. For some it is not interesting, for others it brings a satisfying feeling which gives them motivation to explore.
I don't believe because I want to or I have to, I do it because that is the most rational/logical choice, just like you believe in science because you think that is the most logical choice.
A philosopher is literally translated a "lover of knowledge" and I guess that is why I do it.
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
On August 12 2012 22:54 uiCk wrote:
why would you group spirituality/religion with philosophy/ethics?
Care to elaborate?
Yes, its a personal opinion though shared with many philosophers. Once you dwelve deep enough into philosophy you sort of end up (I and many others at least) in the same situation as I described above with science. You end in a situation where an entity/spirit/God is the most likely and probable explanation, because all the other possible explanations makes less sense or are even less likely than that.
Science and philosophy both leads to religion/spirituality if you follow the trail long enough.
Please elaborate on how you get that Sciencie and Philosophy leads towards religion/spirituality, I'm really interested in your answer. For me, Science help us understand a little bit more about our existence and Philosophy give us new questions, new aproachs to older questions and so on, but both of them are very humble disciplines that are in no point near to declare certainty about the most complex questions and from what I know that's not really similar to Religion in which you know, you have to be certain (at least in your mind) that you know 'for sure' that there is a god and that stuff because it requires blind faith to operate.
Well religion is individual too. To me religion is like science. I don't claim I know anything. In fact I am fairly sure that I don't know anything for sure, but from personal experience I believe that something is more likely than some other thing. Just like in science or in a court of law, the evidence I have pondered, leads me to believe that the probability of there being a God is more likely than there not being a God. So I belive there is a God until I find that one piece of evidence, that shoots down the whole theory, or until I find a better and more likely explanation.
Do you need to know to function properly? what is the purpose of believing in something, especially if you know there are good chances that this belief will change?
IMO that is OCD behavior to me (am not saying you have OCD, just a behavior that is OCD like).
i've posted this video a few times, but quite well explains the phenomenon that is religion in a different approach.
I might have OCD I don't know and I don't really care. I will tell you the purpose, it is satisfying my "need to know" or curiosity. Why do men invent, explore and seek to know what they don't already know? I think it is built into us, it gives us satisfaction and it betters the human condition, that is why. For some it is not interesting, for others it brings a satisfying feeling which gives them motivation to explore.
I don't believe because I want to or I have to, I do it because that is the most logical choice, just like you believe in science because you think that is the most logical choice.
Well that example doesn't apply to you nor religion. Religion and spirituality is based on the fact that there is a creator and we have souls or whatever, and neither "disciplines" make any effort in trying to "prove" that "fact". Wheres a inventor or discoverer will "belive" in his idea and go on and make it reality. Neither religion nor spirituality nor you have anything in common with what the real process of creation is all about.
I wish one of your guys had children if I could kick them in the fucking head or stomp on their testicles so you can feel my pain because thats the pain I have waking up everyday -- Mike Tyson
On August 12 2012 22:54 uiCk wrote:
why would you group spirituality/religion with philosophy/ethics?
Care to elaborate?
Yes, its a personal opinion though shared with many philosophers. Once you dwelve deep enough into philosophy you sort of end up (I and many others at least) in the same situation as I described above with science. You end in a situation where an entity/spirit/God is the most likely and probable explanation, because all the other possible explanations makes less sense or are even less likely than that.
Science and philosophy both leads to religion/spirituality if you follow the trail long enough.
Please elaborate on how you get that Sciencie and Philosophy leads towards religion/spirituality, I'm really interested in your answer. For me, Science help us understand a little bit more about our existence and Philosophy give us new questions, new aproachs to older questions and so on, but both of them are very humble disciplines that are in no point near to declare certainty about the most complex questions and from what I know that's not really similar to Religion in which you know, you have to be certain (at least in your mind) that you know 'for sure' that there is a god and that stuff because it requires blind faith to operate.
Well religion is individual too. To me religion is like science. I don't claim I know anything. In fact I am fairly sure that I don't know anything for sure, but from personal experience I believe that something is more likely than some other thing. Just like in science or in a court of law, the evidence I have pondered, leads me to believe that the probability of there being a God is more likely than there not being a God. So I belive there is a God until I find that one piece of evidence, that shoots down the whole theory, or until I find a better and more likely explanation.
Do you need to know to function properly? what is the purpose of believing in something, especially if you know there are good chances that this belief will change?
IMO that is OCD behavior to me (am not saying you have OCD, just a behavior that is OCD like).
i've posted this video a few times, but quite well explains the phenomenon that is religion in a different approach.
I might have OCD I don't know and I don't really care. I will tell you the purpose, it is satisfying my "need to know" or curiosity. Why do men invent, explore and seek to know what they don't already know? I think it is built into us, it gives us satisfaction and it betters the human condition, that is why. For some it is not interesting, for others it brings a satisfying feeling which gives them motivation to explore.
I don't believe because I want to or I have to, I do it because that is the most logical choice, just like you believe in science because you think that is the most logical choice.
Well that example doesn't apply to you nor religion. Religion and spirituality is based on the fact that there is a creator and we have souls or whatever, and neither "disciplines" make any effort in trying to "prove" that "fact". Wheres a inventor or discoverer will "belive" in his idea and go on and make it reality. Neither religion nor spirituality nor you have anything in common with what the real process of creation is all about.
See there are sort of like two types of reality, there is the one we all can see and feel and experience, the objective reality. Then there is another, the realm of thoughts, the individual, the subjective reality. Science only gives us answers and theories about the objective reality, while spirituality/philosophy gives us answer and theories about the subjective reality.
What is in the realm of thoughts can never be proved or discussed by ordinary science because it might be purely subjective and thus does not stand any objective scrutiny, but never the less we all know it exists and it is real to the individual.
Creation can happen in both types of reality, you can create things in your mind, in fact I believe every invention and creation starts out that way. Some of the creations stay in the realm of thoughts as concepts and ideas, purely speculative thought constructs which only serve a purpose for creating other/new thought constructs, they only have a purpose in the realm of thought, while others are ment for the objective reality as inventions and technology.
PS. I don't believe there exists any such thing as a "fact", there are only higher or lesser probabilities. You can never know anything for a fact as in 100% certainty, nothing is, at least not to us humans
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
On August 12 2012 23:56 Zorglub wrote:
Why don't you shut up or at least not try your petty arguement against the only unreasoned thing I have said in this entire thread, and which I specifically pointed out beforehand that I could/would not explain logically?
Argue any of the other stuff I have mentioned please or shut up.
I'm not arguing with you at all. Nothing to be gained from trying to influence a fool with such bastardised definitions of science and logic.
On August 12 2012 23:32 Zorglub wrote:
Times change and new theories and religions appear which are hopefully a little closer to the truth than the former versions.
Can't argue with that sort of madness.
Good luck with your personal journey but don't pretend to equate it to anything close to scientific method or experimentation (in a scientific sense).
On August 12 2012 23:56 Zorglub wrote:
Why don't you shut up or at least not try your petty arguement against the only unreasoned thing I have said in this entire thread, and which I specifically pointed out beforehand that I could/would not explain logically?
Argue any of the other stuff I have mentioned please or shut up.
I'm not arguing with you at all. Nothing to be gained from trying to influence a fool with such bastardised definitions of science and logic.
On August 12 2012 23:32 Zorglub wrote:
Times change and new theories and religions appear which are hopefully a little closer to the truth than the former versions.
Can't argue with that sort of madness.
Good luck with your personal journey but don't pretend to equate it to anything close to scientific method or experimentation (in a scientific sense).
Nope can't argue against your convincing arguments, good luck with your flat earth and geocentric theories.
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
Philosophy is the process of creating theories. Spirituality is a theory. Spirituality does not give us answers, but IS an answer to the "subjective" realm. Philosophy is the process of organizing and understanding the "subjective" realm, or in real terms, knowledge, ideas, arguments, logic etc.
i'm arguing about that semantic, since i don't want to see philosophy and other useful disciplines be dragged down to the uselessness that is spirituality and it's monstrous creation which is religion; which in your terms, decimates the "subjective" realm by replacing it with absolutes like God, Heaven, Soul and other ideas to "satisfy one need to know" instead of letting oneself be content with what really drives everything, which is chaos.
As for the OCD part, you are right that what drives people is curiosity and the "need to know" which is why Organized religion has had such huge success harvesting that impulsive "need to know"
i'm going to stop here, i was only interested into seeing if you actually had anything thoughtful of why you would group philosophy and spirituality and religion into one group; which you have not accomplished since your only point is that they all deal with theoretical work (one creates theories the other is a theory and the other is organized ponzi scheme, where the higher returns are a promise that you matter and will live forever)
I wish one of your guys had children if I could kick them in the fucking head or stomp on their testicles so you can feel my pain because thats the pain I have waking up everyday -- Mike Tyson
Perhaps there is a logical reason for the existence of religions? Perhaps it has to do with diversity? If we look at what we know, it sure looks like mother earth prefers diversity over almost everything else. Maybe religion is responsible for the diversity of cultures, traditions and people, the stuff that makes the earth an exciting and interesting place to live, where you can experience new and different stuff everywhere? Wouldn't it be boring if we were all the same and everywhere you went looked the same?
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
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