[POLL]Your religion? - Page 13

zorglub, that quote was me making fun of farmlife, using his own logic. He;s the one who stated there are pdeos everywhere, i never made that statement.

Also, everywhere is not = normal, nor does it represent the most common behavior.

On August 16 2012 20:34 Zorglub wrote: Show nested quote + On August 16 2012 20:25 uiCk wrote: probably a good idea to stick to the actual meaning of the word. Normal is also used to describe when someone's behaviour conforms to the most common behaviour in society - wiki And that's the Normality in a behavioral context. You can make all kinds of arguments when you apply your own definitions of words. "The church staying silent and protecting its fellow pedophiles is absolutely normal, given that there are pedophiles everywhere." So you tell me there are pedophiles everywhere, yet it is not common behavior?

Woosh.

oh and the definition that i pulled from wiki said "the most common behavior" not "common behavior".

but yea, keep making up words and changing my quotes.

On August 16 2012 20:36 Spitfiree wrote: Show nested quote + On August 16 2012 15:22 dnagardi wrote: eternal life seems reeeeal boring to me 100 years life & infinity of non-existence sounds much more interesting :D Also you are messing the things up, the church as a closed society takes that as normal to protect its phedophiles due to bad publicity which would lead to loss of respect to the institution, closed society behaviour and global society behaviour are 2 very different things. Another extreme example would be KKK - pretty normal for them to be racist and its even a foundamental part of the society, however the global community is exactly at the other side of things. Those two things are not comparable

But who is this "global community" ? Does it include the animals? The plants? Does it include potential ET's? Shouldn't they be included if you claim you are the majority and you are talking for the majority?

On August 16 2012 20:54 uiCk wrote: oh and the definition that i pulled from wiki said "the most common behavior" not "common behavior". but yea, keep making up words and changing my quotes.

But that definition of the word "normal" is stupid. It would make everyone of us "not normal", because everyone of us has one or more areas where we don't behave as the majority.

cool story.

On August 16 2012 20:25 uiCk wrote: You can make all kinds of arguments when you apply your own definitions of words.

And syntax, gj of accusing me of everything that you yourself are doing.

Class act.

Keep running your mouth, this is the internet after all.

On August 17 2012 03:44 brambolius wrote: And syntax, gj of accusing me of everything that you yourself are doing. Class act. Keep running your mouth, this is the internet after all.

What the hell are you talking about? You keep saying one and two liners with no content, never bringing anything to the table. It's amazing how much you go out of your way to not face an argument but rather resort to attacking personally. What exactly did i accuse you of that you say i'm doing myself? If it's that you believe what i said to be incorrect, that is, Christianity = Catholicism? Than i stand by my word because i am confident to say that they are from the same branch and although differ in small ways (like the many branches of Christianity), in the end, they come from same book and are the of same fundamental philosophy.

"Worldwide the three largest groups of Christianity are the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the various denominations of Protestantism"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity

Why don't you actually use your brain for once instead of constantly deflecting points made against you with stupid jabs toward my character. "Keep running my mouth?" Really? I'm the only one in this conversation that is saying anything worth something... all you ever do is try to insult.

Okay.

In brambolius's defense he does not understand English.

On August 16 2012 19:30 Zorglub wrote: Can you explain how this supposed free will works, I can not figure it out? Could you also please explain what good and evil is? compared to what? and to whom is it good and evil? Would it be evil if you took a guy out of a fire and put him in cold water? Would it be evil if you took a guy out of a comfortable place and put him in cold water? If a guy rapes a girl, is the act good or evil for the guy? If the girl had a fantasy about getting raped by a stranger would the act be good or evil for the girl? If a sadist hits a masochist, is that a good or evil act? If everyone was throwing knives at their neighbour, the good guy would be the one who only threw stones at his neighbour. Would he really be a good guy then? Or the reverse situation, if everyone gave their neighbour a house, the evil guy would be the one who only gave his neighbour a car, would this guy be evil? Or does good and evil only exist relative to each other and the situation? If God created everything and is everything, who are "we"?

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5M.HTM

That's what the Vatican has to say about free will. I don't know how to prove to you that you have free will, if we have no free will then future is predetermined. I just think that the universe is to random to many things left to chance for the future to be predetermined.

And yes obviously good and evil are relative things. Moral values are determined by your society and culture, so good and evil is different to everyone. Its not so much your actions but your intent behind the action that make something right or wrong. A rich man steals a loaf of bread from the grocery store because he doesn't want to pay for it is clearly doing something wrong, a poor man steals a loaf of bread to feed his starving children while still doing something society says is wrong is not doing something evil imo. I don't think you actually need evil to measure good. You can easily measure it by weather or not it is beneficial for everyone, while an action might only directly benefit one person often at times it will indirectly benefit the group or community as a whole if it is a good action. An evil action will only directly benefit one person and have negative consequences directly and indirectly effect many of a community or group.

+ Show Spoiler +

It's amazing how you can attribute natural phenomenons to God. It's like evidence for you.
Someone says:

"God allows children to die unfairly everyday." = GOD GAVE US FREE WILL DUH + Show Spoiler +

"Children die unfairly everyday." = WELL U GOTTA HAVE BAD TO UNDERSTAND GOOD + Show Spoiler +

"Children die unfairly everyday." = WELL AFTERLIFE OWNS COMPARED TO THIS LIFE SO TECHNICALLY THEYRE LUCKY + Show Spoiler +

These are the kind of sick twisted justifications i find terrifying. One could so easily rationalize the slaughter of millions of people with any of the reasons you've provided. Don't you see how all you're doing is justifying and rationalizing, with tremendous bias, toward the religion you were brought up to believe? Imagine you'd been born in India, in all probability you would be Hindu and you'd be finding ways to defend your polytheistic beliefs. All the justifications you said for bad things that happen are EXACTLY what religious people ALWAYS say. But the fact still remains, innocent children go through horrific lives in many parts of the world and they feel horrific pain. God allows this to happen, whether or not your church teaches you how to justify these acts, they still happen. Maybe your religion plays as some type of coping mechanism from reality but there is absolutely nothing you've said that hasn't been said a million times by various Christians around the world and i'm not sure you realize this fact. The reason why so many of you say the same things is because that is how the church teaches you to think. It teaches you how to justify atrocities in the way you've done so. I also find it interesting that like many Christians, you believe your interpretation of what it's like to go to heaven is the most correct.

Where Sam Harris goes wrong is his understanding of what it actually takes to get to hell, you have to reject God in the afterlife. So if you died and there was an afterlife and basically you have concrete evidence that God does exist you pretty much have to say no to God and throw him the finger to end up in hell.

You're like "Oh well, that person has no idea what they're talking about...allow me to explain to you what really happens in heaven." You mean to tell me, you actually go around telling people with some kind of certainty that you KNOW what's going to happen to them after they die? Really? You must've been there before, i assume? By the way, who in their right mind would reject "GOD" if they had proof right in front of them when they went to "heaven" Lol what the hell kind of shit is that? So basically you're saying that you can do whatever havoc here on earth but as long as you believe in god the moment you see him after you die, you'll be okay? That kind of shit is nothing more than you making up stories in your head, bro.

I say Catholic rather then Christian because there are many different branches and well shit Mormons and Jehovah Witness seem bat shit crazy to me.

Yet you believe in zombie jesus, adam and even, moses parting river, noahs ark and other similarly supernatural/bat shit crazy stories.

However if your an Atheist when you going to criticize a faith directly spend the time to actually understand it.

Not sure if this was directed toward Sam Harris, but if so, i'm certain he knows far more than most Christians about the bible. Afterall, he's clearly very well versed on the subject, so i believe what he says to rings true and remains valid regardless if you think your interpretation of the bible is more accurate than his. But let it be known that it's the content of what he is saying that gives him validity in my eyes, not that he's got credentials.

On August 17 2012 10:51 taco wrote: In brambolius's defense he does not understand English.

inglash r hard for maek undrastand dat is tru bat ey dooing maked my best traaying it.

verry sawry if ey offanded enniwon !

On August 16 2012 15:05 FarmMylife wrote: However if your an Atheist when you going to criticize a faith directly spend the time to actually understand it.

This is the internet, everyone understands everything obv.

^You have to be one of the most annoying posters on this forum. You bring absolutely no substance to the table with your frivolous comments. Please just do everyone a favor and kill yourself so to stop yourself from clogging the discussion with your pointless, ignorant opinions. Or better yet, someone should just ban you.

You still haven't even answered anything i've said to you regarding Christianity and narcissism. Or about your accusation of me being hypocritical about something you failed to even explain. You are the epitome of someone who is incapable of having an honest discussion.

Please just fucking ban brambolious it could not be any more fucking obvious that he is just trolling us.

On August 17 2012 12:46 brambolius wrote: Show nested quote + On August 17 2012 10:51 taco wrote: In brambolius's defense he does not understand English. inglash r hard for maek undrastand dat is tru bat ey dooing maked my best traaying it. verry sawry if ey offanded enniwon !

You know very well what I mean't. You have no clue what words mean nor what sentences mean. You do not know the meaning of what you say.

On August 17 2012 12:46 brambolius wrote: Show nested quote + On August 17 2012 10:51 taco wrote: In brambolius's defense he does not understand English. inglash r hard for maek undrastand dat is tru bat ey dooing maked my best traaying it. verry sawry if ey offanded enniwon !

On August 17 2012 11:00 FarmMylife wrote: Show nested quote + On August 16 2012 19:30 Zorglub wrote: Can you explain how this supposed free will works, I can not figure it out? Could you also please explain what good and evil is? compared to what? and to whom is it good and evil? Would it be evil if you took a guy out of a fire and put him in cold water? Would it be evil if you took a guy out of a comfortable place and put him in cold water? If a guy rapes a girl, is the act good or evil for the guy? If the girl had a fantasy about getting raped by a stranger would the act be good or evil for the girl? If a sadist hits a masochist, is that a good or evil act? If everyone was throwing knives at their neighbour, the good guy would be the one who only threw stones at his neighbour. Would he really be a good guy then? Or the reverse situation, if everyone gave their neighbour a house, the evil guy would be the one who only gave his neighbour a car, would this guy be evil? Or does good and evil only exist relative to each other and the situation? If God created everything and is everything, who are "we"? http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5M.HTM That's what the Vatican has to say about free will. I don't know how to prove to you that you have free will, if we have no free will then future is predetermined. I just think that the universe is to random to many things left to chance for the future to be predetermined. And yes obviously good and evil are relative things. Moral values are determined by your society and culture, so good and evil is different to everyone. Its not so much your actions but your intent behind the action that make something right or wrong. A rich man steals a loaf of bread from the grocery store because he doesn't want to pay for it is clearly doing something wrong, a poor man steals a loaf of bread to feed his starving children while still doing something society says is wrong is not doing something evil imo. I don't think you actually need evil to measure good. You can easily measure it by weather or not it is beneficial for everyone, while an action might only directly benefit one person often at times it will indirectly benefit the group or community as a whole if it is a good action. An evil action will only directly benefit one person and have negative consequences directly and indirectly effect many of a community or group.

Their only explanation is "Man is rational, so he has free will", but if everything man reacts to and uses his rationality as a response to, is not controlled by man, then he can be as rational as he wants to he would still not have a free will. He would act exactly like the environment told his rationality to act.

And how can you claim to know what is beneficial and what is not, when you cannot figure out the long term consequence of your actions and you don't really know what others want? According to your reasoning, it would be ok for me to kill half the worlds population, because by doing so I would benefit the group that is the other half, and I wouldn't even have to be right as long as my intensions were good.

On August 17 2012 11:27 Syntax wrote: Show nested quote + Where Sam Harris goes wrong is his understanding of what it actually takes to get to hell, you have to reject God in the afterlife. So if you died and there was an afterlife and basically you have concrete evidence that God does exist you pretty much have to say no to God and throw him the finger to end up in hell. You're like "Oh well, that person has no idea what they're talking about...allow me to explain to you what really happens in heaven." You mean to tell me, you actually go around telling people with some kind of certainty that you KNOW what's going to happen to them after they die? Really? You must've been there before, i assume? By the way, who in their right mind would reject "GOD" if they had proof right in front of them when they went to "heaven" Lol what the hell kind of shit is that? So basically you're saying that you can do whatever havoc here on earth but as long as you believe in god the moment you see him after you die, you'll be okay? That kind of shit is nothing more than you making up stories in your head, bro.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Here is the link to what a Mortal Sin is

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM

So when I said rejecting God what I was referring to was

1864 "Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

I should go on to say I am not a devout Catholic ( Only go to church when absolutely necessary and pray maybe like once a year) and am not so naive to think that Catholics are a 100% right on the subject of God and the afterlife. But I grew up with it and I understand the doctrines and teachings better then I understand the doctrines of Hinduism or Islam. The argument of why does God let innocent people die and bad things happen in the world is not a new question. Anyone that is not religious always 100% of the time goes to that question, the statements I made went beyond what Sam Harris said that most Christians say of "God works in mysterious ways". Just consider for one a second that there was a omnipotent being that created the universe. This being can see everything all at the same time the past presence and every possible future outcome, would it not be extremely arrogant for a human to try presume to understand that beings mind?

I also don't believe in a zombie Jesus this is an over simplification of the resurrection. The books of the New Testament were written some 30-70 Years after Jesus died and are claimed to be eye witness accounts but are translated from oral Hebrew accounts to written Greek. Its possible something was lost in the translation.

And yes Sam Harris may be well versed in the bible, but he does not have a degree in Theology. He's interpreting the bible as a literal account, but each Christian Faith interprets the bible differently and has different views on almost everything. They have the common belief that Jesus was the Messiah, but what outsiders view as only slight difference are huge theological differences. When we look at Islam you would say Sunni's and Shiite are pretty much the same thing, but clearly they disagree on something that is pretty important to them otherwise why the religious split? Religious views are very individualist generalizing them is the same as me saying all jamaicans can run fast. Maybe it doesn't come the same way but these days if you say your religious or that you go to church people look at you like your some crazy fundamentalist evangelical preacher. I could care less if you believe in God or don't, or if your a Jew Muslim Christian or Atheist, more people need to learn religious tolerance the same way people learn that racism is wrong.
Till Science can explain the universe in full detail there will always be mysteries out there that people will use God to explain and I don't agree with this at all. I don't think Science will ever prove or disprove God and religious people will always come up with a new to argue it. Religion gives people a sense of community and most of the time they have a positive impact. And yeah sometimes a segment of the religion has a negative impact. Every Muslim is not a suicide bomber, not every Catholic priest is a pedophile a Religion a whole can't be blamed for the actions of an individual that happens subscribe to that faith. Religions have done a lot more good for our society then harm, be it soup kitchens, running homeless shelters, aid missions to Africa etc etc etc. Everyone that I directly know that practices some type religion has never expressed a negative impact on there life as a result of being religious.