2/5 live deep, questionable decision pf blows up

Played this hand a couple weeks ago at the wynn, cant seem to stop thinking about it. Wynn's buy in is a bit higher for 2/5, 200min 1500max so once in awhile the game gets kind of big/deep and since I dont have much experience playing deep live, this kinda fucked me over

Anyways, the hand in question, it was straddled to 10 preflop, utg2 who is more of a thinking fish opens to 35 (about 1k deep). Solid young British reg sitting about 3k deep that covers everyone calls. I'm next to act in mp2 and called w/QQ (about 2.5k deep)
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Action folds around to the small blind who makes it 135 (playing about 1400)
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Utg2 calls the 135 and the young competent reg calls the 135 as well. Here I opted to 4b/fold vs the sb and call vs both the fish and the reg. I felt like the only person that would have me crushed is sb.
Question 1: What should my 4b size be?
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Question 2: As an added aside, how does having the Qd (or not having the Qd) change my decision?

General question: how should I be basing my sizing decisions when deeper?
General question 2: if I had thought the preflop action was fish limp and competent reg iso, should I be more or less inclined to 3b when it first gets to me, or should I be 3 betting regardless? The competent reg has been attacking the weak spot to his right, as well as the other weaker spots in the game.

easy 4 bet call vs all *but the guy 3k deeep. your 4 bet sizing is terrible as well - against 3 players you are minraising. make it like 600

On July 11 2012 05:17 julep wrote: easy 4 bet call vs all *but the guy 3k deeep. your 4 bet sizing is terrible as well - against 3 players you are minraising. make it like 600

I was folding vs a 5b from the 1400 stack in sb. Not folding preflop vs the reg to my right who has me covered. 4b to 600 would go against what I had planned when I decided to 4b.
Not saying thats a great assessment of the situation or anything, I just dont want people to think I made a typo.

On July 11 2012 05:22 gawdawaful wrote: Show nested quote + On July 11 2012 05:17 julep wrote: easy 4 bet call vs all *but the guy 3k deeep. your 4 bet sizing is terrible as well - against 3 players you are minraising. make it like 600 I was folding vs a 5b from the 1400 stack in sb. Not folding preflop vs the reg to my right who has me covered. 4b to 600 would go against what I had planned when I decided to 4b. Not saying thats a great assessment of the situation or anything, I just dont want people to think I made a typo.

you dont look strong. given the straddling and general live shenanigans i dont see how you cant 4 bet call vs sb. it is essentially 1knl

lol600 I agree 310 is too small but 600 is ridiculous.
As played I snap call because there is no reason for sb to lead when I will cbet most of my range.

On July 11 2012 05:28 julep wrote: Show nested quote + On July 11 2012 05:22 gawdawaful wrote:   On July 11 2012 05:17 julep wrote: easy 4 bet call vs all *but the guy 3k deeep. your 4 bet sizing is terrible as well - against 3 players you are minraising. make it like 600 I was folding vs a 5b from the 1400 stack in sb. Not folding preflop vs the reg to my right who has me covered. 4b to 600 would go against what I had planned when I decided to 4b. Not saying thats a great assessment of the situation or anything, I just dont want people to think I made a typo. you dont look strong. given the straddling and general live shenanigans i dont see how you cant 4 bet call vs sb. it is essentially 1knl

this is true tho.
you are 140bb deep.

On July 11 2012 05:28 julep wrote: Show nested quote + On July 11 2012 05:22 gawdawaful wrote:   On July 11 2012 05:17 julep wrote: easy 4 bet call vs all *but the guy 3k deeep. your 4 bet sizing is terrible as well - against 3 players you are minraising. make it like 600 I was folding vs a 5b from the 1400 stack in sb. Not folding preflop vs the reg to my right who has me covered. 4b to 600 would go against what I had planned when I decided to 4b. Not saying thats a great assessment of the situation or anything, I just dont want people to think I made a typo. you dont look strong. given the straddling and general live shenanigans i dont see how you cant 4 bet call vs sb. it is essentially 1knl

Fair points, but up to this point, sb hasn't gone out of his way to attack either the young brit or myself. This might be relevant, but I can't recall a situation where he 3b preflop yet. Basically all of the preflop 3b is being done by the young British reg.

in practice: i sigh, call
from home in front of my computer, i want to pitch

if you arent planning to get it in vs the 3 bettor i dont think 4 betting is such a good choice

was the fish opening alot? and how wide do the sb squeeze here? sb should only be squeezing for value since expecting people to fold is silly. And with the small 4bet and fish behind he will problaby never fold to your 4bet.

If sb can show up with AJ here i think its a call. I think he can show up with something like AJ, AKdd, AQdd, KQdd and KK/AA.

On July 12 2012 08:11 Jussi wrote: was the fish opening alot? and how wide do the sb squeeze here? sb should only be squeezing for value since expecting people to fold is silly. And with the small 4bet and fish behind he will problaby never fold to your 4bet. If sb can show up with AJ here i think its a call. I think he can show up with something like AJ, AKdd, AQdd, KQdd and KK/AA.

why would he donk KK AA ?

why would he donk anything? maybe he just doesnt want it to get checked through and its a pot sized bet anyway

so he trap KK/AA pre but he's afraid of this flop?

AK AQdd always cbet this flop. there is no reason at all to donkbet hence he has a draw / Jx / random bullshit.
I bet 100% this flop so if he shows JJ KK AA gg him but he get my money without a donkbet anyway

edit: I like a donk with Jx actually because I probably call with TT.

I think alot of people will check AK here, especially since we have a fish in the pot. If you for some reason think it might get checked through donking AA/KK here is perfectly reasonable. I don't think we can exclude AA/KK from his donking range.

That said I still think it's a call unless we know he's a tight 3bettor.

before reading the thread:
Q1: don't 4bet. i don't understand how you can be happy getting it in. even for 150bb. utg-open, sb3b. "solid young british reg" is the only player who hasn't represented reasonable strength thus far.
you have great position and will make very few mistakes post for an awesome price.
i dont know what not to love.

What if I frame the decision like this? We went from a really simple odds/multiplway call to a marginal stackoff. Our villains are "a thinking fish", 'solid young reg", "competent young reg".

someone slap me and let me know if I'm overcompensating for it being 10 handed or some shit.
anyway if you were to 4b/stack, I'd make it like 400. Smaller if it looks like multiple players will fold as you think about sizing.

Q2: prolly fold. the mistake is pre though.


after reading the thread:
...people seem to be overthinking this spot.

Pooruser seems to be the only one who has a clue here...
Julep has a point about 'live shenanigans', so I'll mention that while in principle I don't agree this is a standard stack off, he can argue for it. I suspect he's not very sure himself when he recommends we size to like 40%+ of our stack...

random: spots like this are the reason why while ago when we chatted on skype, I felt most people don't pay enough attention to their opponents/image live. there is a LOT going on and the 'young competent reg' read here can be expanded to something useful instead of something that just makes you doubt your decisions.

General 1: too complicated and 'it depends'. skype me if you wanna talk more, preferably with another hand so we have something to generalize from.

General 2: While I used to worry about these decisions...these days I default to "pay more attention and don't misread the action".
In general I'm flatting here. Keeps the fish in the pot.
Ask yourself what you do if 4bet, and how the value of him calling compares to the fish in the pot.
Those are the things I weigh (necessity to fold to 4bet, reg calling, fish calling either the cold 3b or overcalling our call). Lean heavily towards seeing a flop the better reads I have.

make it 415 preflop, cant see anyone having you beat pre..

Yeah if you think a 4bet is good against sb's range, if you 4bet smaller you have to be willing to get it in on this flop and if you 4bet larger you have to be willing to get it in pre. With the small 4bet size, which I don't necessarily disagree with since just getting value vs the fish is so important, villain really has no choice but to call his entire suited range pre and open shove any draw on the flop.

On July 12 2012 22:09 casinocasino wrote: make it 415 preflop, cant see anyone having you beat pre..

yeah, i call flop too, guy is really bad no matter what he has.

flop is a SNAP fist pump call, this backraise 4-bet is very fishy looking hes gonna call/make plays wider then he should

I made a pretty annoyed but quick call on flop. I felt like he was more likely to be jamming for value on flop since he wanted to force the fish to decide before I do anything (ie. maybe he thought fish is more likely to fold if its checked to me, I bet, and he calls) although maybe I was just thinking too much about all the wrong things in this hand.
He had 44 for bottom set

lolll he flat 44 vs 4b OOP.

but yea once u 4b this hand you are 100% going with this all the way. otherwise you should be flatting the 3 bet and playing flops in position..and with QQ in pos it isn't a bad choice either. make a mental note of this that villain is insanely bad (his 3bet is also horrible) and go adjust accordlingly.

why would he squeeze this spot with 44, oop, in a live game, not so deep with everyone since straddle and with 2 fishs in the hand. I'll never understand.

On August 14 2012 01:06 careface_ wrote: why would he squeeze this spot with 44, oop, in a live game, not so deep with everyone since straddle and with 2 fishs in the hand. I'll never understand.

Deception boy, deception