KQs semi deep

This was a late night session. So theres only around 15-20 tables running. Me and villain being on all of them. Tons of 4bet 5bet history. I was pretty flustered with the turn sizing, given theres about 280 or so behind. So i tanked for a good 20-30 seconds before i decided to call turn. Comments on all streets are appreciated.

Relevant stats. Villain is 26/20 10.4 3bet / 4bet range 2.6. Pretty solid as far as im concerned.

Submitted by : handbanana21

$200.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, July 02, 01:05:45 ET 2012
Table Bitias II Real Money
Seat 3 is the button
Seat 1: redacesfull $211.96 USD
Seat 2: SmbSmbSmb $209.24 USD
Seat 3: alloman $231.20 USD
Seat 4: Hero $492.39 USD
Seat 5: hysteric200 $482.14 USD
Seat 6: daribuc $204.61 USD
Hero posts small blind [$1.00 USD].
hysteric200 posts big blind [$2.00 USD].

Holecards
Dealt to Hero [ ]
daribuc folds
redacesfull folds
SmbSmbSmb raises [$4.00 USD]
alloman raises [$12.00 USD]
Hero raises [$27.00 USD]
hysteric200 raises [$58.00 USD]
SmbSmbSmb folds
alloman folds
Hero calls [$32.00 USD]

Flop (Pot : $133.00)

   
Hero checks
hysteric200 bets [$50.00 USD]
Hero calls [$50.00 USD]

Turn (Pot : $233.00)

   
Hero checks
hysteric200 bets [$90.00 USD]
Hero calls [$90.00 USD]

River (Pot : $413.00)

   
Hero checks

Im open to 6betting pre, I just felt majority of the time im up against Ax suited hands or offsuit broadways alot. And my hand plays very well vs that range.

if you have the dynamic for it, then i like 6 betting more than flatting. looks fine as played.
i like 6 betting more because i think initiative is a bigger advantage in 4bet+ pots than it is in single raised pots, probably because cbet sizes don't have to be as big and ranges are a little more defined.

if you are calling pf and flop isnt turn a pretty easy get it in

On July 02 2012 18:14 Stroggoz wrote: if you have the dynamic for it, then i like 6 betting more than flatting. looks fine as played. i like 6 betting more because i think initiative is a bigger advantage in 4bet+ pots than it is in single raised pots, probably because cbet sizes don't have to be as big and ranges are a little more defined.

Yea makes sense. I certainly wouldve 6bet KQo. But given the dynamic hes prob flatting 100% of his range to a 6bet due to the psr, and my range looks pretty damn polarized. So I think a 6bet to like 104 would be better in a vacuum.

On July 02 2012 19:08 PoorUser wrote: if you are calling pf and flop isnt turn a pretty easy get it in

I think the sizing threw me off. I wouldve c/jammed to a bet of like 140+. Whats the amount that we can call just for bare equity? ( I also had no river plans, when i decided to call the turn.) Is a c/ min raise better? That way we still can potentially have him reship or call with straight draws? Turn minraise would leave 215 or so behind.

looks like a simple preflop fold i can't imagine this call being profitable

as played i like turn call if he could be playing jj like this PF

i like shove if jj isn't in his range

You are getting direct odds even if no more money goes in when you hit, there is some reverse implied odds but I dont think its a huge factor. I think for a shove to be good you need him to fold roughly 25% of the time, so that cant be bad either. Clicking it back I dont know why but I dont like it.

I don't play deep all that often, but can someone explain why 6 betting KQ is good here? and are we 6betting with the intent to fold to 7 bet?

I suppose the main reason for 6 betting is because we are oop and we want the initiative?

On July 04 2012 19:53 patti wrote: I don't play deep all that often, but can someone explain why 6 betting KQ is good here? and are we 6betting with the intent to fold to 7 bet? I suppose the main reason for 6 betting is because we are oop and we want the initiative?

no one at any point said this was a good play, the discussion here is "as played what do we do"

On July 02 2012 19:08 PoorUser wrote: if you are calling pf and flop isnt turn a pretty easy get it in

Agreed. I'm shoving turn

On July 04 2012 21:28 TalentedTom wrote: Show nested quote + On July 04 2012 19:53 patti wrote: I don't play deep all that often, but can someone explain why 6 betting KQ is good here? and are we 6betting with the intent to fold to 7 bet? I suppose the main reason for 6 betting is because we are oop and we want the initiative? no one at any point said this was a good play, the discussion here is "as played what do we do"

actually someone suggested 6-betting was a good play which is what i assume he was talking about since there's no 6-bet in the actual hand

purely an as played spot. You cant pick your spots anymore, or you will just get raped on pokerstars. You have to combat aggression with aggression. I believe its a small -ev spot. That will def set up good meta.

i like folding pre. 6b looks better than a flat.
u said u dont think hes folding to a 6bet ever. i feel like that sometimes.
so fold and adjust, probably by playing a little tighter (as simple/dumb as that sounds)

edit:
i think about turn like this:
-case1:like to shove turn b/c it would be consistent with out flop line. we think hes wide blahblah.
-case2: if for some reason we called flop and turn despite thinking he had it, tank shoving river makes more sense than chking imo. he can make more mistakes w aggro hist? comments welcome

1 by far makes more sense to me but OP seems to want to play a lil 'what if'.

lol ... 200nl...talking about 6bet bluffing? rly? i think you guys gotta just game select better.

and... what pooruser said obv

On July 05 2012 14:08 handbanana21 wrote: purely an as played spot. You cant pick your spots anymore, or you will just get raped on pokerstars. You have to combat aggression with aggression. I believe its a small -ev spot. That will def set up good meta.

Or you could just play a standard abc game and get the regs to think you're trying to out-aggro them like most regs do anyway

On July 06 2012 17:44 TimDawg wrote: Show nested quote + On July 05 2012 14:08 handbanana21 wrote: purely an as played spot. You cant pick your spots anymore, or you will just get raped on pokerstars. You have to combat aggression with aggression. I believe its a small -ev spot. That will def set up good meta. Or you could just play a standard abc game and get the regs to think you're trying to out-aggro them like most regs do anyway

aand we have come full circle

On July 06 2012 17:44 TimDawg wrote: Show nested quote + On July 05 2012 14:08 handbanana21 wrote: purely an as played spot. You cant pick your spots anymore, or you will just get raped on pokerstars. You have to combat aggression with aggression. I believe its a small -ev spot. That will def set up good meta. Or you could just play a standard abc game and get the regs to think you're trying to out-aggro them like most regs do anyway

I dont know any of the top winners on stars that play abc. The table selecting abc style was fine in 2011, but the games have gotten significantly tougher since. If you dont earn an image, you just wont get paid off at 200nl+ stars.

On July 07 2012 13:47 handbanana21 wrote: Show nested quote + On July 06 2012 17:44 TimDawg wrote:   On July 05 2012 14:08 handbanana21 wrote: purely an as played spot. You cant pick your spots anymore, or you will just get raped on pokerstars. You have to combat aggression with aggression. I believe its a small -ev spot. That will def set up good meta. Or you could just play a standard abc game and get the regs to think you're trying to out-aggro them like most regs do anyway I dont know any of the top winners on stars that play abc. The table selecting abc style was fine in 2011, but the games have gotten significantly tougher since. If you dont earn an image, you just wont get paid off at 200nl+ stars.

i wish i knew how nanonokos style of using his image of never bluffing worked so well.

Fold pre. All in turn

Because of the bet sizing of the preflop and post flop action, this hand looks good.

If 6 betting pre might be good then folding pre is certainly terrible. I also feel you have to shove turn with that type of read.

On July 13 2012 14:08 NMcNasty wrote: If 6 betting pre might be good then folding pre is certainly terrible. I also feel you have to shove turn with that type of read.

Yea folding pre is never an option, I cold 4bet with this hand specifically to play back to a 5bet from either villain. I actually ended up getting reverse implied and villain had ac9c. But my main question was the turn. I wasnt sure if i was able to call for direct odds, and just c/f all brick rivers. Because i felt that if he had any piece of the board, he wasnt going to dump his hand. Which also raises the question. If we are playing for hand equity instead of fold equity on this turn... Should we always be leading rivers that improve our hand? Given that villain might check behind a fair amount of his range that isnt complete air.

you havent really said anything about the flop. it might help for you to write out your thought process on his range and how he'll play his hands and how c/c the flop in a 5b pot oop with just a gutshot vs his range can be good and then the rest of the answers should probably fall into place. seems like you just clicked buttons on flop tbh from what your asking

On July 16 2012 02:24 PoorUser wrote: you havent really said anything about the flop. it might help for you to write out your thought process on his range and how he'll play his hands and how c/c the flop in a 5b pot oop with just a gutshot vs his range can be good and then the rest of the answers should probably fall into place. seems like you just clicked buttons on flop tbh from what your asking

a flop call seems very standard to me since we are calling a 5bet. it can't be profitable to call 5bets then fold 70% of the time to a flop cbet. Imo, if we arn't calling this flop then we cant call a 5bet.


@handbanana. i think leading on rivers they will check behind can be a good idea. on a 10 i think it's very likely they will check back overpairs and jacks. The value of this depends on how often they 2 barrel.

it's Really player dependant for this sort of stuff tho, gotta go on feel and reads for what type of player they are. some will use the river clubs/T to bluff on with a range that is wider than their 2barrel for value then check back on a 10-range.

edit: from what i can see in the hand i would be c/c all the way on pretty much any river because just from the flop/turn sizing it looks like setting up 3 barrel bluffs in 4bet+pots is his style.

this is some very interesting stuff that i would like to do some analysis on but in middle of session atm, will revisit this tho.

On July 16 2012 02:24 PoorUser wrote: you havent really said anything about the flop. it might help for you to write out your thought process on his range and how he'll play his hands and how c/c the flop in a 5b pot oop with just a gutshot vs his range can be good and then the rest of the answers should probably fall into place. seems like you just clicked buttons on flop tbh from what your asking

I actually felt the flop was by far the easiest street to play. I really dont see any other play other than calling. I think c/r any value range on a board that dry is pretty meh. And given the psr I dont mind the flop going check check. , since i can bet turn shove river pretty effortlessly.

I think everyone would be surprised how solid these guys are at 1/2 on stars. You also have to consider. Alot of these guys played 5/10 and what not and had to drop down in stakes like everyone else. And Alot of the 2/4-3/6 regs just like me have to play every limit just to get like 20-24 decent games going late at night. So we arent talking about pushovers here.

thing is you guys have only really said that the 'games are tough and ppl are good, can't just fold' through all of those lines of text you've put down.

you haven't posted any sophisticated thought process ie range analysis

I think this is a common thing for players when they feel overwhelemed. but the leak is apparent to 3rd parties reading the thread.

like why should you continue in the hand on the flop? what if you got one of the (majority of) turns which don't improve your hand? why do you expect this specific villain to be on a bluff or not..