cops kill men with a crowbar *10 shots*

Dont know how many of you have seen this already, what a crazy world we are living in and the guys filming it even laugh... WTF !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=...e.com%2Fembed%2FbY5ioBvrYIg%3Frel%3D0


edit: for the ones interested link to the tl thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306001

Seemed to have a jagged edge? more like an axe? I might be wrong, felt the shooting was fine. Bloody idiot if you come out with a weapon, and cops are standing with guns pointing at you telling you to drop it, and instead you raise it, and pretend you're going to attack.

Maybe a little excessive, felt fine. And the guys laughing, felt a bit like "we're a bunch of friends, we laugh at stupid shit we wouldn't normally" and toward the end, almost like they felt "hmm, maybe I shouldn't have laughed this much".

But the guys were still pretty retarded, not making excusing for them, but didn't feel that bad.

So cops should have shot 3-4 shots I'd say, that'd be perfect.

And the guy filming should have done a "OHH FUCK" and a laugh right at the start, and then gotten serious, then It'd be perfect!

Quoting myself from the TL thread.

On January 25 2012 05:46 HaiVan wrote: Considering the circumstances i think this is justified.

Wow no didnt see this yet! crazy

did they tazer him at the beginning and he just seems to turn around and be like AND WHAT? how can a tazer to the face do nothing?

and that doesnt look like a crowbar to me its definitely got something on the end, looks like some kind of pick axe.

the guy was a retard or wanted to die. The cops could've done the job with 2-3 short on non-lethal parts of his body.

I agree with Mariuslol and Im gonna go over the top. Im glad the dude is dead. One less idiot off the planet.

Agree with marius too
the people filming are just retards.... prolly on drugs...

On January 25 2012 08:43 Critterer wrote: and that doesnt look like a crowbar to me its definitely got something on the end, looks like some kind of pick axe.

Yeah I think this is barely justified cuz there's a point on the end and can kill with one swing. I wonder if there's a chart or something for this sort of situation, if the guy was holding a baseball bat I feel this would be too much force.

Try and change the scenario, I heard them cops experience so much "bad shit" so their bond to eachother is pretty high.

Imagine the same scenario, but instead of the guy turning toward a cop, he turns against your girlfriend, mother, or brother, I just feel in my stomach I'd be so glad if a cop shot him dead like this!

On January 25 2012 10:18 NMcNasty wrote: Show nested quote + On January 25 2012 08:43 Critterer wrote: and that doesnt look like a crowbar to me its definitely got something on the end, looks like some kind of pick axe. Yeah I think this is barely justified cuz there's a point on the end and can kill with one swing. I wonder if there's a chart or something for this sort of situation, if the guy was holding a baseball bat I feel this would be too much force.

you can kill someone with a baseball bat...
thing is the cop cant shot him if hes too close to the other cop so obv shooting would have been fine imo
i think anyone that attack a cops deserve to be shot
its like people saying they are carrying a bomb at the airport... you just dont do that

+ he doesnt know the guy dont have a knife or something in his pocket,

Kinda middle of the road. Dude had a pick ax and was clearly an idiot, so it's hard to feel bad for him. Also the cops partner was slightly in danger, so shooting him was justified.

At the same time obviously I don't think he reacted optimally to the situation. After the first shot the guy starts falling backwards away from the officers, so its pretty damn obvious the following 9 or so shots are unnecessary, I dunno I guess you can't expect all cops to react optimally in a situation where their partner and probably friends life is in danger, so you can't really freak out about him shooting to much.

So while I think the cop overreacted, I don't think he should be reprimanded or anything.

Curious to see the victims record & toxicology report.

On January 25 2012 11:12 HeRoS)eNGagE wrote: Show nested quote + On January 25 2012 10:18 NMcNasty wrote:   On January 25 2012 08:43 Critterer wrote: and that doesnt look like a crowbar to me its definitely got something on the end, looks like some kind of pick axe. Yeah I think this is barely justified cuz there's a point on the end and can kill with one swing. I wonder if there's a chart or something for this sort of situation, if the guy was holding a baseball bat I feel this would be too much force. you can kill someone with a baseball bat...

You can kill someone with a brick, rock, or even fists. Someone just putting up their fists doesn't deserve to die so u gotta draw the line somewhere. IMO a bat is very hard to kill someone with in one swing. Opponent can easily dodge or block and when you hit it has to be directly to the head and with plenty force.

This is sick.

Guy seemed emotionally out of control and although an idiot I can't help but feel some small amount of compassion for him. I don't know why the cops were so close to him considering they have ranged weapons. I wish they just kept their distance as this is was a tragic result.

I don't blame the cops, but I wish there was a way to manage this sort of escalation. Like even shooting him with animal tranquilizers or setting the dog on him.

Feel sort of dumb even sharing my thoughts (as they are not worth shit) on such a tragic event.

edit: guys filming this video and laughing should just both go kill themselves, i don't understand how anyone can find humor in a lost life, especially if it's in front of you. blows my mind how desensitized we have all become though.

the tazer didnt even affect him obviously on a crazy bender. Maybe even suicide by cop pretty stupid. He was two seconds away from a well placed hit to the head from killing the cop so justified shot. However seems the guy who got rushed fired off 6 rounds after he was already down lol!

why are you "lol!" about a guy getting shot up after already being shot up

wow wtf was that guy doing? did he think he could just waltz out of there and ignore the cops then bat away a tazer and keep walking? then he threatened to swing at the cop? what an idiot

The most troubling this in this video is the stupid, ignorant ghetto retards laughing after someone getting shot. "Dayummm he got murked!" Gawd why are fucking kids so fucking stupid these days...

Anyways the cops should have just stayed further away since the villain was clearly holding out his weapon out in the open. The stupid cops put themselves in range of being in danger, should have just released the hounds. The dumb criminal put his own life at risk, and with those sloppy cops he sure had shitty odds.

when a guy with a gun tells you to back the fuck off...you do it...or you face the consequences of a man pointing a loaded gun at you ;o

pretty simple. Although the guy was def not in a correct state of mind for sure.

I figured I would be like, what a dumb ass, got what he deserves. But in all honesty, wtf! Why did they shoot him 5 more times after shooting him 5 times, which clearly worked?

maybe they didn't want to risk one guy getting blamed for the kill shot.

Edit: don't remember if it was just one guy emptying his clip in the end.

crap, am I the only one who read the thread title as some cops beat a guy to death with a crowbar by hitting him 10 times? That woulda been a lot more interesting -.-

On January 25 2012 08:43 Critterer wrote: Wow no didnt see this yet! crazy did they tazer him at the beginning and he just seems to turn around and be like AND WHAT? how can a tazer to the face do nothing? and that doesnt look like a crowbar to me its definitely got something on the end, looks like some kind of pick axe.

Tasers don't always work. There are 2 probes on a taser and both have to connect with the suspect to complete the circuit. When they are wearing baggy clothes especially it makes it harder for the taser to connect cleanly so it won't work as intended. I think this is most likely what happened instead of the other popular theory that he was so drugged up that he went Hulk mode and ripped the taser off while being shocked.

Anyway, I think people are being results-oriented by saying the cops should have chosen a different non-lethal route like using animal tranquilizers or sicking the K9 on him. The taser is the best non-lethal weapon they have for subduing a suspect and the only reason you'd say not to use it is because you're using hindsight and you saw that it didn't work.

title should be "1 man, 1 crowbar"

Speaking of title, I expected this thread to be about a cop killing several men with the use of a crowbar.

My faith in humanity has been restored after most people basically saying "gotta defend yourself, nothing wrong on extra shots because you gotta be sure and can't run any risk (as cop)".

Atl tl half poster where "wtf what an animal aim to the legs" or "3 shots is kinda justified 10 shots is brutal"

drugs dont induce monster strenght rampages actually, a taser that connects properly will inmobilize a man no matter what or how many drugs he has in his bloodstream.

Also its ridiculous to think 10 shots are fine, a cop has to think about protecting himself and others while using the minimum force possible, so its understandable if the cop didnt want to wrestle with a guy with a crowbar but its not justified to empty his clip on his ass, a warning shot, shooting to non lethal zones etc, since when you need 10 shots from a supposedly trained marksman are needed to stop somebody with no guns.

Whatever to happened shouting "drop your weapon and put your hands up" from like 15 feet? I feel they way they handled it was like how I (an untrained noob with no gun experience) would handle the situation. you've got a dog and 4 guys with weapons vs 1 guy with a pickaxe

On January 25 2012 21:33 TekxY wrote: I think the issue here is that the cops were too close even when the man has a visible weapon on his hand, I don't know why they get so close, If the guy was so intoxicated or something, you shouldn't expect that cops commands will work properly so if they don't have teasers or stuff like that, worst case scenario should be, cops telling him to put the weapon down and if he keeps ignoring just a shot to the leg from a proper distance. Obviously given the cops were so close and he swing the pick axe or w/e it is, then yea the other cop reacts shooting but that could be avoided.

Tasers have a pretty limited range, and the farther away you are the more likely you are to miss. Also, this wasn't a standoff. The suspect was just inside the restaurant smashing windows. Why give him some space so that he can run off and attack someone or car jack somebody? Given the guy's erratic behavior he was clearly a threat to the general public and should have been subdued as soon as possible.

edit: forgot that they could sick the dog on him if he tried to run

Not against killing him but clearly they unknowingly put themselves in a position to do exactly that. I dont think they intended to kill the guy at all since they were obviously caught off guard when the guy turned on one of the cops. wtf was that dog for?

It was a terrible idea to fire a gun 10 times with members of the public in the area. If the guy had been a few meters forward the guys in the car would have been in the line of fire.

On January 25 2012 20:52 Baalim wrote: drugs dont induce monster strenght rampages actually, a taser that connects properly will inmobilize a man no matter what or how many drugs he has in his bloodstream. Also its ridiculous to think 10 shots are fine, a cop has to think about protecting himself and others while using the minimum force possible, so its understandable if the cop didnt want to wrestle with a guy with a crowbar but its not justified to empty his clip on his ass, a warning shot, shooting to non lethal zones etc, since when you need 10 shots from a supposedly trained marksman are needed to stop somebody with no guns.

Cops shoot to kill, not warning shots or non-lethal zones or shoot the weapon out of the suspects hands. This isn't Hollywood. Whether the 2nd cop needed to unload 5 more into the guy after hes already been shot 5 times point-blank is debatable, and hell if you want, you can even debate the use of deadly force here if indeed its clearly a crowbar and the cops can see that, but once the guns are out, its shoot to kill.

Dead men tell no lies.

On January 25 2012 20:52 Baalim wrote: drugs dont induce monster strenght rampages actually, a taser that connects properly will inmobilize a man no matter what or how many drugs he has in his bloodstream. Also its ridiculous to think 10 shots are fine, a cop has to think about protecting himself and others while using the minimum force possible, so its understandable if the cop didnt want to wrestle with a guy with a crowbar but its not justified to empty his clip on his ass, a warning shot, shooting to non lethal zones etc, since when you need 10 shots from a supposedly trained marksman are needed to stop somebody with no guns.

I've heard from a reliable person about a police report where a guy on PCP was causing some kinda trouble...cops go to check it out and he's on a rampage...The drugged out guy took 10 shots to the chest while attacking one of the officers and managed to strangle one to death while the other reloaded and finally finished him off with a shot directly to the heart + brain....

On January 26 2012 13:42 YoMeR wrote: Show nested quote + On January 25 2012 20:52 Baalim wrote: drugs dont induce monster strenght rampages actually, a taser that connects properly will inmobilize a man no matter what or how many drugs he has in his bloodstream. Also its ridiculous to think 10 shots are fine, a cop has to think about protecting himself and others while using the minimum force possible, so its understandable if the cop didnt want to wrestle with a guy with a crowbar but its not justified to empty his clip on his ass, a warning shot, shooting to non lethal zones etc, since when you need 10 shots from a supposedly trained marksman are needed to stop somebody with no guns. I've heard from a reliable person about a police report where a guy on PCP was causing some kinda trouble...cops go to check it out and he's on a rampage...The drugged out guy took 10 shots to the chest while attacking one of the officers and managed to strangle one to death while the other reloaded and finally finished him off with a shot directly to the heart + brain....

Was he a zombie?

On January 26 2012 13:42 YoMeR wrote: Show nested quote + On January 25 2012 20:52 Baalim wrote: drugs dont induce monster strenght rampages actually, a taser that connects properly will inmobilize a man no matter what or how many drugs he has in his bloodstream. Also its ridiculous to think 10 shots are fine, a cop has to think about protecting himself and others while using the minimum force possible, so its understandable if the cop didnt want to wrestle with a guy with a crowbar but its not justified to empty his clip on his ass, a warning shot, shooting to non lethal zones etc, since when you need 10 shots from a supposedly trained marksman are needed to stop somebody with no guns. I've heard from a reliable person about a police report where a guy on PCP was causing some kinda trouble...cops go to check it out and he's on a rampage...The drugged out guy took 10 shots to the chest while attacking one of the officers and managed to strangle one to death while the other reloaded and finally finished him off with a shot directly to the heart + brain....

your reliable person is an idiot, drugs dont do that plus for example it is physically impossible for anybody to overcome a taser that connects properly, Adrenaline is by far the chemical to do that kind of stuff and you are already soaking in it when you get in such an stressful situation

On January 26 2012 02:22 gawdawaful wrote: Show nested quote + On January 25 2012 20:52 Baalim wrote: drugs dont induce monster strenght rampages actually, a taser that connects properly will inmobilize a man no matter what or how many drugs he has in his bloodstream. Also its ridiculous to think 10 shots are fine, a cop has to think about protecting himself and others while using the minimum force possible, so its understandable if the cop didnt want to wrestle with a guy with a crowbar but its not justified to empty his clip on his ass, a warning shot, shooting to non lethal zones etc, since when you need 10 shots from a supposedly trained marksman are needed to stop somebody with no guns. Cops shoot to kill, not warning shots or non-lethal zones or shoot the weapon out of the suspects hands. This isn't Hollywood. Whether the 2nd cop needed to unload 5 more into the guy after hes already been shot 5 times point-blank is debatable, and hell if you want, you can even debate the use of deadly force here if indeed its clearly a crowbar and the cops can see that, but once the guns are out, its shoot to kill.

Are you taking this from somewhere? i mean are they instructed to always shoot to kill?

If this is true, its unquestiable a retarded procedure, shooting only to kill is ridiculous.

If the other cop needed to unload 5 more rounds is not questionable, a guy with a fucking crowboard shot 5 times is in no way a real threat to a trained cop.

It's really hard to judge these situations when you're not in the heat of the moment imo. Obv from the outside it looks like shooting 10 times is crazy but I'd imagine in the actual situation even the cops aren't in total mental/emotional control and realistically are probably very scared themselves.

I'm just glad nobody got hit by strays/missed shots.

On January 26 2012 18:24 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On January 26 2012 13:42 YoMeR wrote:   On January 25 2012 20:52 Baalim wrote: drugs dont induce monster strenght rampages actually, a taser that connects properly will inmobilize a man no matter what or how many drugs he has in his bloodstream. Also its ridiculous to think 10 shots are fine, a cop has to think about protecting himself and others while using the minimum force possible, so its understandable if the cop didnt want to wrestle with a guy with a crowbar but its not justified to empty his clip on his ass, a warning shot, shooting to non lethal zones etc, since when you need 10 shots from a supposedly trained marksman are needed to stop somebody with no guns. I've heard from a reliable person about a police report where a guy on PCP was causing some kinda trouble...cops go to check it out and he's on a rampage...The drugged out guy took 10 shots to the chest while attacking one of the officers and managed to strangle one to death while the other reloaded and finally finished him off with a shot directly to the heart + brain.... your reliable person is an idiot, drugs dont do that plus for example it is physically impossible for anybody to overcome a taser that connects properly, Adrenaline is by far the chemical to do that kind of stuff and you are already soaking in it when you get in such an stressful situation

skip to 2 mins

Look, it's simple. If you lunge at a cop with a large, clearly lethal weapon when surrounded by other cops with guns pointed at you, you deserve everything that happens as a result. Full clip.

On January 27 2012 00:15 byrnesam wrote: Show nested quote + On January 26 2012 18:24 Baalim wrote:   On January 26 2012 13:42 YoMeR wrote:   On January 25 2012 20:52 Baalim wrote: drugs dont induce monster strenght rampages actually, a taser that connects properly will inmobilize a man no matter what or how many drugs he has in his bloodstream. Also its ridiculous to think 10 shots are fine, a cop has to think about protecting himself and others while using the minimum force possible, so its understandable if the cop didnt want to wrestle with a guy with a crowbar but its not justified to empty his clip on his ass, a warning shot, shooting to non lethal zones etc, since when you need 10 shots from a supposedly trained marksman are needed to stop somebody with no guns. I've heard from a reliable person about a police report where a guy on PCP was causing some kinda trouble...cops go to check it out and he's on a rampage...The drugged out guy took 10 shots to the chest while attacking one of the officers and managed to strangle one to death while the other reloaded and finally finished him off with a shot directly to the heart + brain.... your reliable person is an idiot, drugs dont do that plus for example it is physically impossible for anybody to overcome a taser that connects properly, Adrenaline is by far the chemical to do that kind of stuff and you are already soaking in it when you get in such an stressful situation skip to 2 mins

Obviously the taser didnt make proper contact with him, he isnt overpowering shit

On January 27 2012 03:34 offsuit wrote: Look, it's simple. If you lunge at a cop with a large, clearly lethal weapon when surrounded by other cops with guns pointed at you, you deserve everything that happens as a result. Full clip.

So mentally ill people or ppl having psicotic breakdowns deserve to die, no chance to get shot no the leg or tased... death is what they deserve.

I've heard the same stories about guys on PCP from so many different cops that I am pretty sure they are all repeating the same bullshit stories that are just urban legens that they've heard. I think they are passed down during their training. My favorite one is the guy on PCP that jumps out of a tree and breaks both of his ankles and he runs away from the cops on his shins with his feet flopping around.

On January 27 2012 04:05 blackjacki2 wrote: I've heard the same stories about guys on PCP from so many different cops that I am pretty sure they are all repeating the same bullshit stories that are just urban legens that they've heard. I think they are passed down during their training. My favorite one is the guy on PCP that jumps out of a tree and breaks both of his ankles and he runs away from the cops on his shins with his feet flopping around.

loooooooool

On January 27 2012 04:03 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2012 03:34 offsuit wrote: Look, it's simple. If you lunge at a cop with a large, clearly lethal weapon when surrounded by other cops with guns pointed at you, you deserve everything that happens as a result. Full clip. So mentally ill people or ppl having psicotic breakdowns deserve to die, no chance to get shot no the leg or tased... death is what they deserve.

If you got lunged at by a mentally ill person with a weapon, which would you rather your partner did?

remember that you have about 3 seconds to react, youre unarmed at that moment and the offender is swinging distance from your face.

On January 27 2012 06:28 byrnesam wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2012 04:03 Baalim wrote:   On January 27 2012 03:34 offsuit wrote: Look, it's simple. If you lunge at a cop with a large, clearly lethal weapon when surrounded by other cops with guns pointed at you, you deserve everything that happens as a result. Full clip. So mentally ill people or ppl having psicotic breakdowns deserve to die, no chance to get shot no the leg or tased... death is what they deserve. If you got lunged at by a mentally ill person with a weapon, which would you rather your partner did? remember that you have about 3 seconds to react, youre unarmed at that moment and the offender is swinging distance from your face.

What i would want in a moment of panic and fearing for my life is absolutely irrelevant to what is right and wrong.

Cops should always try to use minimal force while maintaining their safety, we could argue about opening fire, or even about shooting to the legs or body, but there should be no discussion that 10 shots are way more than needed to stop a man with a crowbar.

Im sorry but you cant use the "better safe than sorry" when you are dealing with human lives

On January 26 2012 18:34 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On January 26 2012 02:22 gawdawaful wrote:   On January 25 2012 20:52 Baalim wrote: drugs dont induce monster strenght rampages actually, a taser that connects properly will inmobilize a man no matter what or how many drugs he has in his bloodstream. Also its ridiculous to think 10 shots are fine, a cop has to think about protecting himself and others while using the minimum force possible, so its understandable if the cop didnt want to wrestle with a guy with a crowbar but its not justified to empty his clip on his ass, a warning shot, shooting to non lethal zones etc, since when you need 10 shots from a supposedly trained marksman are needed to stop somebody with no guns. Cops shoot to kill, not warning shots or non-lethal zones or shoot the weapon out of the suspects hands. This isn't Hollywood. Whether the 2nd cop needed to unload 5 more into the guy after hes already been shot 5 times point-blank is debatable, and hell if you want, you can even debate the use of deadly force here if indeed its clearly a crowbar and the cops can see that, but once the guns are out, its shoot to kill. Are you taking this from somewhere? i mean are they instructed to always shoot to kill? If this is true, its unquestiable a retarded procedure, shooting only to kill is ridiculous. If the other cop needed to unload 5 more rounds is not questionable, a guy with a fucking crowboard shot 5 times is in no way a real threat to a trained cop.

Courses on policing. Pretty sure its uniform practice by all police officers. Gun is last resort and generally speaking police officers use the +1 rule (or something to that extent) in that you use the force one above the suspect's weapons perceived damage. I dont know off hand what weapon is deemed what and what the appropriate response weapon should be in this situation, but I'm 90% sure all cops are trained to shoot for the chest.
And no, it is not a retarded procedure by any means. In fact its probably the only acceptable procedure.

edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_force
Dunno if wikipedia is considered the best source of info on this subject, but the paragraph on deadly force pretty much sums it up. The suspect in this case made a threatening gesture with a weapon of some sort in his hand towards the officer. He gets shot. Pretty ABC

he could've easily shot the other cops on the other side the way he was pumping out the rounds from his pistol. again, wtf was up with the dog? him holding the dog while having his pistol drawn/pointed was the reason he seemed to lose control in the first place.

im pretty happy norwegian police is unarmed. to be fair, this is far from the worst case of abusive cop behavior i've seen/heard of, but it's obviously excessive. It's like, somewhere down the line, something went really wrong when people have accepted that cops, who are employed by a government to protect its citizens, are considered "people who are allowed to kill you if you behave in a way that they deem threatening" - e.g. "he was reaching for what I thought was a gun".

obviously, it's not just the fault of the police; if they are regularly put in situations where they might encounter hostile people who might carry concealed weapons, it's inevitable that they sometimes screw up because well, they don't want to risk being shot either, and the way guns function is that you gotta make sure you pull the trigger first. the whole issue is rather one of a cemented us-vs-them mentality formed through decades of way-too-harsh punishment escalating the lenghts people are willing to go to to avoid jail, combined with guns being so frequent that you can't assume someone isn't carrying. it's fucked up, and it'll take decades to fix even if policy-makers make the correct decisions, but the first thing that needs to happen is a complete revamping of the american penal system where the desire to punish is swapped with the desire to rehabilitate. Of course, that's also impossible while the population at large seem indifferent to prison-rape, favour capital punishment, and don't seem to have a problem with having the by far highest incarceration rate in the world.

the incarceration rate is so ridiculous btw; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

I mean fair enough, usa isnt TOWERING above countries like say, rwanda. but going down the list, the first actually comparable country, is UK, found in 87th place, with 156 per 100k as opposed to the 743 per 100k found in usa.

Something I find fucking unbelievable is that police are held to zero standards based on their jobs 'harsh requirements for the need of quick reactions in stressful situations'.

Now look at doctors/surgeons. They deal with endless fucking stress/crazy shit and if they make 1 mistake OR just in respect to the person dying because this isn't exact science, they can and are sued to oblivion.

Cops are almost always let free/found within reason, Doctors pay $5k or more a month for malpractice insurance.

The problem isn't that cops are poor at their job, it's that the shit cops don't get worked out of the system fast enough because the cities/states/DA/internal protect them

On January 27 2012 04:03 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2012 03:34 offsuit wrote: Look, it's simple. If you lunge at a cop with a large, clearly lethal weapon when surrounded by other cops with guns pointed at you, you deserve everything that happens as a result. Full clip. So mentally ill people or ppl having psicotic breakdowns deserve to die, no chance to get shot no the leg or tased... death is what they deserve.

You be a 135 pound female officer in the street with a TASER and a gun,
having a mentally ill person or a psychotic one charging at you with something that can kill you
in one swing - tell me why the hell that you shouldn't or wouldn't pick up your weapon and
fire every single bullet in your clip in an as deadly manner as you possibly can at that person?

Have fun trying to hit a lone arm with your gun or risking missing that one shot you have with your TASER.

On January 27 2012 07:27 Baalim wrote: Cops should always try to use minimal force while maintaining their safety, we could argue about opening fire, or even about shooting to the legs or body, but there should be no discussion that 10 shots are way more than needed to stop a man with a crowbar.

You would be amazed what people can still do with bullets in their arms.
You would be amazed at how hard it is to truly know if you're hitting the target or not.
Loljk you would be dead....

+ Show Spoiler + [Edit]

Shooting in itself was 'justified'.


The actual problem here is the tasercops retardedly laidback attitude and ridiculous rookie mistake. Speculating on what could have happened if he wasn't a moron is pointless though.

Cops aren't supposed to shoot people unless their lives are in danger, and if their lives are in danger they shouldn't be aiming for somebody's leg. I can't imagine any situation where it would be justified for a cop to just shoot somebody in the knee.

+ Show Spoiler +

On January 27 2012 07:27 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2012 06:28 byrnesam wrote:   On January 27 2012 04:03 Baalim wrote:   On January 27 2012 03:34 offsuit wrote: Look, it's simple. If you lunge at a cop with a large, clearly lethal weapon when surrounded by other cops with guns pointed at you, you deserve everything that happens as a result. Full clip. So mentally ill people or ppl having psicotic breakdowns deserve to die, no chance to get shot no the leg or tased... death is what they deserve. If you got lunged at by a mentally ill person with a weapon, which would you rather your partner did? remember that you have about 3 seconds to react, youre unarmed at that moment and the offender is swinging distance from your face. What i would want in a moment of panic and fearing for my life is absolutely irrelevant to what is right and wrong. Cops should always try to use minimal force while maintaining their safety, we could argue about opening fire, or even about shooting to the legs or body, but there should be no discussion that 10 shots are way more than needed to stop a man with a crowbar. Im sorry but you cant use the "better safe than sorry" when you are dealing with human lives

I think the "better safe than sorry" is a perfectly correct assumption. I also think the guy firing the gun is the only one doing the right thing, as the other guy retardedly put himself in melee range of the offender and basically forced his partner to fire.

Edit: In the cops shoes I would definetately take the "better safe than sorry route", wouldn't you do the same?

shoot them in the leg if they're running away. coming at you with a deadly weapon, threatening your survival? bye bye crazy person

@ 3 minute mark

On January 27 2012 07:27 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2012 06:28 byrnesam wrote:   On January 27 2012 04:03 Baalim wrote:   On January 27 2012 03:34 offsuit wrote: Look, it's simple. If you lunge at a cop with a large, clearly lethal weapon when surrounded by other cops with guns pointed at you, you deserve everything that happens as a result. Full clip. So mentally ill people or ppl having psicotic breakdowns deserve to die, no chance to get shot no the leg or tased... death is what they deserve. If you got lunged at by a mentally ill person with a weapon, which would you rather your partner did? remember that you have about 3 seconds to react, youre unarmed at that moment and the offender is swinging distance from your face. What i would want in a moment of panic and fearing for my life is absolutely irrelevant to what is right and wrong. Cops should always try to use minimal force while maintaining their safety, we could argue about opening fire, or even about shooting to the legs or body, but there should be no discussion that 10 shots are way more than needed to stop a man with a crowbar. Im sorry but you cant use the "better safe than sorry" when you are dealing with human lives

I just think violent resistance with a potentially deadly weapon and clear intent is not okay. Like, if he didn't have what can only be construed as a weapon in a public location I would agree. If he wasn't resisting and didn't lunge at the cop, I would agree.

The amount of shots may have been excessive. Then again, so might lunging at a cop with a pipe bender in a public location with intent to harm.

there is no "may" its 10 fucking shots dude... if you were a civilian and a burglar broke into your house and you shot him 10 times believe me that you would be in serious trouble in a jury trying to justify 10 shots, a trained cop should be way more accountable about excessive use of force than a civilian

Shoot to kill is 100% standard across departments.

I've seen someone get shot in the leg and still put up a decent fight. Whether this policy is justified or not is obviously a matter of opinion. Intuitively it seems barbaric and wrong but I think there are likely many factors that need to be taken into consideration that aren't obvious to the layman.

The most retarded thing is the proximity of the cops to the guy with the crowbar. why so close? if crowbar is life threatening, why get close to him? agree with pretty much everything baal saying.
Also i agree, shooting in the leg or arm is very hard and if you're going to shoot, shoot to kill. What the problem to me is, why the need to shoot in the first place.

On January 29 2012 15:42 uiCk wrote: The most retarded thing is the proximity of the cops to the guy with the crowbar. why so close? if crowbar is life threatening, why get close to him?

I'm not clear on what you're suggesting the cops should have done here.

1st. Cop who tasered, was not paying attention to her distance with suspect, was checking his belt (for what ? who cares) while being 1 meter away from the guy.
2nd. The guy is already walking, obviously not threatened by the prospect of getting shot, so why so close to him? What did they think the suspect was going to do Walking away from the place?

I would of backed off and asses the situation and not expect that threatening someone with a gun is going to make them respect your authority.
The whole issue revolves of the BS that guns have some kind of authoritative power. The only thing they do is kill, and make people kill each other for the better lack of wanting to understand, rationalize and asses situations that are to complicated for some to rationalize.


These things do happen, and will happen, but stating that it was the only option, too shoot him, shows obviously lack in people in concern to using their head. That and peoples willingness to accept instinct over reason.

My beef is with the bigger picture, i don't really judge the cops of doing what they did really, i'm really not that surprised given the context, which is living in a heavy gun consumption society.

Indeed there is precedent saying this wont fly if youre a civilian http://oklahoma-criminal-defense.com/...e-for-pharmacist-who-shot-okc-robber/

On January 29 2012 16:56 Roald wrote: Indeed there is precedent saying this wont fly if youre a civilian http://oklahoma-criminal-defense.com/...e-for-pharmacist-who-shot-okc-robber/

that makes sense to me, and same should be applied to coppers. Just like it's fucking retarded that the police body encourages directly or indirectly, high speed chases in the US, which usually end up resulting in more damage done after the chase then before.

uiCk the guy is dangerous and presents a threat to all of the people hanging around in the area. They are trying to subdue him, keeping distance is not an option. The non-shooting cop was probably reaching for pepper spray or handcuffs and would have tackled and handcuffed the guy if he had not made an aggressive move. And that is not a crowbar.

RaSZi everything you post in this forum gets progressively more stupid.

On January 29 2012 16:56 Roald wrote: Indeed there is precedent saying this wont fly if youre a civilian http://oklahoma-criminal-defense.com/...e-for-pharmacist-who-shot-okc-robber/

Very different situation. The pharmacist there returned to shoot the suspect some more. Here we have all the shots being fired in less than 3 seconds. The pharmacist didn't get in trouble for the number of shots he fired, he got in trouble for having 2 separate shooting instances, which is another problem with advocating for cops to shoot him in the leg and then re-evalulate or shoot him only a couple of times and re-evaluate. They have to justify both shootings instead of only the one.

Yea sorry, there are different ways to deal with situations/ Keeping distance is an option, and making sure to clear the environment so culprit is not putting anyone else in danger is priority. Shooting the guy is just quick way of doing just that, and to some it is genius, because it's most effective way of avoiding anyone else to get hurt. the reason that is accepted, is that you accept that the culprit doesn't deserve his life.
But i'm not going to make those types of decisions, on who deserves life or not, especially on the assumption that someone else would of died in the culprits hands.

On January 29 2012 15:07 Roald wrote: Shoot to kill is 100% standard across departments. I've seen someone get shot in the leg and still put up a decent fight. Whether this policy is justified or not is obviously a matter of opinion. Intuitively it seems barbaric and wrong but I think there are likely many factors that need to be taken into consideration that aren't obvious to the layman.

^ this

they are trained to shoot to kill, nothing in between. I would have done the exact same thing in this situation.

Also ask anyone with a solid knowledge of hand guns and they'll tell you that getting shot in the leg with a 9mm - .45 will not be sufficient to put someone down.

surprised by a lot of the comments. How effective can the police be if they stayed further away? If you're standing off, here's no way to disarm apprehend him unless he complies, and clearly he was not going to comply. At some point you have to move in and put the cuffs on his ass.

He swung at the officer in clearly a threatening stance, so partner clipping him is how it goes. The other guy dumping a few rounds on the guy after he's on the ground shot five times is another story. That is pure uncontrolled pissed off cop. But it will be hard to press anything against him, maybe a reprimand at worse.

Yes cops shoot to kill, wounding is a liability.. The woulda shoulda coulda stops at "the suspect coulda woulda shoulda simply complied."

he'd be alive today if he had, and these cops wouldn't be in some viral video being second guessed for protecting themselves and each other.

On January 29 2012 16:11 uiCk wrote: I would of backed off and asses the situation and not expect that threatening someone with a gun is going to make them respect your authority.

there are members of the public all over the area.
what if he got into a car?

how is this justified in any way ?

They are professionals right ? They should have kept more distance and if the guy just tries to walk off, shoot him in the legs, problem solved.

These men should be fired, people like that shouldn't be carrying guns around.

If you are going to give a man a gun and the authority to use it, better make sure that man is a Fucking Professional.

And people wonder why cops get a bad rep.

On January 29 2012 19:28 TheTrees wrote: Also ask anyone with a solid knowledge of hand guns and they'll tell you that getting shot in the leg with a 9mm - .45 will not be sufficient to put someone down.

This is nothing short of bullshit. Please stay on the internet and don't become a cop thankyouverymuch.

On January 29 2012 19:53 curtinsea wrote: surprised by a lot of the comments. How effective can the police be if they stayed further away? If you're standing off, here's no way to disarm apprehend him unless he complies, and clearly he was not going to comply. At some point you have to move in and put the cuffs on his ass.

At that point you will hopefully not fumble with your equipment WHILE LOOKING INTO THE MOTHERFUCKING GROUND.

On February 01 2012 10:32 brambolius wrote: Show nested quote + On January 29 2012 19:28 TheTrees wrote: Also ask anyone with a solid knowledge of hand guns and they'll tell you that getting shot in the leg with a 9mm - .45 will not be sufficient to put someone down. This is nothing short of bullshit. Please stay on the internet and don't become a cop thankyouverymuch.

wow i totally missed that... ROFL its not sufficient a fucking .45cal gunshot to the legs to stop somebody? a .45cal is massive, what does it take then, an RPG to the leg?

On January 29 2012 04:31 byrnesam wrote: @ 3 minute mark

The fact that some guy took a couple of shots to the chest and he was still semi-functional for an instant doesnt justify shooting a guy with a crowbar 10 times, tell me, do you think the guy with a crowbar is a serious threat to anybody after lets say 5 shots? do you think he can still run to you and hit you in the face? srsly

On February 01 2012 10:32 brambolius wrote: Show nested quote + On January 29 2012 19:28 TheTrees wrote: Also ask anyone with a solid knowledge of hand guns and they'll tell you that getting shot in the leg with a 9mm - .45 will not be sufficient to put someone down. This is nothing short of bullshit. Please stay on the internet and don't become a cop thankyouverymuch.

Guessing you've never been in the military/know anyone in the military? Have you ever seen anyone cracked out of their mind? I'm guessing no, thankyouverymuch.

Shoot to kill, especially when your life is in danger.

you guys do know that here in the states shooting someone in the leg can be considered "cruel and unusual" in the court system...you usually get less shit for blasting someone in the chest than in the leg ;o

This is usually the reason why cops will use "deadly" force rather than "be humane and shoot him in the leg" because you can actually get into neck deep into law trouble by shooting even a criminal attempting to kill you in the leg/arm etc.

any criminal lawyer that can confirm that? sounds very unlikely.


Anyway the point is not where they aimed the shots but the whole situation, why did they fire live ammo to some guy holding a short range not very dangerous weapon, and more importantly why in the hell they shot him 10 times.

When they need 10 bullets to stop a man with a crowbar the police is either inept or immoral, choose at least one.

Obviously ten shots is a little excessive, but then again I think it's easy for us to sit back and judge what should have happened. They're trained professionals (in most cases) but i'm sure none of them have been in a situation quite like that.

Do I believe the use of lethal force was justified? Yes...

On February 01 2012 14:53 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On January 29 2012 04:31 byrnesam wrote: @ 3 minute mark The fact that some guy took a couple of shots to the chest and he was still semi-functional for an instant doesnt justify shooting a guy with a crowbar 10 times, tell me, do you think the guy with a crowbar is a serious threat to anybody after lets say 5 shots? do you think he can still run to you and hit you in the face? srsly

I dont even know what youre talking about anymore, i really dont.

Almost every other post in this thread is someone posting some sort of link to evidence for the reason the police acted the way they did in response to one of youre posts, then you just adjust your point of view slightly to disagree with how the situation played out.

Shooting a guy 5 times in the chest is ok, but 10 isnt.

On February 01 2012 14:53 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On January 29 2012 04:31 byrnesam wrote: @ 3 minute mark The fact that some guy took a couple of shots to the chest and he was still semi-functional for an instant doesnt justify shooting a guy with a crowbar 10 times, tell me, do you think the guy with a crowbar is a serious threat to anybody after lets say 5 shots? do you think he can still run to you and hit you in the face? srsly

and to clarify

"semi funtional for an instant" is not the same as getting up.

dont twist things and phrase them in a way to make it look like the account OF THE GUY WHO SHOT SOMEONE TWICE AND WATCHED THEM GET UP has less credit than whatever youre going on about.

YES he obviously is still a threat as long as hes alive. He could easily have a gun on him. If he did, and he fired a shot into the cops face as he lay dieing on the ground, i bet youd be singing about how retarded the cops are for not getting off a kill shot on the guy.

YOU CAN'T SHOOT SOMEONE WITH A CROWBAR LOL.

On January 26 2012 05:21 TheHuHu3 wrote: Dead men tell no lies.

fkn huhu expert troll

Dead men tell no TALES

On February 02 2012 02:55 byrnesam wrote: Show nested quote + On February 01 2012 14:53 Baalim wrote:   On January 29 2012 04:31 byrnesam wrote: @ 3 minute mark The fact that some guy took a couple of shots to the chest and he was still semi-functional for an instant doesnt justify shooting a guy with a crowbar 10 times, tell me, do you think the guy with a crowbar is a serious threat to anybody after lets say 5 shots? do you think he can still run to you and hit you in the face? srsly I dont even know what youre talking about anymore, i really dont. Almost every other post in this thread is someone posting some sort of link to evidence for the reason the police acted the way they did in response to one of youre posts, then you just adjust your point of view slightly to disagree with how the situation played out. Shooting a guy 5 times in the chest is ok, but 10 isnt.

What fucking link to evidence? your video of some gangster saying that some guy got up after he got shot with a 9mm in the chest? oh yeah that totally justifies shooting 10 times a guy with a fucking crowbar.

If the guy was wielding a gun then obviously you shoot him to death to avoid him even lifting an arm, if you shot a guy a guy a couple of times with a crowbar you dont give a fuck if he crawls back on his feet, he is in no way a deadly threat.

I have never switched my angle, ive always maintained that minimal force should always be applied, tasering unarmed old ladies or teen girls = not ok.... shooting 10 times to a guy with a crowbar = not ok, in what way im changing my stance?

What is the dog for? First 5 shots were justified, the next 5 were clearly unnecessary as the guy turned away from them, his "crowbar" wasn't a threat anymore and he was about to collapse