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edzwoo   United States. Jan 02 2012 13:31. Posts 5911

These forums are getting a bit quiet so I'll just post a casual hand.

Submitted by : edzwoo

***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** Merge
$25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, January 02, 12:32:42 ET 2012
Table Kentucky 46326165 Real Money
Seat 2 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 $49.23 USD - VPIP: 62, PFR: 55, 3B: 38, AF: 1.8, Hands: 252
Seat 2: Hero $44.82 USD - VPIP: 39, PFR: 29, 3B: 6, AF: 2.7, Hands: 6190
Hero posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Player1 posts big blind [$0.25 USD].

Holecards
Dealt to Hero [9s9d ]
Hero raises [$0.65 USD]
Player1 raises [$2.00 USD]
Hero calls [$1.50 USD]

Flop (Pot : $4.15)

   Th7cTs
Player1 bets [$3.00 USD]
Hero calls [$3.00 USD]

Turn (Pot : $10.15)

   Th7cTsTd
Player1 checks
Hero



He thought for about 5-10 seconds and checked.

To describe villain, he is VERY aggro when the pot is small (40% 3bet, raises flop about 20% of the time and folds a third of the time), but he tends to get nervous/conservative when the pot inflates. He is very passive on turns and rivers; I don't think I saw him make a single turn or river raise the entire match, and he's folded 4 of the 5 times I've 4bet him pre. I've barreled him off a lot of what I believe may be midpair type hands, and probably even top pair a few times. I've also seen him play cautious with AA vs my raise with 98 on JTx.

At this point of the match though, I think he views me as really aggro and potentially tilted because I've been 3betting his flop raises a lot since I started flopping a lot of draws. I had the chance to commit to at least 3 good river allin situations and he's folded every one after tanking a lot.

He's called a small river bet with J high on T7xxx vs my A high, but I think he missclicked. I don't think I've seen him call a river with much worse than a strong midpair.

I'm betting turn unless someone has another idea, but what's my sizing and plan for all the rivers?

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 Last edit: 02/01/2012 13:31

player999   Brasil. Jan 02 2012 14:08. Posts 7978

bomb bomb unless maybe an A falls? what seems to be the problem?
if he raises soulread call or soulread fold

Browsing through your hand histories makes me wonder that you might not be aware these games are possibly play money. Have you ever tried to cash out? - Kapol 

bigredhoss   Cook Islands. Jan 02 2012 16:49. Posts 8646

ya i'd b-f turn and river

Truck-Crash Life 

Endo   United States. Jan 02 2012 17:04. Posts 953

Edit: Actually I think I like blockbetting J+ rivers and folding to raises

 Last edit: 02/01/2012 17:04

player999   Brasil. Jan 02 2012 17:21. Posts 7978


  On January 02 2012 16:04 Endo wrote:
Edit: Actually I think I like blockbetting J+ rivers and folding to raises



you mean valuebetting

Browsing through your hand histories makes me wonder that you might not be aware these games are possibly play money. Have you ever tried to cash out? - Kapol 

Chewits   United Kingdom. Jan 02 2012 18:32. Posts 2539

Is his 3bet stat pre flop or all streets? Cuz 38% is ridic high if its just pre flop, which means his 3bet range is extremely wide and puts his flop cbet range to have alot of air here.. like almost always... If we bet on turn he is most likely to fold. But we cant ever check here. I like betting small (50-60%), to try to tag him along with his over cards and hope the river blanks.. If any face cards on river, he gets to act first and we can evaluate then...I dont think we are ever going to get a serious amount of money out of him on this board texture unless he hits, so betting small and trying to get him to call down with A high is my plan...

btw, those stats for you, I am guessing that includes 6max aswell, cuz them stats for HU are kinda nitty? :o

I am a degen. Do not believe in any of my advice. 

bigredhoss   Cook Islands. Jan 02 2012 18:40. Posts 8646

i think the 38% 3bet is more of a reason to bet bigger if anything since there's actually a reasonable chance of him having some kind of 7x, if he had like <10% 3b he almost never has 7x. if he does have A-high he's going to herocall sometimes regardless, i think betting smaller misses more value overall.

Truck-Crash Life 

traxamillion   United States. Jan 02 2012 19:23. Posts 10468

you are playing 39/29 in heads up?


TalentedTom    Canada. Jan 02 2012 20:02. Posts 20070

i like a flop reraise here esp with stack sizes

as played bet turn and bet river, if he CR turn i'd prob call him down

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us and as we let our own lights shine we unconsciously give other people permision to do the same 

edzwoo   United States. Jan 02 2012 20:03. Posts 5911


  On January 02 2012 18:23 traxamillion wrote:
you are playing 39/29 in heads up?



i was playing 55/45 with 18% 3bet, it's mixed in from some really old fr and 6max games when hero was first advertised.

3bet% is for pre only, he has a REALLY wide range on the turn. also keep in mind its 200bbs deep.


bigredhoss   Cook Islands. Jan 02 2012 20:24. Posts 8646


  On January 02 2012 19:03 edzwoo wrote:
Show nested quote +



3bet% is for pre only,


what else could it be for

Truck-Crash Life 

edzwoo   United States. Jan 02 2012 21:08. Posts 5911


  On January 02 2012 19:02 TalentedTom wrote:
i like a flop reraise here esp with stack sizes

as played bet turn and bet river, if he CR turn i'd prob call him down



I like the idea of a flop raise here because I've been able to raise boards like Axx with any A and get value out of K high when checked down or midpairs, but I don't really know how I'd proceed vs a 3bet or further streets.


soberstone   United States. Jan 02 2012 22:58. Posts 2662

If he really views you as aggro and is tilted than in his mind he is justifying a c/c w/ Ax or a smaller pair or c/ring w/ air, so based on your description I'm betting and not going anywhere. I think folding here is bad even though him c/ring is less then ideal. And def not checking behind the turn.


PillPoppin   United States. Jan 03 2012 00:25. Posts 71

4bet pre
as played check back the turn to induce a bluff unless you think hes 3betting a bunch of 7x hands. If he checks the river i think overbetting is the way to go.


TalentedTom    Canada. Jan 03 2012 01:04. Posts 20070


  On January 02 2012 23:25 PillPoppin wrote:
4bet pre
as played check back the turn to induce a bluff unless you think hes 3betting a bunch of 7x hands. If he checks the river i think overbetting is the way to go.



juding from this post you sound like one of those really aggro preflop regs who has no idea how to play postflop ;-0

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us and as we let our own lights shine we unconsciously give other people permision to do the same 

edzwoo   United States. Jan 03 2012 01:37. Posts 5911


  On January 02 2012 19:24 bigredhoss wrote:
Show nested quote +



what else could it be for



chewits was asking if it was for postflop 3bets too because that happened a lot


bigredhoss   Cook Islands. Jan 03 2012 02:03. Posts 8646

lol im blind sorry

Truck-Crash Life 

PillPoppin   United States. Jan 03 2012 12:07. Posts 71


  On January 03 2012 00:04 TalentedTom wrote:
Show nested quote +



juding from this post you sound like one of those really aggro preflop regs who has no idea how to play postflop ;-0

I think you're failing to realize that in this hand the hero is playing vs one of them. versus a 38% 3bet its probably worthwhile to up your 4bet to include 99. Otherwise, there is a ton of merit for taking lines that don't make sense with value hands.


TalentedTom    Canada. Jan 03 2012 13:37. Posts 20070


  On January 03 2012 11:07 PillPoppin wrote:
Show nested quote +


I think you're failing to realize that in this hand the hero is playing vs one of them. versus a 38% 3bet its probably worthwhile to up your 4bet to include 99. Otherwise, there is a ton of merit for taking lines that don't make sense with value hands.



you may not know this, but the goal of poker is to make money, the EV of 4-bet getting it in with 99 200bb deep is thin / losing. There are exceptions, but if hero had a good read on the dynamic in the match he would not be posting here


furthermore if villian sucks postflop, that's where we should be taking him as often as possible, especialyl in position - it's where we are going to make the most money in the match. he will also be pissed that he is missing the flops very often (which most hands do) - whereas im sure hes more then happy to just jam his AQo or TT preflop

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us and as we let our own lights shine we unconsciously give other people permision to do the same 

soberstone   United States. Jan 03 2012 17:25. Posts 2662


  On January 03 2012 12:37 TalentedTom wrote:
Show nested quote +



you may not know this, but the goal of poker is to make money, the EV of 4-bet getting it in with 99 200bb deep is thin / losing. There are exceptions, but if hero had a good read on the dynamic in the match he would not be posting here


furthermore if villian sucks postflop, that's where we should be taking him as often as possible, especialyl in position - it's where we are going to make the most money in the match. he will also be pissed that he is missing the flops very often (which most hands do) - whereas im sure hes more then happy to just jam his AQo or TT preflop



+1


K40Cheddar   United States. Jan 04 2012 04:02. Posts 2202


  On January 03 2012 12:37 TalentedTom wrote:
Show nested quote +



you may not know this, but the goal of poker is to make money, the EV of 4-bet getting it in with 99 200bb deep is thin / losing. There are exceptions, but if hero had a good read on the dynamic in the match he would not be posting here


furthermore if villian sucks postflop, that's where we should be taking him as often as possible, especialyl in position - it's where we are going to make the most money in the match. he will also be pissed that he is missing the flops very often (which most hands do) - whereas im sure hes more then happy to just jam his AQo or TT preflop



owned

GG 

HeRoS)eNGagE   Canada. Jan 11 2012 22:25. Posts 10896

dont coach the fishes Tom -.-


mnj   United States. Jan 12 2012 01:08. Posts 3848

based on your reads i don't think a river bet is all THAT good. if he's playing AA KK QQ like a bitch and c/calling them looks like a bad spot to vbet thin.

on the same note, if he is passive, it is just to easy to fold Ax's and not defend them on the turn.

i guess the question is how fed up is he folding to your aggression? if he is at his limit, then by all means vbet turn/river but it seems to me that this guy is a passive, tight nitfuck and there are prob better spots to exploit him


nice to see you playing again. wth is merge network and how can i starT?


TalentedTom    Canada. Jan 12 2012 15:07. Posts 20070


  On January 12 2012 00:08 mnj wrote:
based on your reads i don't think a river bet is all THAT good. if he's playing AA KK QQ like a bitch and c/calling them looks like a bad spot to vbet thin.

on the same note, if he is passive, it is just to easy to fold Ax's and not defend them on the turn.

i guess the question is how fed up is he folding to your aggression? if he is at his limit, then by all means vbet turn/river but it seems to me that this guy is a passive, tight nitfuck and there are prob better spots to exploit him


nice to see you playing again. wth is merge network and how can i starT?




even if he check calls JJ-AA its still a 100% clear bet, and its not close

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us and as we let our own lights shine we unconsciously give other people permision to do the same 

mnj   United States. Jan 12 2012 21:43. Posts 3848

i always appreciate your posts TT,

but we are betting turn and river to get called by wat range exactly?

if we are betting turn/river we are trying to bet small/small to get called by worse? (mainly A high?)


Silver_nz   New Zealand. Jan 13 2012 00:41. Posts 5647

Good hand for discussion.
I note these opponennts "terrified of All-in" ;P . So the EV sizing river bet smaller vs the EV of shoving.

from the turn, if the line goes:
BET3/4-CALL, CHECK-BET1/2 (pot $24 stack $30 bet of $12)
That might get called by a much wider range than
BET3/4-CALL, CHECK-SHOVE (sizing the turn for river shove)

I am going to start rambling math out now. Jocks should look away




oah= of all (possible preflop) hands
Starting range: 40% 3bet: 77+,A2s+,KTs+,K5s-K2s,QTs+,Q3s-Q2s,J8s+,T6s+,96s+,85s+,74s+,62s+,52s+,42s+,32s,A9o+,A6o-A2o,KJo+,JTo,97o-96o,86o-85o,75o+,64o+,53o+,43o
-99 Equity on every dollar that goes in: 67%eq

Flop narrow: let's assume he doesn't cbet his weak pairs and some Ahi cause Edzwoo has been raising him alot, and he traps with 1/4 of his tens, so take those out.
flop bet range: 35%oah : 77+,AJs+,A9s,A7s-A2s,KTs+,K5s-K2s,QTs+,Q3s-Q2s,J8s+,T8s+,T6s,98s,96s,86s-85s,62s+,52s+,42s+,32s,AQo+,A9o,A6o,A2o,KJo+,JTo,97o-96o,86o-85o,64o+,53o+,43o
-99s Equity on every dollar that goes in: 76%eq

this is the range he takes to the turn.
Once he checks the turn can narrow it further by taking out some top-of-range value hands. leave half in. Take out a few airballs as well cause he surely bluffs some of the time, though he is on the passive side.
turn ck: 25%oah: KK,JJ,99-77,AJs+,A9s,A7s-A2s,KTs+,K5s-K2s,QJs,J8s+,T8s,T6s,96s,86s-85s,62s+,52s+,42s+,AQo+,A9o,A6o,A2o,KJo+,JTo,97o-96o,86o-85o,64o+


comparing the 2 lines, main question is how much of his range calls on the river
B3/4-C,Ck-B1/2-C
to
B3/4-C,Ck-SHOVE-C

both turn call ranges are going to be fairly similar, alot of junk hands fold and some of his top-value hands c-r
Turn call and also river range: 11.5%oah : JJ,99-77,AJs+,A9s,A7sA2s,KTs+,QTs,JTs,T8s,T6s,AQo+,A9o,JTo,97o

-99s Equity on every dollar that goes in: 73%eq

for comparing the 2 lines, main question is how much of his range calls on the river

for line Bet3/4-C,Ck-Bet1/2-C
It's reasonable to assume he picks it off with any pair and also picks off with alot of Ahis that called the turn lets say 80% of Ahis.
River 1/2pot Call range: 10.5%oah JJ,99-77,AJs+,A9s,A7s-A4s,KTs,QTs,JTs,T8s,T6s,AQo+,A9o,JTo,97o

-99s Equity on every dollar that goes in: 83%eq
Bet amount: $12
EV = $12*83% - $12*17% = $7.9

for line Bet3/4-C,Ck-SHOVE-C
Our read is that he is afraid to stack off, so assume almost all his Ahi find a fold
And cause assumed alot of his 7's would check flop due to Eds aggression,
River Shove Call range: 5.4%oah :JJ,99-77,AKs,KTs,QTs,JTs,T8s,T6s,JTo,97o

-99s Equity on every dollar that goes in: 55%eq
bet amount: $36
EV = $36*55% - $36*45% = $3.6

bottom line: max profit in this hand depends on getting him to call with Ahi, 1/2 potting is more profitable

But is there a more profitable line? From the notes it seem unlikely he will spaz bluff often so some kind of induce line is unlikely to be profitable. Is there a way to get more value without scaring him off.

I want to figure how profitable it would be if we had airball and were to bluff all in turn n river. later though.

lol poker


bigredhoss   Cook Islands. Jan 13 2012 05:35. Posts 8646

whats that thing with the slider on the bottom, that's not part of pokerstove is it?

also what does "oah" mean :S

Truck-Crash Life 

Silver_nz   New Zealand. Jan 13 2012 05:56. Posts 5647

oah is defined at the start of the rambling, just my notation to tell the difference between different types of percentages. cause you end up having: equity %, %of his turn range he folds, %of the time needed to be ahead when bluff catching a certain % potsize bet. etc

oah= of all (possible preflop) hands

Yes, its pokerstove, to get to that screen click on the "Player 1" label.

 Last edit: 13/01/2012 06:06

TalentedTom    Canada. Jan 13 2012 23:47. Posts 20070

how do u have a pokerstove, mine is expired, i downloaded a new one from the site, but its still expired...

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us and as we let our own lights shine we unconsciously give other people permision to do the same 

Silver_nz   New Zealand. Jan 14 2012 05:49. Posts 5647

mine did too and I downloaded a new version from the stove website. version 1.24 iirc.

I've been playing around with flopzilla and I think I might buy that. Just because it counts the # hand combo for you so makes evaluating fold equity spots easier. And can weight a range, so I don't have to have a spotty range, like in the above where I say "assume he traps with half of his tens" to do that in poker stove I have to deselect half of the hands with tens in them. So I might keep TJ deselect QT, keep KT, deselect AT. Which can lead to serious errors when evaluating a hand over multiple streets.


DustySwedeDude   Sweden. Jan 14 2012 08:37. Posts 8623

I think bet bet is best. If he check/raises it kind of sucks but I don't think he does that very often unless you know he thinks you're floating a lot or something else that makes you think he'll go crazy with that. Considering how pretty our hand is right now and how much less pretty it'll be on a lot of rivers I vote bet bet. I don't want to do an induce size or something either, I feel his calling range (except possibly for spazzing) isn't very elastic. He'll call 1/2 as often as 4/5 so unless you want to balance I'd like to bomb this.


Silver_nz   New Zealand. Jan 14 2012 16:17. Posts 5647

Hey Dusty, I've got a sick read on you, that you didn't read, the origional post with its reads (on this particular opponent)


DustySwedeDude   Sweden. Jan 14 2012 18:51. Posts 8623


  On January 14 2012 15:17 Silver_nz wrote:
Hey Dusty, I've got a sick read on you, that you didn't read, the origional post with its reads (on this particular opponent)



I did read it, figured that he's frustrated but that's not really enough of a read to know he'll spazz a lot, no?


Silver_nz   New Zealand. Jan 14 2012 19:45. Posts 5647

I mean regarding 4/5th bombing the river, from the read, doen't it sound like he folds all his Ahis? but in other spots he has been happy to call a small bet with maginal sd value


TalentedTom    Canada. Jan 14 2012 20:41. Posts 20070

people HATE folding A high on boards that have trips in HU.. it literaly never happens, they peel religiously, especialyl very aggresive players, they convince themsevles that they have tilted their opponent

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us and as we let our own lights shine we unconsciously give other people permision to do the same 

TalentedTom    Canada. Jan 14 2012 20:42. Posts 20070

if hes 3-betting, c-betting and then check folding A high here, esp with a 30%+ 3-bet, then this is a super easy/ profitable HU match

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us and as we let our own lights shine we unconsciously give other people permision to do the same 

 



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