dunno why i always hate your plays on every street :D

What value hands are you looking to get him to fold? As good as 33?

I think if this is a profitable river raise then it's an even more profitable river call - you're not folding enough hands that beat you to justify the raise unless you think he's folding sets

what's OP thought process on turn barrel?

I kinda go overboard with barreling blockers. Especially given positions. Most of his bb defend range cant call 3 streets. I discounted most of his sets given cr on that card and put him more on 77 qj for his bluffs and 109, (a10 hoping to get a check check on river) for thin value

Theres a decent chance I'm turning the best hand into a bluff but just in case he was value betting pretty thin or turning a hand like 97s 10js into bluffs, the river sizing also seemed like a b/f.

Thought process fine?

On June 27 2015 07:10 Smuft wrote: I think if this is a profitable river raise then it's an even more profitable river call - you're not folding enough hands that beat you to justify the raise unless you think he's folding sets what's OP thought process on turn barrel?

Calling here is always bad imo.

Too many players are willing/capable to turn a hand like JT, QT, 89 etc. into a bluff here, so raising will always show better long term results.

Also, by jamming the river there is the added possibility that he forces the villain to hero fold 33, AT, or some other strong but not great hand that he somehow got to the river with.

Can't speak for OP but I'm guessing he barrels the turn with the hope of folding out similar ranges of hands that I mentioned.

Personally, I think this play is fine on all streets. Stack sizes were a little iffy for calling turn to set up the river shove but I don't hate it. The only thing that's dicey is hero represents a very small range of hands total, pretty much exclusively 78 suited (which maybe isnt even in his utg+1 range), TT, 99 or AA. A good player might look you up light here if they factor that in.

On June 27 2015 11:13 nolan wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2015 07:10 Smuft wrote: I think if this is a profitable river raise then it's an even more profitable river call - you're not folding enough hands that beat you to justify the raise unless you think he's folding sets what's OP thought process on turn barrel? Calling here is always bad imo. Too many players are willing/capable to turn a hand like JT, QT, 89 etc. into a bluff here, so raising will always show better long term results. Also, by jamming the river there is the added possibility that he forces the villain to hero fold 33, AT, or some other strong but not great hand that he somehow got to the river with. Can't speak for OP but I'm guessing he barrels the turn with the hope of folding out similar ranges of hands that I mentioned. Personally, I think this play is fine on all streets. Stack sizes were a little iffy for calling turn to set up the river shove but I don't hate it. The only thing that's dicey is hero represents a very small range of hands total, pretty much exclusively 78 suited (which maybe isnt even in his utg+1 range), TT, 99 or AA. A good player might look you up light here if they factor that in.

Yea agreed. I think most good players wouldnt have a turn raising range here. Given the nature of the board, Im following through with alot of bets for value and as bluffs. So he shouldnt be too worried about the river going check check too often.

On June 27 2015 12:49 handbanana21 wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2015 11:13 nolan wrote:   On June 27 2015 07:10 Smuft wrote: I think if this is a profitable river raise then it's an even more profitable river call - you're not folding enough hands that beat you to justify the raise unless you think he's folding sets what's OP thought process on turn barrel? Calling here is always bad imo. Too many players are willing/capable to turn a hand like JT, QT, 89 etc. into a bluff here, so raising will always show better long term results. Also, by jamming the river there is the added possibility that he forces the villain to hero fold 33, AT, or some other strong but not great hand that he somehow got to the river with. Can't speak for OP but I'm guessing he barrels the turn with the hope of folding out similar ranges of hands that I mentioned. Personally, I think this play is fine on all streets. Stack sizes were a little iffy for calling turn to set up the river shove but I don't hate it. The only thing that's dicey is hero represents a very small range of hands total, pretty much exclusively 78 suited (which maybe isnt even in his utg+1 range), TT, 99 or AA. A good player might look you up light here if they factor that in. Yea agreed. I think most good players wouldnt have a turn raising range here. Given the nature of the board, Im following through with alot of bets for value and as bluffs. So he shouldnt be too worried about the river going check check too often.

I think your guys assumptions are way off.

No one is turning Tx into a bluff.

33 is not getting called on T96 and if it were it's not folding to a minraise on the river.

98s, 97s, okay, much more reasonable but still these are not super attractive XR hands, they are good enough to call and thats what most of the population does with them most of the tim0e

Hands w/o showdown value that are not good enough to call like KJ, KQ (of which all the offsuit combos are potentially in villain's range while for 98-97 only the suited combos are in his range) are a much bigger part of villain's range

The only thing that makes me think raise > call on river is that hero's raise size is basically min so even if BB folds a few combos, it's probably okay.

-

I ran a quick CREV sim on this and it's really crude but it came back EV 119 call and EV 108 raise, even with this river minraise. Admittedly it's close enough that playing with the assumptions a bit call > raise could become true.

However in a situation with a reasonable raise size, where your are risking ~200 or so with your bluff then then it becomes call >>> raise by a long shot.

On June 27 2015 08:50 handbanana21 wrote: I kinda go overboard with barreling blockers. Especially given positions. Most of his bb defend range cant call 3 streets. I discounted most of his sets given cr on that card and put him more on 77 qj for his bluffs and 109, (a10 hoping to get a check check on river) for thin value Theres a decent chance I'm turning the best hand into a bluff but just in case he was value betting pretty thin or turning a hand like 97s 10js into bluffs, the river sizing also seemed like a b/f. Thought process fine?

It's reasonable but I don't like it. 3 barreling 88 because of it's blockers doesnt make sense because

1) it blocks more call/call/fold hands than it blocks call/call/call hands
2) the call/call/call hands that it blocks often raise before the river

On top of that we have plenty of other hands we can use to bluff here, 88 has enough SD value that we can check it back on the flop or turn or even both and will just have higher EV being played that way.

Like if we're bluffing 88 on the turn it doesn't just have to be +EV, it has to be MORE +EV than checking it back. Since 88 already has a lot of EV as a check back it's very hard for it to be a good bluff

Smufts last 2 posts pretty much nail it imo

i think the flop bet is bad, the turn bet is worse, and the river shove is nonsensical. but max value tho!

On June 27 2015 14:10 Smuft wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2015 08:50 handbanana21 wrote: I kinda go overboard with barreling blockers. Especially given positions. Most of his bb defend range cant call 3 streets. I discounted most of his sets given cr on that card and put him more on 77 qj for his bluffs and 109, (a10 hoping to get a check check on river) for thin value Theres a decent chance I'm turning the best hand into a bluff but just in case he was value betting pretty thin or turning a hand like 97s 10js into bluffs, the river sizing also seemed like a b/f. Thought process fine? It's reasonable but I don't like it. 3 barreling 88 because of it's blockers doesnt make sense because 1) it blocks more call/call/fold hands than it blocks call/call/call hands 2) the call/call/call hands that it blocks often raise before the river On top of that we have plenty of other hands we can use to bluff here, 88 has enough SD value that we can check it back on the flop or turn or even both and will just have higher EV being played that way. Like if we're bluffing 88 on the turn it doesn't just have to be +EV, it has to be MORE +EV than checking it back. Since 88 already has a lot of EV as a check back it's very hard for it to be a good bluff

what would you consider better 3barrels here? Not having the blocker to the straight esp vs the bb doesnt give us much playback vs a c/r. Or is that just such a small portion of villains plays that i really shouldnt be considering that.

On June 27 2015 22:00 handbanana21 wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2015 14:10 Smuft wrote:   On June 27 2015 08:50 handbanana21 wrote: I kinda go overboard with barreling blockers. Especially given positions. Most of his bb defend range cant call 3 streets. I discounted most of his sets given cr on that card and put him more on 77 qj for his bluffs and 109, (a10 hoping to get a check check on river) for thin value Theres a decent chance I'm turning the best hand into a bluff but just in case he was value betting pretty thin or turning a hand like 97s 10js into bluffs, the river sizing also seemed like a b/f. Thought process fine? It's reasonable but I don't like it. 3 barreling 88 because of it's blockers doesnt make sense because 1) it blocks more call/call/fold hands than it blocks call/call/call hands 2) the call/call/call hands that it blocks often raise before the river On top of that we have plenty of other hands we can use to bluff here, 88 has enough SD value that we can check it back on the flop or turn or even both and will just have higher EV being played that way. Like if we're bluffing 88 on the turn it doesn't just have to be +EV, it has to be MORE +EV than checking it back. Since 88 already has a lot of EV as a check back it's very hard for it to be a good bluff what would you consider better 3barrels here? Not having the blocker to the straight esp vs the bb doesnt give us much playback vs a c/r. Or is that just such a small portion of villains plays that i really shouldnt be considering that.

Our inherent value range defends fine vs a XR, no need to go out of your way to add in extra defense hands

Best combos to 3 barrel? it's really not obvious on this board but I don't think having blockers to the nuts is very important since 1) blockers to the nuts are also blockers to hands he potentially folds 2) nuts often raise before the river

rough candidate list: KQ, KJ, QJ, A8, A7... A6/65s maybe

any ideas why KJ is almost always a check while KQ is a bet?

obv it exact % might differ based on exact ranges and sizings (i use 66, 75, 75 or ai), but theres always a reason why one hand is better for certain action, but i m lost here

On June 27 2015 16:31 Daut wrote: i think the flop bet is bad, the turn bet is worse, and the river shove is nonsensical. but max value tho!

Agree completely, river is the least bad part imo

@dogmeat what is OOP strategy on the turn with his QJ and KJ?

@daut - why do you think the flop bet is bad? Isn't the standard to cbet w/ the vast majority of our holdings here? Let alone w/ a made hand/draw?

This hand is a giant fuckaroo though imo. Wonder what villain had. busted straight draw is my guess

^ We can not bet the flop for value and protection is not important at all, because he will call very often anyway.

Just feels funny theoretically cbetting overs and not a pair/gutter, ya know?

I like how this hand was played.