Open Limping (Not Trolling, I Promise)

On December 01 2011 19:26 MiPwnYa wrote: Show nested quote + On December 01 2011 14:57 n0rthf4ce wrote:   On November 30 2011 19:30 MiPwnYa wrote: what about limpin in PLO -.- might actually be a more interesting discussion i open limp all the time EP in a good 9 handed game. limp/call or limp/fold depending on ensuing action. Stuff like AKJ6ss to A and 5668ds...not quite strong enough to call a 3b profitably in a ring game but good hands to play multiway vs bad players. im not much of a full ring/live player but isnt AKJ6ss with A hi suit good enough to just open EP ? its not like were gonna get 3bet that often given that our EP range is fairly strong. I do agree that there are tons of hands that we can open limp in a good FR game

Never played 9handed PLO so I'm not sure in practice how I would approach playing in the first 3 positions. 6max experience tells me AKJ6ss is a good open EP online because there's a decent chance you get through to the blinds. Whereas in live 9handed EP, you're pretty much guaranteeing to play the hand oop. I'm on the fence with that one but I'd also lean toward limping it just so that I have some nut flush potential in my limping range w/ higher sidecards (not sure how relevent this is most of the time).

In HE I think the main reason its bad is that it corrects your opponents' passive play. Typically you do not want players putting in a raise after you and typical regulars and nitty fish are a lot more likely to raise an open limp than they are to 3 bet an open raise. Certainly there is a way to exploit someone raising open-limps too often, but most players will be raising limps with a frequency that is about right while their 3 betting frequency is not enough.

Online open-limping also sucks because of the no-flop-no drop policy and opportunity cost. If no one has anything do you want to spend time playing a small raked pot or just win pre and move on to the next hand?

On November 30 2011 16:13 thewh00sel wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2011 13:47 thewh00sel2 wrote: I played with phildo recently deepish but not itm in a live tourney and he open limped 100% of his hands with like 20-50bb stacks all around. I think his goal isn't to be polarized to super weak and super strong hands, it's to limp hands that you are limp/calling or limp/folding with mostly and force the blinds to play OOP vs you when they will make mistakes when seeing a flop. I think he realizes that tournament push/fold poker is pretty much common knowledge and throwing in a limping strategy and getting to play more postflop benefits him more than immediate fold equity of a raise. Also explains why he defends super wide to small raises in the bb. (J6s to utg open and 48o were two hands I saw get to showdown that he defended). Also note that in live poker your opponents' bet sizing and timing aren't the only pieces of information you get so you can limp and effectively know how strong or weak your opponents are after the flop much easier than online. I've been thinking about adding some open limping to my game in MTTs but haven't as of yet except SB vs BB. As to cash game limping I haven't had much trouble vs it. If people are known for limp/raising a lot I treat their limps as opens and iso them only with hands I would 3bet to their opens and if they limp/raise I treat it as a 4-bet. was me btw, just forgot my password for a min

Can you give some examples of spots (or how the table dynamics need to be) that would make you decide to open limp in a tourney?

I could devise an open limping strategy for a 9 handed NL game online.

The issue is that even in 6max now, it's at the point where a UTG opening range really shouldn't be more than 18 percent unless you are really good. This means without history it's correct to just flat even QQ against a UTG open from an average regular. If that's the case with 6 players at the table, how much tighter must those numbers get for the 7th 8th and 9th spots at the table?

It's quite problematic to value raise JJ and c-bet flops you don't make sets on from UTG @ 9 handed table because it's correct for them to flat and not 3bet stronger pairs pre, and it's also very often going to be incorrect for them to continue against a c-bet from a UTG open without a set if they flatted pre with a pair they deemed not likely to be ahead of your opening range. So you can solve for this in one of two ways, you either widen your UTG opening range or you formulate a strategy that includes limping.

I almost never play 9 handed but if I ever did, I would limp the majority of hands I played from the first three spots. Mostly SC, suited wheel aces, suited broadway aces,pairs bigger than 7s and AK. My plan ..well I guess that's kinda self evident at this point....Keep pots small with the marginal parts of my range, induce lots of bluffs and multi barrels when I have something really awesome, and utilize the inherent strength of my range with timely limp/3bets.

There's clear spots where it's the best play to limp when it's folded around to you in the SB and the BB is a tough player as well.

Ever open limping the cutoff seems incredibly unlikely to be a winning play.

Just my 2cents,

I think you can sometimes ol, from button for example, or in soem specific live games, where nobody watches what are you doing and you can set mine with small pockets by ol'ing.
Otherwise it's just too difficult to play.

On December 01 2011 19:26 MiPwnYa wrote: Show nested quote + On December 01 2011 14:57 n0rthf4ce wrote:   On November 30 2011 19:30 MiPwnYa wrote: what about limpin in PLO -.- might actually be a more interesting discussion i open limp all the time EP in a good 9 handed game. limp/call or limp/fold depending on ensuing action. Stuff like AKJ6ss to A and 5668ds...not quite strong enough to call a 3b profitably in a ring game but good hands to play multiway vs bad players. im not much of a full ring/live player but isnt AKJ6ss with A hi suit good enough to just open EP ? its not like were gonna get 3bet that often given that our EP range is fairly strong. I do agree that there are tons of hands that we can open limp in a good FR game

Ive been playing around with this and AKJ6ss is def good enough to open. now im starting to limp AJ108ss and AK67ds as these are much weaker hands and a good ones to give our limping range some balance. however im not sure about the merits of limping AK67ds...what do u guys think?

if AK67 is with A hi and 6 hi suits then I like limping, if its w A and K hi suit def open.
As for AJT8ss w A hi suit you should just open that its pretty strong

I found open limping to be very good in super fishy live games with like 22-66, 67s, Axs and stuff

if you wanna be that cute guy who losses 100k developing an ok limping strategy go for it

On May 03 2012 10:41 MARSHALL28 wrote: There's clear spots where it's the best play to limp when it's folded around to you in the SB and the BB is a tough player as well.

This.

I open limp all the time in live holdem games. i think it's really good in a lot of super passive/loose/bad games. especially if you can still win a ton of pots without showdown multiway LOL

or limp shit like 22 or 78s utg cuz ppl are again. super loose/passives that we are spewing into their likely better hands if we raise but get massive value when we hit. and we aren't ever getting exploited by getting iso'd light over and over.

On February 06 2013 14:53 YoMeR wrote: I open limp all the time in live holdem games. i think it's really good in a lot of super passive/loose/bad games. especially if you can still win a ton of pots without showdown multiway LOL or limp shit like 22 or 78s utg cuz ppl are again. super loose/passives that we are spewing into their likely better hands if we raise but get massive value when we hit. and we aren't ever getting exploited by getting iso'd light over and over.

This x100 imo!

I used to have a hard time vs. good regs in 9 max, who open limp/open limp 3 bets ep, like Sharknebulah, Kelisitaan, FRiaR SKanK, mustanggino, etc back in the days.
Then i started doing it last year and i love it, it's amazing how bad most of the regs adjust to it.

What are u open limping"?

HEY! What do you guys open limp O_O

T8s

On February 07 2013 20:26 Minion wrote: I used to have a hard time vs. good regs in 9 max, who open limp/open limp 3 bets ep, like Sharknebulah, Kelisitaan, FRiaR SKanK, mustanggino, etc back in the days. Then i started doing it last year and i love it, it's amazing how bad most of the regs adjust to it.

this is not true, Kelisitaan never open limped... only limped back and often strong hands lik AA

lol cosmo... in your standard live game with a ton of loose/passive players I'll probably be limping all pp under 88 utg, all weak Ax sooted under ATs and potentially even shit like K6s+ depending if there's a gigantic whale in the bb. I may opt to simply raise a significantly wider range with whale in the bb/sb if there's no other good players that can rape my looser utg opening but other than that my utg opening range is pretty static/tight.

in MP and in ep my limping range in similar described games widens significantly...especially in co/btn where i take down pot after pot without showdown w shit like Q6s LOLLLLL.

basically my game would be unbelievably easy to rape/exploit...but the fish are so bad so it doesn't matter anyways. even if I get in pots with dominated hands it's not like i'm going to be losing a ton a bbs to better hands...and since live noobs limp strong hands like AQ/AKs i get to stack them on like K65 boards w shit like K6 for the lulz.

--- Nuked ---

WTF, open limping is bad because you will get isolated even by small amounts and we will be playing oop against god knows what range, if we dont want that to happen then we have to limp/3bet often, and if we dont want to get stomped by 4bets we need a balanced 3 betting range which means we will have to be limping JJ AK+ which sucks because we will loose a lot of value in those hands overall and even with a balanced range it sounds vulnerable to undersized positional isolations.


So Wobbly is right and being a douche about it as usual, there is a reason why it doesn't happen in high stakes online, but it happens live in softer games full of whales.