130 with 70 ppl

11 people left on 2 tables, I'm prob 4-5 place with about 50k in chips, started with 8k. Lots of variables I'm leaving out I feel like but I can't really copy/paste a hh. Final table gets paid.

Utg (50k stack as well) + 2 opens to 6k, mid shoves for 16k, I look down at KK's.

Main issue here is do you prefer trapping initial opener or just protecting stack and shoving? I imagine alot of flops will be hard to fold 88-QQ type hands.

Is he ever stacking off here lightish pre flop? If not and if we are in position I would call, otherwise ship.

I prefer to shove here almost 100% of the time just based upon cEV. In spots like these, I find flatting to not be nearly as profitable in tournaments as it would be in a cash game with similar dynamics.

Could you elaborate on the concept of cEV?

http://pokerterms.com/cev.html
http://pokerterms.com/icm.html
Basic Example:
These two concepts are why getting it in preflop QQ vs AK will show a slight +EV for the QQ in a cash game, but on a full table STT (single table tournament) getting it in preflop is -EV for both hands.

Ty zep, it seems that the icm is what drives cEV as well? As although u win chips and something may be +cEV based on icm ur edge may have been to marginal.

So basically folding is best in order to protect your equity in the tournament unless u have a big edge like Kk and then just protect your equity.


Ty zep

On August 30 2011 11:42 patti wrote: Ty zep, it seems that the icm is what drives cEV as well? As although u win chips and something may be +cEV based on icm ur edge may have been to marginal. So basically folding is best in order to protect your equity in the tournament unless u have a big edge like Kk and then just protect your equity. Ty zep

Your first statement is spot on, however it's not folding that protects your equity in tournaments. It's non-showdown winnings that make up a winning tournament player. Keep in mind non-showdown winnings are obtained differently from cash as well as you generally have less bb's and ante's at a certain points in a tournament. The reason why someone like phil hellmuth has been successful has been because of his image as a nit and his ability to read his opponents weakness and put pressure on them- Thus obtaining chips without going to showdown. It took me a couple years before i realized how significant non-showdown winnings are in tournaments. And If you do have negative showdown winnings, you'll probably find it nearly impossible to obtain more than 180x the amount of starting chips.

if you're going to look at it that way then the payouts matter a ton. I'm assuming top 3 get all the monies so you should want to play a huge pot with KK and just flat pre so it puts you in better position to win the tourney.

KK 3 way is not that strong of a hand for your tournament life. If you're up against 77 and AQs you're only looking at ~53% equity. If this was the beginning of a tournament, you could argue for max value by flatting, but on the bubble, it would be incredibly naive to think flatting is better. I would much rather get it in for 1/3 my chips with 70/30 or 80/20 equity then flatting and letting your opponent have the opportunity to shove over you pre or if he does flat, what are you going to do on an ace high board 30% of the time? In terms of all in preflop: Your EV in chips after the pot in a 3 way pot is going to be ~62k chips with 50% chance of losing or in a heads up pot it is going to be ~51 - 58k chips with 20 - 30% chance of losing. A 10 - 20% increase in chips is not worth 20 - 30% more risk on the bubble. You should do everything you can to prevent getting in a 3-way pot in this instance, and so that means shoving for fold equity.
ICM is a huge factor here. Risking your tournament life (flatting does this) 20 - 30% of the time with 11 people left is really not going to put yourself in a better position to win a tournament in the long run. Especially as an average stack with remaining big stacks. If you were short stacked or chip leader, more risk would be fine, but as an average stack, you have to protect your life and work on chipping up.
And this is coming from a long-term winner who recently won 3 tournaments in the last 2 months including a $109R. Braaag.

Super obvious not even thinking about it shove