Interesting deep 10/20 hand.

Villan in the hand is young asian kid who is more competent than most of the people that play this game (might be from the interwebs but who knows these days) but by no means do you consider him "good". He is currently losing and seems tilted. Your image in this game is super aggro boss god-moding genius who hasn't lost a day in 2 months. You've had a pretty aggro dynamic with this villan in previous sessions, and you know he's capable of running some big bluffs.

You open UTG+1 to $70 with at a table where most of the line-up is easily over 150bbs. Tight old man calls in middle position. Villan raises button to $290. You call and the tight reg calls.

Effective stacks:
Tight Reg ($5,000)
Hero / You ($12,000)
Villan has everyone covered.

Flop: (Pot: $900)
You check, tight reg checks, Villan bets $550. You raise to $1500. Tight reg folds, Villan tanks for a bit then calls.

Turn: (Pot: $3900)
You bet $2500 (With $7500 behind). Villan tanks for a while, then raises $3500 more to $6000.

Discuss line, and turn decision. Is your turn decision the same if he jams all-in on the turn?

COME ON HIGH STEAKS LP.NET. I'M BORED AND NEED ANSWERS TO ALL OF LIFE'S GREAT MYSTERIES NOOOOWWWW

I have a question too,

I've played online poker for 6 months until it was finally made impossible by the us government but...

Are these spots not super read dependent? Can anyone really give u advice in these spots? So much of poker is figured out and standard lines are standard. So my question sort of ties into how do u get such detailed reads and information? I feel like if u know the ranges and the player and the reads everyone can tell u the proper line (which is mistaken for the answer) but more important than the line is how u get those reads And the data?

Sorry for hijack but as played based on my personal experience with live, everyone is always tighter than they appear and ppl still pay them off hero calling. I think I fold turn esp since he's Asian, no one gives Asians credit and he should know that

you cant fold imo...he might be waiting for a 'safe' turn to put it in....you can have all kinds of draws.

id expect someone tilted to 3bet me on the flop with sets, QT and T7. so i jam. obviously dont feel very good about it, but i dont think you can find a fold here


edit: i guess he can have 76 here. this is actually a pretty brutal spot with 300bb behind. i still think its a jam but in the moment i think id have a much harder time actually putting the money in but would probably eventually do it.

cant imagine bet/folding the turn as played with history given/how the hand was played up to this point. sorta sucks but with these dynamics 6 buyin coolers just happen

if villain is tilted couldnt he play a hand like AJ QQ KK AA like this? i mean, hypothetically he could even decide he just wants to gambool with a hand like JTs right?

I cant really imagine getting it in on the flop being good and I can't really see getting it in on the turn being good either so I guess I don't like the flop checkraise. You're pretty much counting on villain to call down with one pair and for the turn and river to go blank blank.

pretty good chance he just has an overpair and is trying to run it vs you on safe-ish turn but i think he would probably shove if that was the case. Combo draw isn't out of his range given how deep the stacks are he can win more by raising the turn bet without shoving to look scary. I say go with it or don't check raise the flop and let him barrel off. Also you haven't lost in two months so river 9 coming anyways.

I really have no idea wtf he has here so I'm guessing it's a total retard airball move with kq or k10

On July 30 2011 16:15 NMcNasty wrote: I cant really imagine getting it in on the flop being good and I can't really see getting it in on the turn being good either so I guess I don't like the flop checkraise. You're pretty much counting on villain to call down with one pair and for the turn and river to go blank blank.

i somewhat agree, although playing this oop will also be uncomortable on a lot of turn and rivers if we do c/c. however i do think given how uncomfortable it is when we get 3bet or raised on the turn that we should check call here on the flop which has the benefit of adding some strength to our c/c range.

On July 30 2011 16:15 NMcNasty wrote: I cant really imagine getting it in on the flop being good and I can't really see getting it in on the turn being good either so I guess I don't like the flop checkraise. You're pretty much counting on villain to call down with one pair and for the turn and river to go blank blank.

I agree with this. I think c/r has to be the worst option on the flop. You have too much behind with too many turn/river that can make future decisions a headache when you jack up the pot. Even if turn/river bricks, there's no way your opponent is calling off flop c/r, turn bet and all in river with 1 pair.

I'd prefer leading the flop to avoid free turn and get value from 1pair/gutter/oesd.
If you are sure villain is gonna c-bet alot, i'd rather c/c and lead safe turn.

If you c/r the flop here, i think you should be doing it with intention to play for stacks. You have to be sure he's tilted out of his mind and ship in good pair with oesd/over pair/or even retard draw like peachy mentioned with assumption that u are truly the aggro boss that's playing pair/oesd like this.

i agree with andrew 100%

i am actually really surprised people checkraise here. I kinda want to know why... cuz i definitely see it more likely that said player 3barrels us here than calls it off with 1 pair

This is a hand my roommate played, but he told me the hand wrong. Pretty interesting discussion so far thou.

I'm assuming things change if the board reads

I hate the check raise

Hate it less on K98 but still not a fan

ye i wouldn't ck raise this deep unless i knew a lot of specifics of how he would react. or i guess maybe if u had a read he never would 3bet a bluff on flop but would always 3bet better hands and never flat them. obviously thats super rare but its kind of an example of a spot id think its ok so then u could checkraise and just barrel off or bet/get it in on turn. I dunno its hard to imagine checkraising playing out very well once a bunch of money goes in. for value id probably cutoff my checkraising with K9 K8 might still be a flat but then atleast he has 98 that can get coolered with and call it off as well as make bad calls with worse. Its not a bad thing to be polarized here btw. doesnt mean we're not balanced enough

that c/r is so terrible on a K98, you're forcing him to either playmaster spaz, peel a draw, or have exactly 88 AK AA that you beat and he might put in more $ with.

we do not beat 88 with 89 on this board afaik nolan

nolan beats 88 with 89 actually.

On August 05 2011 03:49 DooMeR wrote: nolan beats 88 with 89 actually.

Binks the 9 like a pro

he doesn't need to bink the 9 to win. h

ye he actually just wins with 89 anyway

Too scared to post almost, but I once heard, if people call on that flop, its never monsters almost!! what a scary spot lol

why are you always so deep
lol

Like nolan, I thought we had 99 after reading this thread like 3 times

Are u guys serious? I agree this play on j98 is not so great but on k98 2 tone NOT c/ring 98 and betting turn has got to be a huge mistake with this kind of history and image. I love our play and our hand up until the point we get raised, then I dont love love it but still don't mind shipping here.

On August 09 2011 13:41 n0rthf4ce wrote: Are u guys serious? I agree this play on j98 is not so great but on k98 2 tone NOT c/ring 98 and betting turn has got to be a huge mistake with this kind of history and image. I love our play and our hand up until the point we get raised, then I dont love love it but still don't mind shipping here.

Was kinda my view too. Hand was played by my roommate GoGators. He mistype txt'd me that the flop was J-9-8, but then later told me it was K-9-8. Editted the hand for good discussion.

Results:
+ Show Spoiler +

gogators is the man

meh villain not raising the turn makes it ez ship

i mean obv yea, we had a lot of discussion about his turn plan thou. He runs too good to ever get into this spot thou lol

on a J98hh i dont think you ever ever get into a spot where villain raises turn ( thats why originally i thought itd be a retard bluff with KQ or K10 most of the time). on a K98 i think it happens a lot more of the time, and unfortunately you're gonna be beat a pretty large % of the time but not enough to make it a fold. i think these kinds of spots in live poker are a lot easier to deal with because when faced with a huge decision it matters a ton to see how your opponent is acting.

First time posting here love the discussion. I am more a tourney sng player than cash but getting better at cash lately. Play 5-10 (is this nl 1000?) at the Borgata in AC and online a bit but somewhat new to these stakes, so forgive me if my analysis is way off.

K98 to me is obv c/r about same amount too on flop. Bottom 2 really isn't great so if I take it on flop great if not I am bombing the turn on a safe card.

What stuns me is how many posters hate c/r on j98 board. I love c/r here because my hand figures to be best now but board is super draw heavy. If you lead out and villain calls you learn nothing. If you lead out and tilted villain raises, you learn nothing and play the rest of the hand oop and villain has taken over control and will bomb turn and maybe river. You wind up being a station with 2 pair on a scary as hell board. Unless plan is to 3bet flop very hard if villain raises?

To me c/c is really bad here. Our hand is likely ahead now but there are tons of really bad cards for us. I want to take this pot on the flop I am not slow playing bottom 2 on a ridiculously draw heavy board. I am not looking for villain to call of 12k with 1 pair. I want to protect my pot and take it down before something bad happens. That is just me though I guess. On j98 flop from initial post I am c/r but a lot more total bet at least 2200 maybe 2500. Villain is going to have to be serious to call that bet IMO. If he shoves he shoves and I have to make a decision based on read. He won't donk call kq kt here is my thinking because he knows I am bombing the turn. If he flats and safe turn like 5 I am leading out 4k and that should do it. If he shoves over that it sucks but you are beat unless villain is high and doesnt care about losing 12k on one hand of poker. Said he is younger right? Guessing 12k means a bit to him maybe not.

Anyway that's my take. On that board I am not looking to milk villain dry. I am looking to take it before the turn is a Q, T, J, 7, or 3rd of a suit.

Last thing... Villain does not have aa kk qq here. Almost certrainly villain 3bets flop there ESP if tilting. Would aa just smooth and risk super scary turn? Heck no that is suicidal.

On August 17 2011 18:34 Blakjaks wrote: First time posting here love the discussion. I am more a tourney sng player than cash but getting better at cash lately. Play 5-10 (is this nl 1000?) at the Borgata in AC and online a bit but somewhat new to these stakes, so forgive me if my analysis is way off. K98 to me is obv c/r about same amount too on flop. Bottom 2 really isn't great so if I take it on flop great if not I am bombing the turn on a safe card. What stuns me is how many posters hate c/r on j98 board. I love c/r here because my hand figures to be best now but board is super draw heavy. If you lead out and villain calls you learn nothing. If you lead out and tilted villain raises, you learn nothing and play the rest of the hand oop and villain has taken over control and will bomb turn and maybe river. You wind up being a station with 2 pair on a scary as hell board. Unless plan is to 3bet flop very hard if villain raises? To me c/c is really bad here. Our hand is likely ahead now but there are tons of really bad cards for us. I want to take this pot on the flop I am not slow playing bottom 2 on a ridiculously draw heavy board. I am not looking for villain to call of 12k with 1 pair. I want to protect my pot and take it down before something bad happens. That is just me though I guess. On j98 flop from initial post I am c/r but a lot more total bet at least 2200 maybe 2500. Villain is going to have to be serious to call that bet IMO. If he shoves he shoves and I have to make a decision based on read. He won't donk call kq kt here is my thinking because he knows I am bombing the turn. If he flats and safe turn like 5 I am leading out 4k and that should do it. If he shoves over that it sucks but you are beat unless villain is high and doesnt care about losing 12k on one hand of poker. Said he is younger right? Guessing 12k means a bit to him maybe not. Anyway that's my take. On that board I am not looking to milk villain dry. I am looking to take it before the turn is a Q, T, J, 7, or 3rd of a suit. Last thing... Villain does not have aa kk qq here. Almost certrainly villain 3bets flop there ESP if tilting. Would aa just smooth and risk super scary turn? Heck no that is suicidal.

Where is mig? Nominate this for HS ban imo

was this vs albert?

Yea, u know Albert?

J89 we have a semi-discussion (given reads and history is a snap shove) on K89x double suited in a 3bet pot 30 bazillion buy-ins 89 is nuts.

You guys overvalue 89 here.

good contribution

where this hand was played? just wondering...

first of all if u know the table (observation) its ok to play 8 9 suited after reraise.but if not i would see the first mistake there.then after flop u should bet since it is obvious that button will if its 3 way and everybody checks.and that puts u on guessing side(u dont want that happen unless u r guessing how much they will call lol).but since he called ur raise i wouldnt recomend to bet after turn less then a pot size.i would rather check or bet stronger.the thing he was on button and reraised preflop can mean Ax suited or some pair(medium,small,possibly top 3).only card u can be scared of at the moment is JJ.but again to repeat myself if u dont know players u play with on the online table u cant go 89 UTG.i recomend to do it after ike 1-2 hours on table if it didnt change up too much.and u didnt say how many chips he has.just he has covered all.that can mean from 12k-........!

sry i forgtot to say what should u do........go all innnnnnnn.u cant get much better board for ur hand and tehre is lot of drawing possibilities.5 havent helped much but i dont think he would call raise on flop with 6 7 since 10 would be scary card for him too.all in or fold but morelikelly all in

^ this guy did not even post at the » Introduce Yourself! > thread, > straight to trolling