Late in tourney, BTNvSB JJ

Submitted by : exalted

Full Tilt Poker Game #30220987782: FTOPS Event #41 (224535882), Table 47 - 1200/2400 Ante 300 - No Limit Hold'em - 07:11:32 CCT - 2011/05/01 19:11:32 ET - 2011/04/30
Seat 1: Hero (127,547)
Seat 2: Betong (126,277)
Seat 3: mcmark84 (50,637)
Seat 4: LUCKY89BLUNT (114,309)
Seat 5: Karrei71 (87,061)
Seat 6: AfricanDonkey (132,232)
Seat 7: Specunder (122,537)
Seat 8: michaelzino (116,621)
Seat 9: NatWork (88,825)
Hero antes 300
Betong antes 300
mcmark84 antes 300
LUCKY89BLUNT antes 300
Karrei71 antes 300
AfricanDonkey antes 300
Specunder antes 300
michaelzino antes 300
NatWork antes 300
Betong posts the small blind of 1,200
mcmark84 posts the big blind of 2,400
The button is in seat #1

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
LUCKY89BLUNT folds
Karrei71 folds
AfricanDonkey folds
Specunder folds
michaelzino folds
NatWork folds
Hero has 8 seconds left to act
Hero raises to 6,543
Betong calls 5,343
mcmark84 folds

Flop (Pot : $18,186.00)

   
Betong checks
Hero checks

Turn (Pot : $18,186.00)

   
Betong bets 9,600
Hero calls 9,600

River (Pot : $37,386.00)

   
Betong has 15 seconds left to act
Betong bets 26,400
Hero

i'd bet flop, and normally i'd fold river.he can have kj, kq, tj, prolly kt..and I think it's really not that likely of a board for him to barrel.

are we b/fing flop? if so, why?

also, we have JJ in our hand, providing blockers against KJ and JT.

flop would depend on player type.. sometimes i'd definitely bet fold, sometimes bet call. without reads i'd bet fold, but if you've played some orbits and seen him stab once at the pot and then give up, or if you have some button/blind history with him it can alter my play. if I called and he lead out turn i'd muck pretty quickly.

Is 3betting the turn not allowed?
I don't understand why you wouldn't do it, this seems like a perfect spot.

Do you have a particular reason to check flop behind? there is only 1 overcard, its btn vs SB? I always bet this flop here, but as played river is a clear fold to a winning tournament reg.

I think your image is quite important here. If you are active enough villain should be 3betting you a lot, you have blockers to almost anything that he does not 3bet pf.

I also don't quite understand why do u check back flop. I would b/c flop most of the time and fold when K comes and he leads.

i dont like the way you played this hand on any street. i suppose PF is okay, i suppose bet size is matter of opinion but i like 6k even instead of some tricky number, it gives the impression this hand has more of your attention than other hands (ie. big hand), and why even try to confuse pot odds with weird numbers pre flop?

this is not a good board at all to check behind on the flop....why did you check? i mean its very draw heavy here.....if you're checking you might as well just give up on the hand becaues there are going to be tons of cards you do not want to see pop up on turn and river.

low and behold a K turns, making every Kx hand that flatted and checked on flop, competing the JT draw (i know JT not very likely since you have JJ but still) and it gives the villain a great card to rep, as he is likely going to flat most of his King hands pre flop anyway instead of 3betting.

and river, in my opinion, is easy fold. whats he firing with on the river, after betting turn?

tricky numbers are easier to type than non- 2x or 3x bets, betting exactly 2.5 demands more attention than betting 2x+random

On May 05 2011 23:12 chris wrote: i dont like the way you played this hand on any street. i suppose PF is okay, i suppose bet size is matter of opinion but i like 6k even instead of some tricky number, it gives the impression this hand has more of your attention than other hands (ie. big hand), and why even try to confuse pot odds with weird numbers pre flop? this is not a good board at all to check behind on the flop....why did you check? i mean its very draw heavy here.....if you're checking you might as well just give up on the hand becaues there are going to be tons of cards you do not want to see pop up on turn and river. low and behold a K turns, making every Kx hand that flatted and checked on flop, competing the JT draw (i know JT not very likely since you have JJ but still) and it gives the villain a great card to rep, as he is likely going to flat most of his King hands pre flop anyway instead of 3betting. and river, in my opinion, is easy fold. whats he firing with on the river, after betting turn?

Regarding draw heavy: what cards we are actually afraid of except the K and an A?
We have blockers to QJ, KJ, JT,
and
99, KQ, AQ, AK would 3 bet pre

Is it standard to defend with K-rag here?
Also, once villain decides to rep a K, I think he will be barreling the river a lot IMHO. Sizing gives the feeling he's value-betting though.

Im pitching it. It's one of the worst board texture to make a hero call with. Although he's losing player it's unlikely for him to be bluffing with worse pair on turn/river. Only hands he doesn't have sd value is something like T8 or Ax and u can't be sure he'd bluff with that too.

And what's with the flop hate? I think the best play on the flop is checking. Turn is easy flat too having gutter and K hitting ur perceived range it's unlikely for him to fire another bomb without pair of K+ on the river

to me, I don't like flop because 1: winning pot is always good, and 2: there are almost no cards in the deck that improve my opponents perceived hand in a way that does not make it beat my hand, thus there's not too much value in checking.

I guess checking and intending on calling two low turn+rivers can work, but then you do have to deal with being fucked by A/K turn rivers.

Yea but chance of those 2cards falling is better then getting blown off the best hand. This is extremely gutter heavy flop with two suits. It's a board you should have high check back range against winning opponent. It's also a board where mediocre to avg plyrs would c-bet air without thinking twice. That said, with the given stack size, flop should be clear check back unless u are 100% sure villain would proceed the flop by calling with all their gutters. In that case, it'd be slightly better to bet, check turn and call most rivers.

On May 06 2011 10:16 AndrewSong wrote: Yea but chance of those 2cards falling is better then getting blown off the best hand. This is extremely gutter heavy flop with two suits. It's a board you should have high check back range against winning opponent. It's also a board where mediocre to avg plyrs would c-bet air without thinking twice. That said, with the given stack size, flop should be clear check back unless u are 100% sure villain would proceed the flop by calling with all their gutters. In that case, it'd be slightly better to bet, check turn and call most rivers.

But we have blockers to all those gutters! Why not let villain raise with a hand that has much less equity than he thinks? Isn't villain flatting most Qs on flop if we bet? (He hasn't 3bet us pre so there are not many AQ/KQ-s in his range).

On May 06 2011 10:51 pluzich wrote: Show nested quote + On May 06 2011 10:16 AndrewSong wrote: Yea but chance of those 2cards falling is better then getting blown off the best hand. This is extremely gutter heavy flop with two suits. It's a board you should have high check back range against winning opponent. It's also a board where mediocre to avg plyrs would c-bet air without thinking twice. That said, with the given stack size, flop should be clear check back unless u are 100% sure villain would proceed the flop by calling with all their gutters. In that case, it'd be slightly better to bet, check turn and call most rivers. But we have blockers to all those gutters! Why not let villain raise with a hand that has much less equity than he thinks? Isn't villain flatting most Qs on flop if we bet? (He hasn't 3bet us pre so there are not many AQ/KQ-s in his range).

Hmm? I'm not sure what your saying. How is jack a blocker to all the gutters? 67,78,86,8T,KT? Either way blockers are irrelevant here. We don't know if villain is playing small connectors and how he would react to a c-bet on this flop. So why would you want to c-bet in hopes to get raised when you have nothing but a fragile bluff catcher? If the reason is because you believe villain doesn't have much AQ/KQ in his range, you would be wrong and it's precisely the opposite. Hero and the villain is 50bb deep in end game stage of the tournament and his cold call in the SB is perceived strong then weak. 3betting AQ/QK as the villain would be over playing your hand.

I meant JJ is either a blocker (to JT etc.) or the villain is looking for a J (T8) which is twice less likely than villain may think.

Anyway I'm not quite sure I understand your reasoning. You are saying there are a lot of hands that can be out there drawing to a gutter, we have no idea which exactly, so let's give him a free card? Basically then half of the deck are scare cards for us, what do we do if a 6, 7, 8 comes and he leads? What do we do if a heart comes and he leads?

Also, what do you think is a proper 3betting range btn vs sb 50 BBs deep? I would think AQo is like nuts btn v sb but after your post started to have doubts

what are you hoping to accomplish by checking the flop? i dont get it? you check the flop so you can ______ the turn?

it looks to me like a little bit of fancy play syndrome. as for tricky numbers being easier to type, i dont think i understand your line of thinking.... it is just as easy to type 6 0 0 0 as it is 6 5 4 3

and as for the sizing of it, big blind is 2400, so 2x is 4800, 3x is 7200, so its pretty close to 2.5x as it is, i wasnt arguing the sizing was bad, just that making it random looking number implies you put more thought into your hand, which makes it much more likely its not a bluff, especially pre flop.


maybe i just completely suck, but i really, really dont like checking this flop. someoen said "what draws?!?! w have blockers!" well, there are hearts, there are some Jx hands, there could be 87s, AND YES villains defend with a lot of Kx hands here, and some Qx hands, and they very rarely/never have QQ KK AQ AK because the moneys going in pre.

its a wet board, so keep it simple and do what you can to win the pot, and gain chips. checking the flop just makes what should be a really simple, straighforward hand to play, complicated

we are making it easier for us to make a mistake

im trying to see what u guys see but im failing to understand how c-bet is an option here. only time bet would be good on the flop is if u know the reg would proceed with gutters by just calling and betting all rivers. I wouldn't even mind the whole world knowing I check jacks here all the time because all that would do is tricking the world that I'm more balanced then I really am. however, the world knowing that you bet jacks 100% on flop would leave your game to be completely exploitable. either way i'm prob right and u guys are wrong cuz im the guy who took down sunday mil and none of u have so believe what i say

im just trying to understand, dr song

whats turn plan on good/bad cards? are we always calling turn if he bets, why? are we betting turn if he checks? you dont think we are getting a bit ricky with 50 bbs?

educate us

also andrew he isnt losing player, hes a winning player. if hes a bad losing player i can see checking flop, but hes not. not sure if you misread OP or if that changes the way you see the hand

I think I pretty much said all the reasons why check > bet. Ur hand isn't strong enough to play for 2+ streets of value. Any card on turn/river would put u in tough decision to a bet once ur raised on the flop. So why give a chance for him to blow u off the hand? If this was 2008, i would agree that bet would've been better because not many plyrs "got it" like dudes today. U would've definately netted more money since most would opt to call flops with gutter and bet the river once checked.

Putting ur hand aside, this is a board ull most likely be getting action. Any reasonable hand beside AT AJ and some pockets will most likely be continuing the hand since they would have gutter,oesd,pair or fd. Not only that applys for him, it also applys for you(when raised). Difference is that u would also have ALOT of shit hands like J6, K8 u decided to steal from the button. So a plyr who "gets it" would know that a c/r will directly net him profit. And even when called, he should know that a lot of ur range consist of hands that's calling flop and mucking turn which nets him even more profit. So why take risk when your only info is that he's a winning reg?

Post is getting tl; dr I'm not a huge follower in balance my self but spots like these I think it's completely necessary to stay balanced when you have no info on the villain. It's not like you can reload in tourney when you get stacked. So it's best to stay away from tough spots while giving an illusion that you play a balanced game.

bb has 21 bbs, villain has 77/88 turning into a bluff and u called/were right OR he had set/AA and u got tarped

sb flat is super scary in these spots if hes a reg and doesnt know who u are, or if you are a reg and hes an unknown but seems like a reg especially considering the 21 bb stack behind both of you and guaranteed raise/reshove/fold only action that comes with being down to 40 players deep in a tourney

also dont listen to andrewsong even though he took down the sunday mil he cant cashout the money so it's like not winning it at all :D

On May 08 2011 23:10 RaiNKhAN wrote: also dont listen to andrewsong even though he took down the sunday mil he cant cashout the money so it's like not winning it at all :D

hahahaha

lol fml

1. if he has a hand with a lot of equity, we will be c/red and we do not want to be calling down with JJ. betting our hand to "protect" isn't great if we are "getting value from Kx and weak hands". If he has more equity than that we start to risk getting c/red which is horrible for us. The whole point of checking back flop is to see a safe turn where our equity advantage is higher.

We can still call turn on a K because the pot is small and we have added equity DUCY? Everyone who suggests b/c, fold to the turn barrel on K would be correct, but we would be losing more chips seeing less cards in position, which is horrible. If an unlikely Ace comes we can just fold to a single barrel by villain.

Also I assume his SB flat range here is strong. It is unlikely he has most low hearts. Villain can flat here with SB with AQs (another terrible hand that fishregs 3b) and then c/r me here.

2. i raise using these kinds of numbers every single hand. I didn't raise a "special" number this particular hand on the button with JJ. in tournaments a large % of players size bets like this.

the point of this thread was actually to talk about shoving over his river bet, which unfortunately nobody mentioned in the thread yet.

edits for clarity and profanity

well then case closed. shoving river is by far the worst option in the hand.

no but seriously, this isn't cash game. u dont have much invested and can't even use blockers to your advantage to credibly rep the nuts. he doesn't need only TJ to call ur shove. it's not like if you win this pot your gtd to cruise to final table. there's plenty of better spots to risk your chips. 46bb is very healthy stack with 40 left. there's no reason to answer to the devil and tilt it off

edit: woops

Definitely betting flop, as played though, pretty easy fold imo.

I think with over 50 bbs and a relatively small pot pf you have the right circumstances to get a little tricky. I think we should cbet flop here 100% of the time because well villain is in sb with a solid stack and probably*** could have alot of his middle range. My line would be bet fold to raise check turn and if river checked I would barrel because your line looks pretty heavy and you may see a q fold. Or fold check you do have substantial sd value but meh, I don't like checking that river if checked to me.