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Late in tourney, BTNvSB JJ

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exalted   United States. May 01 2011 08:30. Posts 2918

Submitted by : exalted

Full Tilt Poker Game #30220987782: FTOPS Event #41 (224535882), Table 47 - 1200/2400 Ante 300 - No Limit Hold'em - 07:11:32 CCT - 2011/05/01 19:11:32 ET - 2011/04/30
Seat 1: Hero (127,547)
Seat 2: Betong (126,277)
Seat 3: mcmark84 (50,637)
Seat 4: LUCKY89BLUNT (114,309)
Seat 5: Karrei71 (87,061)
Seat 6: AfricanDonkey (132,232)
Seat 7: Specunder (122,537)
Seat 8: michaelzino (116,621)
Seat 9: NatWork (88,825)
Hero antes 300
Betong antes 300
mcmark84 antes 300
LUCKY89BLUNT antes 300
Karrei71 antes 300
AfricanDonkey antes 300
Specunder antes 300
michaelzino antes 300
NatWork antes 300
Betong posts the small blind of 1,200
mcmark84 posts the big blind of 2,400
The button is in seat #1

Holecards
Dealt to HeroJdJs
LUCKY89BLUNT folds
Karrei71 folds
AfricanDonkey folds
Specunder folds
michaelzino folds
NatWork folds
Hero has 8 seconds left to act
Hero raises to 6,543
Betong calls 5,343
mcmark84 folds

Flop (Pot : $18,186.00)

   Qs5h9h
Betong checks
Hero checks

Turn (Pot : $18,186.00)

   Qs5h9hKd
Betong bets 9,600
Hero calls 9,600

River (Pot : $37,386.00)

   Qs5h9hKd6d
Betong has 15 seconds left to act
Betong bets 26,400
Hero



Villain here is a winning tournament player. There are ~40 left out of 900, we are in the money. Not sure if he ever flats here with AKo preflop but it seems like he can't have much of a value range here. Is that enough to make this a call?

exalted from teamliquid :o 

Liquid`Drone   Norway. May 01 2011 11:10. Posts 2113

i'd bet flop, and normally i'd fold river.he can have kj, kq, tj, prolly kt..and I think it's really not that likely of a board for him to barrel.

lol POKER 

exalted   United States. May 01 2011 11:13. Posts 2918

are we b/fing flop? if so, why?

also, we have JJ in our hand, providing blockers against KJ and JT.

exalted from teamliquid :o 

Liquid`Drone   Norway. May 01 2011 13:01. Posts 2113

flop would depend on player type.. sometimes i'd definitely bet fold, sometimes bet call. without reads i'd bet fold, but if you've played some orbits and seen him stab once at the pot and then give up, or if you have some button/blind history with him it can alter my play. if I called and he lead out turn i'd muck pretty quickly.

lol POKER 

ManofFire   United Kingdom. May 03 2011 01:48. Posts 140

Is 3betting the turn not allowed?
I don't understand why you wouldn't do it, this seems like a perfect spot.


Jun   Croatia. May 04 2011 10:57. Posts 825

Do you have a particular reason to check flop behind? there is only 1 overcard, its btn vs SB? I always bet this flop here, but as played river is a clear fold to a winning tournament reg.

Life is a coinflip 

pluzich   . May 05 2011 07:26. Posts 807

I think your image is quite important here. If you are active enough villain should be 3betting you a lot, you have blockers to almost anything that he does not 3bet pf.

I also don't quite understand why do u check back flop. I would b/c flop most of the time and fold when K comes and he leads.


chris   United States. May 05 2011 23:12. Posts 5296

i dont like the way you played this hand on any street. i suppose PF is okay, i suppose bet size is matter of opinion but i like 6k even instead of some tricky number, it gives the impression this hand has more of your attention than other hands (ie. big hand), and why even try to confuse pot odds with weird numbers pre flop?

this is not a good board at all to check behind on the flop....why did you check? i mean its very draw heavy here.....if you're checking you might as well just give up on the hand becaues there are going to be tons of cards you do not want to see pop up on turn and river.

low and behold a K turns, making every Kx hand that flatted and checked on flop, competing the JT draw (i know JT not very likely since you have JJ but still) and it gives the villain a great card to rep, as he is likely going to flat most of his King hands pre flop anyway instead of 3betting.

and river, in my opinion, is easy fold. whats he firing with on the river, after betting turn?

5 minute showers are my 8 minute abs. - Neilly 

Liquid`Drone   Norway. May 05 2011 23:58. Posts 2113

tricky numbers are easier to type than non- 2x or 3x bets, betting exactly 2.5 demands more attention than betting 2x+random

lol POKER 

pluzich   . May 06 2011 04:45. Posts 807


  On May 05 2011 23:12 chris wrote:
i dont like the way you played this hand on any street. i suppose PF is okay, i suppose bet size is matter of opinion but i like 6k even instead of some tricky number, it gives the impression this hand has more of your attention than other hands (ie. big hand), and why even try to confuse pot odds with weird numbers pre flop?

this is not a good board at all to check behind on the flop....why did you check? i mean its very draw heavy here.....if you're checking you might as well just give up on the hand becaues there are going to be tons of cards you do not want to see pop up on turn and river.

low and behold a K turns, making every Kx hand that flatted and checked on flop, competing the JT draw (i know JT not very likely since you have JJ but still) and it gives the villain a great card to rep, as he is likely going to flat most of his King hands pre flop anyway instead of 3betting.

and river, in my opinion, is easy fold. whats he firing with on the river, after betting turn?



Regarding draw heavy: what cards we are actually afraid of except the K and an A?
We have blockers to QJ, KJ, JT,
and
99, KQ, AQ, AK would 3 bet pre

Is it standard to defend with K-rag here?
Also, once villain decides to rep a K, I think he will be barreling the river a lot IMHO. Sizing gives the feeling he's value-betting though.


AndrewSong    United States. May 06 2011 08:52. Posts 2084

Im pitching it. It's one of the worst board texture to make a hero call with. Although he's losing player it's unlikely for him to be bluffing with worse pair on turn/river. Only hands he doesn't have sd value is something like T8 or Ax and u can't be sure he'd bluff with that too.

And what's with the flop hate? I think the best play on the flop is checking. Turn is easy flat too having gutter and K hitting ur perceived range it's unlikely for him to fire another bomb without pair of K+ on the river


Liquid`Drone   Norway. May 06 2011 09:48. Posts 2113

to me, I don't like flop because 1: winning pot is always good, and 2: there are almost no cards in the deck that improve my opponents perceived hand in a way that does not make it beat my hand, thus there's not too much value in checking.

I guess checking and intending on calling two low turn+rivers can work, but then you do have to deal with being fucked by A/K turn rivers.

lol POKER 

AndrewSong    United States. May 06 2011 10:16. Posts 2084

Yea but chance of those 2cards falling is better then getting blown off the best hand. This is extremely gutter heavy flop with two suits. It's a board you should have high check back range against winning opponent. It's also a board where mediocre to avg plyrs would c-bet air without thinking twice. That said, with the given stack size, flop should be clear check back unless u are 100% sure villain would proceed the flop by calling with all their gutters. In that case, it'd be slightly better to bet, check turn and call most rivers.


pluzich   . May 06 2011 10:51. Posts 807


  On May 06 2011 10:16 AndrewSong wrote:
Yea but chance of those 2cards falling is better then getting blown off the best hand. This is extremely gutter heavy flop with two suits. It's a board you should have high check back range against winning opponent. It's also a board where mediocre to avg plyrs would c-bet air without thinking twice. That said, with the given stack size, flop should be clear check back unless u are 100% sure villain would proceed the flop by calling with all their gutters. In that case, it'd be slightly better to bet, check turn and call most rivers.



But we have blockers to all those gutters! Why not let villain raise with a hand that has much less equity than he thinks? Isn't villain flatting most Qs on flop if we bet? (He hasn't 3bet us pre so there are not many AQ/KQ-s in his range).


AndrewSong    United States. May 07 2011 06:26. Posts 2084


  On May 06 2011 10:51 pluzich wrote:
Show nested quote +



But we have blockers to all those gutters! Why not let villain raise with a hand that has much less equity than he thinks? Isn't villain flatting most Qs on flop if we bet? (He hasn't 3bet us pre so there are not many AQ/KQ-s in his range).


Hmm? I'm not sure what your saying. How is jack a blocker to all the gutters? 67,78,86,8T,KT? Either way blockers are irrelevant here. We don't know if villain is playing small connectors and how he would react to a c-bet on this flop. So why would you want to c-bet in hopes to get raised when you have nothing but a fragile bluff catcher? If the reason is because you believe villain doesn't have much AQ/KQ in his range, you would be wrong and it's precisely the opposite. Hero and the villain is 50bb deep in end game stage of the tournament and his cold call in the SB is perceived strong then weak. 3betting AQ/QK as the villain would be over playing your hand.




pluzich   . May 07 2011 13:28. Posts 807

I meant JJ is either a blocker (to JT etc.) or the villain is looking for a J (T8) which is twice less likely than villain may think.

Anyway I'm not quite sure I understand your reasoning. You are saying there are a lot of hands that can be out there drawing to a gutter, we have no idea which exactly, so let's give him a free card? Basically then half of the deck are scare cards for us, what do we do if a 6, 7, 8 comes and he leads? What do we do if a heart comes and he leads?

Also, what do you think is a proper 3betting range btn vs sb 50 BBs deep? I would think AQo is like nuts btn v sb but after your post started to have doubts


chris   United States. May 07 2011 15:04. Posts 5296

what are you hoping to accomplish by checking the flop? i dont get it? you check the flop so you can ______ the turn?

it looks to me like a little bit of fancy play syndrome. as for tricky numbers being easier to type, i dont think i understand your line of thinking.... it is just as easy to type 6 0 0 0 as it is 6 5 4 3

and as for the sizing of it, big blind is 2400, so 2x is 4800, 3x is 7200, so its pretty close to 2.5x as it is, i wasnt arguing the sizing was bad, just that making it random looking number implies you put more thought into your hand, which makes it much more likely its not a bluff, especially pre flop.


maybe i just completely suck, but i really, really dont like checking this flop. someoen said "what draws?!?! w have blockers!" well, there are hearts, there are some Jx hands, there could be 87s, AND YES villains defend with a lot of Kx hands here, and some Qx hands, and they very rarely/never have QQ KK AQ AK because the moneys going in pre.

its a wet board, so keep it simple and do what you can to win the pot, and gain chips. checking the flop just makes what should be a really simple, straighforward hand to play, complicated

we are making it easier for us to make a mistake

5 minute showers are my 8 minute abs. - Neilly 

AndrewSong    United States. May 07 2011 17:14. Posts 2084

im trying to see what u guys see but im failing to understand how c-bet is an option here. only time bet would be good on the flop is if u know the reg would proceed with gutters by just calling and betting all rivers. I wouldn't even mind the whole world knowing I check jacks here all the time because all that would do is tricking the world that I'm more balanced then I really am. however, the world knowing that you bet jacks 100% on flop would leave your game to be completely exploitable. either way i'm prob right and u guys are wrong cuz im the guy who took down sunday mil and none of u have so believe what i say


chris   United States. May 07 2011 17:55. Posts 5296

im just trying to understand, dr song

whats turn plan on good/bad cards? are we always calling turn if he bets, why? are we betting turn if he checks? you dont think we are getting a bit ricky with 50 bbs?

educate us

5 minute showers are my 8 minute abs. - Neilly 

chris   United States. May 07 2011 17:58. Posts 5296

also andrew he isnt losing player, hes a winning player. if hes a bad losing player i can see checking flop, but hes not. not sure if you misread OP or if that changes the way you see the hand

5 minute showers are my 8 minute abs. - Neilly 

 
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