genjix2 United Kingdom. Nov 09 2010 20:35. Posts 46
Collusion is found using hypothesis testing. It says given a sample mean and standard deviation from our population of players, what is the chance these measured variables (standard deviation for folding hands, playing speed, ...) is down to chance?
If these probabilities are unacceptably low then you could have a bot. However if many of these variables are all low then you most likely do have a bot. These actions don't reflect how a human player would play.
That's what PokerStars means by statistical analysis. The more data to data mine and find patterns amongst, the better.
On October 16 2010 18:47 Fudyann wrote:
It is possible to play a hand of poker "peer to peer" or without a trusted party without anyone being able to cheat.
No, it is not. /thread
On February 19 2009 22:21 Confedrate wrote: i dont get it
On October 16 2010 18:47 Fudyann wrote:
It is possible to play a hand of poker "peer to peer" or without a trusted party without anyone being able to cheat.
No, it is not. /thread
Cheat as in fake your cards. Preventing collusion is also an easy problem to solve: simply make all matches headsup. The hard problem is solving it for ring games. Any ideas?
On October 16 2010 18:47 Fudyann wrote:
It is possible to play a hand of poker "peer to peer" or without a trusted party without anyone being able to cheat.
No, it is not. /thread
Cheat as in fake your cards. Preventing collusion is also an easy problem to solve: simply make all matches headsup. The hard problem is solving it for ring games. Any ideas?
No - 2 players in different parts of the world can always be on the phone and there is no way to even try to inspect them if you can't see their holecards or their previous hand histories or table selections.
Collusion is not a very big problem in poker. It's not really a problem at all frankly. My main worries as someone without computer security knowledge is security of hole cards and security of my money. Convince me of that and I'll play on your site in a shot and so will the fish - they don't care about collusion either.
Researchers used brain scans to show that when straight men looked at pictures of women in bikinis, areas of the brain that normally light up in anticipation of using tools, like spanners and screwdrivers, were activated.
We can log table selection and hand histories, just not hole cards. The whole point of the system is that it's impossible to see somebody's holecards without that person revealing them, and equally impossible to misrepresent your holecards.
On November 12 2010 01:47 Fudyann wrote:
We can log table selection and hand histories, just not hole cards. The whole point of the system is that it's impossible to see somebody's holecards without that person revealing them, and equally impossible to misrepresent your holecards.
Which brings me back to no it isn't. especially not p2p when it's infinity easier.
On February 19 2009 22:21 Confedrate wrote: i dont get it
1
jchysk United States. Nov 12 2010 09:16. Posts 435
The problem with recording holecards would be the possibility of abuse for investigations beyond collusion. You'd probably have to have a pretty sick analysis system for flagging statistical anomalies and only bring those up for review.
On November 11 2010 20:24 Oly wrote:
Collusion is not a very big problem in poker. It's not really a problem at all frankly. My main worries as someone without computer security knowledge is security of hole cards and security of my money. Convince me of that and I'll play on your site in a shot and so will the fish - they don't care about collusion either.
Don't agree with collusion. I think it would be an even larger problem on a site where people think they can get away with it. As far as security goes, I would feel more secure on an open source poker room than a proprietary closed client.
On November 12 2010 01:47 Fudyann wrote:
We can log table selection and hand histories, just not hole cards. The whole point of the system is that it's impossible to see somebody's holecards without that person revealing them, and equally impossible to misrepresent your holecards.
Which brings me back to no it isn't. especially not p2p when it's infinity easier.
Are you claiming that it's possible to see somebody's holecards without that person revealing them? If so, I think you probably don't understand the cryptography behind this.
i feel we cant really plan this thing to perfection unless someone makes one first for people to try it, even if it's just play money at first then just fix or check things as you move along and see actual probs. talking about this constantly will only kill interest as time goes by and it would be a shame to see this thing just fade away.i mean no disrespect in any way, i hugely support what you are trying to do. we gotta get a beta thing started if that's possible.
1
genjix2 United Kingdom. Nov 13 2010 09:04. Posts 46
im working on it. give me time jeez.
Can I have 4 beta testers please?
- You must be able to use IRC.
- Be able to arrange amongst yourself a playing time within a days notice.
- Participate in a mailing list to offer feedback.
The more the better since arranging testing sessions would be easier as everyone need not attend.
Plus points:
- Any technical knowledge like admin of Linux.
- Mac OSX users.
- Power users who use Windows a lot.
- Graphics artist.
I need various work done. Every small task slows me down and adds up from doing the balls & meat core tech.
P2P poker using Ripple uncentralized funding transfers
I was thinking about setting up a P2P open source poker game for some time and had already done much research on it's possibilities. My original plan was to use the already running open source pokerth game with some modifications that would allow a payment module to be plugged into it. The original plan of the payment system was to use bitcoins built in multisign scripting to allow for a completely uncentralized escrow method of payment. I had already done some programing in bitcoin and created a branch called multicoin that would enable testing using worthless crypto currency to start to just keep score and to test out if the idea would really work for real bitcoins first? I later had other interests and dropped out of my software development of Multicoin. I just recently went back to look again at what we now have in open source crypto finance and found something even better than bitcoin for poker p2p finance called Ripple. Ripple doesn't fully replace Bitcoin but it actually can be used to transact and auto convert bitcoin if desired to any desired currency at even faster speeds of 5 seconds per transaction compared to bitcoin that would take up to 1 hour at times to do a transaction. Ripple has everything we need to both play with real money in virtually any currency at the same time. Ripple not only provides a way to transact funds over a no name no address accounts much like bitcion with just a big number and secrete number, but also has the built in tools of multisign to allow again for the escrow to hold the pot of a game until the winners of the game are determined and can be paid out. Ripple being uncentralized much like Bitcoin can't be taken down or controlled by governments to sease assets and there is no central point of all assets that can just run off with all the money. It can also be setup to play in a virtual fake money to start that can be used just to keep score in the beginning and to test for problems so we can debug and fix them. And to also allow those to continue to play and just keep track of there score by looking at there virtual Ripple coin accounts to see there status. If that ends up working it would only require switching to the standard Ripple network to allow for real money games at cost per game money transactions of as little as 0.0001usd per game so we are taking about playing poker for 100 years for like $6 for a lifetime. Ripple also allows for controlled credit limit loans so you could even have poker bankers involved in the games if desired in real or fake money. Also since the cost of the transactions are so low you can also play in micro pots of like 1 cent or less even in real money. So at these numbers people wouldn't need to have so much trust to get started in it. Also inside of Ripple transactions there is memo data that can be added and used to add notes of what games the transaction was used for and who the players were that you won it from and what software was used in the game. One other thing I think that will be needed is a method of tracking trust of players. I'm sure there will be some cheaters or attempted cheaters, but at some point there will also be reputable people that many people will get to trust. With the cryptographic signatures you will be sure you are playing with the same people you know each time.
There are still many unanswered questions as to how all this would have to be setup to make it almost impossible to cheat or at least just work.
One feature I would like is that it would be cool if you could exit a game at any time and take what you already won or leave with what you have left. At this point this would be hard for me to do but not impossible.
At the beginning to make it simple all that join a poker game would be part of the multisign escrow. Each player would put in some random decided pot amount that would buy you some random number of chips to start the game. Each player would play until they have no chips left or have won the entire pot. Any number of players could play from 2 – 10 people. When the final two players finish the game the destination address for payment is set in the escrow by the winner and each of the players signs off that he was the winner so he gets the total funds transfered into his Ripple account. In the event that something goes wrong in the game for any reason. There can be a dispute of the group of players that would have to conclude with more than 50% that there was a problem with software or other. In this case all the money goes back to each of the players less a small transaction fee if needed in the Ripple transaction. Ripple also has time values that can be added into the escrow contract, so if no one signs the transaction over some period of time that would also be concluded as something went wrong and the money again returned to the original players. The escrow time can also be set to allow some time for the players to ether agree or setup a dispute. In most cases this would not be seen by the players. It would all be handled invisibly and automatically in most cases by the pokerth payment system. At some point we could also add a third party trusted entity to some games if desired that can mediate if needed in bigger money games. In this case the third party would most likely want some money to act in such a capacity.
On the side of cheating. How can we be sure that some players don't use a modified version of the open source game to allow them to cheat by looking at cards or changing card values in play? I'm hoping others can figure that one out as I'm not really sure. I haven't looked at the pokerth code that closely yet. I don't know anyone that presently cheats in pokerth but that maybe due to the fact that it's used to play with fake money not real. So until we get the fake money in Ripple working with pokerth, we can figure this part of the security out later if we find we need it. The cryptographic playing card section of p2p poker might be another project in itself for all I know. I can only say that I've played Pokerth for many hours with very few problems to date. It seems very stable as is.
See the references below for more details on the proposed multisign features of Ripple:
Also note that some of these multisign and contract features of Ripple are said to be future features. I'm looking to see if the code in any of the Github branches already has some at least partly working version of these features that we can start to test with. I see them speaking about it months ago that sounds like they almost had something. So we might just have to wait and see.
pokerth_accounting is ready for testing today not tomaro!! The Mental poker upgrade is mentioned in my wiki as in a future addition that would not be hard to add. The Mental poker c++ libs are already published and tested as seen on another github project that shows times to shuffle well within reason on todays computers. At this point my project is ready for testing. In it's present state we use Stellar.org testnet STR and trust line generated coins we call CHP (for chips). CHP are a worthless crypto currency that we will us just to keep score at this point and for testing the concept. The CHP coins are distributed to member players of pokerth from poker.surething.biz site in a one time 100,000 to start money. As far as other matters that can be a concern like collusion, With the Stellar uncentralized money system were all transaction can be seen by the public. We can track who was playing with who and when on every game ever played to research the possibility of collusion. From this information you can decide weather you want to play on a table with possible colluders or not. I've also added a primitive website that displays all the active members account ballances so you can compare you skills with others at http://poker.surething.biz . This site also contains the database to share your Stellar.org account numbers with other pokerth players. The pokerth_accounting program that runs in the background on your local system does everything invisibly without any added effort from the player of pokerth. After or durring the game you can analize your accounting with an sqlitebrowser to view what you paid who and when. Sqlitebrowser is also used to make changes in the configuration of the system allowing you to change currency or network to real money on a different network like Ripple or other. The software for the most part is completed ready to run but I'm sure we will be finding bugs to fix soon. That's why I need testers. There is no way I can test every function without realtime play involved. So if your willing to help us move this along take a look at our present evolving code at https://github.com/sacarlson/pokerth_accounting/wiki and https://github.com/sacarlson/pokerth_accounting. If you have any question you can find me at #pokerth IRC or even on pokerth game chat as sacarlson or leave me a note on github. Oh and again on the mater of Mental poker algorithm, the present game uses servers that no one ( should say not many) people have access to. So until we start playing with big money I'm not going to wory about it. Remember with Stellar.org that even in real money we can play with very small pots of even less than 1 cent worth of crypto currency of say STR. Transaction costs are so small even in real money (non testnet) the costs would be less than $3 for about 100 years (more than a life time) of play. On testnet in it's present default settings it is completely free. I should note that the next upgrade we are pushing is implementing the built in uncentralized escrow system on Stellar.org. With that and Mental poker added it should be about done. So give it a try and find out for yourself just how close we really are. The open source code can be see here: https://github.com/sacarlson/pokerth_accountinghttps://github.com/sacarlson/pokerth_accounting/wiki
On July 09 2015 03:57 sacarlson wrote:
pokerth_accounting is ready for testing today not tomaro!! The Mental poker upgrade is mentioned in my wiki as in a future addition that would not be hard to add. The Mental poker c++ libs are already published and tested as seen on another github project that shows times to shuffle well within reason on todays computers. At this point my project is ready for testing. In it's present state we use Stellar.org testnet STR and trust line generated coins we call CHP (for chips). CHP are a worthless crypto currency that we will us just to keep score at this point and for testing the concept. The CHP coins are distributed to member players of pokerth from poker.surething.biz site in a one time 100,000 to start money. As far as other matters that can be a concern like collusion, With the Stellar uncentralized money system were all transaction can be seen by the public. We can track who was playing with who and when on every game ever played to research the possibility of collusion. From this information you can decide weather you want to play on a table with possible colluders or not. I've also added a primitive website that displays all the active members account ballances so you can compare you skills with others at http://poker.surething.biz . This site also contains the database to share your Stellar.org account numbers with other pokerth players. The pokerth_accounting program that runs in the background on your local system does everything invisibly without any added effort from the player of pokerth. After or durring the game you can analize your accounting with an sqlitebrowser to view what you paid who and when. Sqlitebrowser is also used to make changes in the configuration of the system allowing you to change currency or network to real money on a different network like Ripple or other. The software for the most part is completed ready to run but I'm sure we will be finding bugs to fix soon. That's why I need testers. There is no way I can test every function without realtime play involved. So if your willing to help us move this along take a look at our present evolving code at https://github.com/sacarlson/pokerth_accounting/wiki and https://github.com/sacarlson/pokerth_accounting. If you have any question you can find me at #pokerth IRC or even on pokerth game chat as sacarlson or leave me a note on github. Oh and again on the mater of Mental poker algorithm, the present game uses servers that no one ( should say not many) people have access to. So until we start playing with big money I'm not going to wory about it. Remember with Stellar.org that even in real money we can play with very small pots of even less than 1 cent worth of crypto currency of say STR. Transaction costs are so small even in real money (non testnet) the costs would be less than $3 for about 100 years (more than a life time) of play. On testnet in it's present default settings it is completely free. I should note that the next upgrade we are pushing is implementing the built in uncentralized escrow system on Stellar.org. With that and Mental poker added it should be about done. So give it a try and find out for yourself just how close we really are. The open source code can be see here: https://github.com/sacarlson/pokerth_accountinghttps://github.com/sacarlson/pokerth_accounting/wiki
^Man, look at your post. You think anyone is actually gonna try and go through that monstrosity?
If you're trying to advertise to get people to try out your software, at least make the pitch cleaner and more inviting. Perhaps get a friend to clean it up if you struggle with english or something.
If you're trying to advertise to get people to try out your software, at least make the pitch cleaner and more inviting. Perhaps get a friend to clean it up if you struggle with english or something.
On the one hand it's not relevant because there are bigger further along projects on the go, that this person seems unaware of. On the other hand it uses ripple which is like a big bank friendly version of bitcoin, a competitor but not at all the same thing as bitcoin. Then I think this makes 4 or more projects of p2p poker.
On July 09 2015 15:16 devon06atX wrote:
[]^Man, look at your post. You think anyone is actually gonna try and go through that monstrosity?
If you're trying to advertise to get people to try out your software, at least make the pitch cleaner and more inviting. Perhaps get a friend to clean it up if you struggle with english or something.
Good point thanks for the feedback. ya next time I'll make it shorter. like maybe...
Pokerth_accounting is a fully functional program module that runs along side pokerth, that allows people to play FREE P2P poker with real or imaginary money using new fast uncentralized crypto currency methods see https://github.com/sacarlson/pokerth_accounting/wiki for details, we've added many new features.
On July 09 2015 15:16 devon06atX wrote:
[]^Man, look at your post. You think anyone is actually gonna try and go through that monstrosity?
If you're trying to advertise to get people to try out your software, at least make the pitch cleaner and more inviting. Perhaps get a friend to clean it up if you struggle with english or something.
Good point thanks for the feedback. ya next time I'll make it shorter. like maybe...
Pokerth_accounting is a fully functional program module that runs along side pokerth, that allows people to play FREE P2P poker with real or imaginary money using new fast uncentralized crypto currency methods see https://github.com/sacarlson/pokerth_accounting/wiki for details, we've added many new features.
On July 09 2015 15:16 devon06atX wrote:
[]^Man, look at your post. You think anyone is actually gonna try and go through that monstrosity?
If you're trying to advertise to get people to try out your software, at least make the pitch cleaner and more inviting. Perhaps get a friend to clean it up if you struggle with english or something.
Good point thanks for the feedback. ya next time I'll make it shorter. like maybe...
Pokerth_accounting is a fully functional program module that runs along side pokerth, that allows people to play FREE P2P poker with real or imaginary money using new fast uncentralized crypto currency methods see https://github.com/sacarlson/pokerth_accounting/wiki for details, we've added many new features.
You have a security leak and so your project cannot fly. Tweet by btc core dev P Todd, retweet by Szabo (btc's guru):
