NL 2/5 live KK hand and general discussion

I am going to post the entire hand since I want comments on the situation in general rather than a bunch of "lol allin" or "lol fold" comments. In my experience this spot is, while uncommon, isn't so uncommon in live games as not to be given consideration.

Villain in the hand is a regular. He is somewhat competent for live play. Not particularly courageous or bluffy at all. He will make pretty retarded limp-calls pre-flop, as most live players are prone to doing. His only real bluffiness that I have seen is along the lines of, hey imma limp-call a raise and a 3bet pre because if you have AK and miss I can take the pot on river cuz I soul read you, so I have no problem playing 22 OOP in huge pot.

About an orbit and a half before the hand in question I took about $500 off him when in raised pot I called in LP w 54cc. He lead out out of turn for half pot on 874r. I raised because I've seen him make that lead with weak hands. He called. Turn was a 3c, giving me a FD. He checked, I bet again. River was another 4 giving me trips, he checked I bet big and he called after thinking for a while, and bitched afterwards, so I think he either had something like 99 or 87 for flopped 2P. He seemed pretty peeved about that hand and kept muttering and shaking his head as if had just walked through cobwebs.

Anyway, the hand in question I get dealt KdKs in late MP. The reg and I are over $1600 deep (so over 300 BBs). The entire world limps, and I make it 50. A fish who's been calling every hand calls behind me, and the reg pretty quickly and confidently makes it $200 from SB. At that point, I am already saying to myself that he has AA there A TON. Only mitigating factor is that if he is trying to bluff because he is even more peeved about that 54s hand tha I had thought and knows that I like to raise limped pots in general. All limpers fold, and I call very apprehensive because this sudden aggression when he almost never 3bets and we are quite deep is pretty telling. Plus his confident demeanor. My plan pre-flop is to call flop and if he persist to give him credit for AA and fold because I figured that if he is peeved and bluffing, he'll have enough stones for flop bet and that's it.

So I call, and the fish behind me also calls, but his stack is just a bit over $500, so he is like 40% of his stack in.

Flop comes 6d4d2c. The reg insta-leads $500 into $600 pot. I was planning to call the flop bet, but this is huge--live regs really don't make these huge no fear bets as bluffs, even as tilt bluffs. I really fucking wana fold right then. But since I am still considering that he may be influenced by that 54 hand, I make the call. I have about 900 behind with 700 invested in the pot. Fish also calls and is now all-in. I give him no credit what so ever. He's just a pot sweetener.

Turn is 5d. Reg insta-ships all-in. I have the Kd, but at that point he always has AA, so I flm and fold. Fish is already all-in and hand goes to showdown. Reg has AdAc but loses to the fish who had 55 and turned a set. Fish scoops $1500 main pot, reg takes a $400 sidepot and proceeds from the clearing cobwebs off his face stage into head explosion initiation stage. Since river was Kh that would have won me $3800 pot, I am tempted to join him.

Anyway, what I am looking for here is comments from people with experience playing live regarding playing KK with awareness of AA. In my experience live games play a lot more passive pre-flop for most part, and combined with it being full ring, KK vs AA is something real you need to worry about and have to learn to dodge. Honestly, afterwards I felt I misplayed that hand. If that 54 hand had not occured, I think I would have just called pre-flop for set mining, knowing that fish wasn't folding and definitely would have pitched it on the flop. So I felt I gave that bit of pre-history a bit too much credit and not enough credit to my own pre-flop read. What are your guys' views on this whole KK vs AA in live games situation? When I was starting playing live, I definitely had several occasions where I strongly suspected people had AA, but did not give that read enough credit, and lost as a result. It is not at all like online games. In live, when your KK is good PF, you KNOW it's good PF. If you start having doubts, in my experience they tend to be warranted.

Thoughts? Comments?

PS: sorry didn't mean to write a book.

Wait, you forgot to tell us which cards are wild.

you have to consider that a lot of people are not capable of jamming in hundreds if not thousands of dollars on a bluff. If you have not really seen him do it. then you should just give him the benefit of the doubt and fold.

On August 26 2010 18:29 phexac wrote: I am going to post the entire hand since I want comments on the situation in general rather than a bunch of "lol allin" or "lol fold" comments. In my experience this spot is, while uncommon, isn't so uncommon in live games as not to be given consideration. Villain in the hand is a regular. He is somewhat competent for live play. Not particularly courageous or bluffy at all. He will make pretty retarded limp-calls pre-flop, as most live players are prone to doing. His only real bluffiness that I have seen is along the lines of, hey imma limp-call a raise and a 3bet pre because if you have AK and miss I can take the pot on river cuz I soul read you, so I have no problem playing 22 OOP in huge pot. About an orbit and a half before the hand in question I took about $500 off him when in raised pot I called in LP w 54cc. He lead out out of turn for half pot on 874r. I raised because I've seen him make that lead with weak hands. He called. Turn was a 3c, giving me a FD. He checked, I bet again. River was another 4 giving me trips, he checked I bet big and he called after thinking for a while, and bitched afterwards, so I think he either had something like 99 or 87 for flopped 2P. He seemed pretty peeved about that hand and kept muttering and shaking his head as if had just walked through cobwebs. Anyway, the hand in question I get dealt KdKs in late MP. The reg and I are over $1600 deep (so over 300 BBs). The entire world limps, and I make it 50. A fish who's been calling every hand calls behind me, and the reg pretty quickly and confidently makes it $200 from SB. At that point, I am already saying to myself that he has AA there A TON. Only mitigating factor is that if he is trying to bluff because he is even more peeved about that 54s hand tha I had thought and knows that I like to raise limped pots in general. All limpers fold, and I call very apprehensive because this sudden aggression when he almost never 3bets and we are quite deep is pretty telling. Plus his confident demeanor. My plan pre-flop is to call flop and if he persist to give him credit for AA and fold because I figured that if he is peeved and bluffing, he'll have enough stones for flop bet and that's it. So I call, and the fish behind me also calls, but his stack is just a bit over $500, so he is like 40% of his stack in. Flop comes 6d4d2c. The reg insta-leads $500 into $600 pot. I was planning to call the flop bet, but this is huge--live regs really don't make these huge no fear bets as bluffs, even as tilt bluffs. I really fucking wana fold right then. But since I am still considering that he may be influenced by that 54 hand, I make the call. I have about 900 behind with 700 invested in the pot. Fish also calls and is now all-in. I give him no credit what so ever. He's just a pot sweetener. Turn is 5d. Reg insta-ships all-in. I have the Kd, but at that point he always has AA, so I flm and fold. Fish is already all-in and hand goes to showdown. Reg has AdAc but loses to the fish who had 55 and turned a set. Fish scoops $1500 main pot, reg takes a $400 sidepot and proceeds from the clearing cobwebs off his face stage into head explosion initiation stage. Since river was Kh that would have won me $3800 pot, I am tempted to join him. Anyway, what I am looking for here is comments from people with experience playing live regarding playing KK with awareness of AA. In my experience live games play a lot more passive pre-flop for most part, and combined with it being full ring, KK vs AA is something real you need to worry about and have to learn to dodge. Honestly, afterwards I felt I misplayed that hand. If that 54 hand had not occured, I think I would have just called pre-flop for set mining, knowing that fish wasn't folding and definitely would have pitched it on the flop. So I felt I gave that bit of pre-history a bit too much credit and not enough credit to my own pre-flop read. What are your guys' views on this whole KK vs AA in live games situation? When I was starting playing live, I definitely had several occasions where I strongly suspected people had AA, but did not give that read enough credit, and lost as a result. It is not at all like online games. In live, when your KK is good PF, you KNOW it's good PF. If you start having doubts, in my experience they tend to be warranted. Thoughts? Comments? PS: sorry didn't mean to write a book.

omg I read the whole post

calling 100bb on the flop and folding later in the hand doesn't add up for me

also u got tunnel visioned on your dynamic with the reg, there's a 3rd player in this pot altering the regs decisions when the flop rolls around

I play 2/5 too
Your tables must be really really passive to not 4bet KK pre versus a squeeze when you are late position Oo
As played I jam the flop , because we've got KK ffs !
He can have QQ , maybe JJ , random FD (it's a squeeze) , and think is commited with AK
I can't consider folding KK in this spot at 2/5 , 1/2 probably but 2/5 definitely not.

say some shit like 'i have straight flush plz quad up one time' while putting chips in and hope they muck :D

I been playing a lot of live lately, and your read was pretty much dead on, even when tilted these nitty live regs wouldnt do that without AA, Nice hand up until you called 500, no good cards come except for a K.

also following the logic train, you just showed down a crappy hand that improved, he's not gonna go crazy on you, because he thinks he played well and just got unlucky, so hes probably not gonna try to bluff you off a hand, and is more likely to play more straight forward and more aggressively

flop sounds like a fold.

Trust your reads


Be the ball

Nanananananana

i agree with everything that you said

Just one of those hands.I don't think you should overthink it.It is all about the process of thinking of a live player and in this case I think you just miss some important points.First of all in live games AA is considered almost as strong as KK, QQ and not alwayas but you could very well put JJ in the company.It's simply the fact that when you get used to live poker you realise that you may not see those hands for sessions so their relative strenght is rising.So, in my opinion if this is a really competent reg, and noticed that you are willing to play a wider range of hands, then a strong play like this could mean at least 5 or 6 different pocket hands, cause AKs +AQs is also a good hand for strong play preflop.And flop, even if you're right you still got 2 outs, so...I dont think it's profitable in long time terms to fold KK in this spot.

flop is a fold, good read of situation but yeah if he bet like 325 or something i'd prob call down

On August 31 2010 08:32 YouGoTGoT wrote: Trust your reads Be the ball Nanananananana

kinda hard with you talking like that