KK oop bad river rush50

so no reads on villain as i have 8 hands on him. so i think i played it pretty standard up to the river and i was obviously shoving any other river than A or J. i think my bet sizing is pretty much right where i want as i was trying to milk him for value from KJ+ QQ, and w.e draws he might have. also, i felt my bet sizing gets 1 extra street of value (the flop) from possibly 88 or something).

my question is do i shove this river for value or c/c to bluffcatch or c/f?
QK AQ AJ AT AK all got there which are in his range and i dunt reali see him claling 2 streets with air so i feel like he would check back though hands with showdown such as KJ QQ.

i'm leaning towards a c/f and then a shove for THIN value and putting c/c as the worst option.

Submitted by : wakamaru

***** Hand History for Game 23254460033 ***** (Full Tilt)
$50.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, August 21, 01:22:20 ET 2010
Table Supercharger (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Seat 1: Mr playalot ( $49.00 USD )
Seat 2: zloVkvetinaci ( $69.60 USD )
Seat 3: Skills_innit ( $147.75 USD )
Seat 4: HowDoMyNutzTste ( $50.00 USD )
Seat 5: Hero ( $138.95 USD )
Seat 6: squale12 ( $108.85 USD )
HowDoMyNutzTste posts small blind $0.25 USD.
Hero posts big blind $0.50 USD.

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
squale12 folds
Mr playalot raises $1.75 USD
zloVkvetinaci folds
Skills_innit folds
HowDoMyNutzTste folds
Hero raises $5.50 USD
Mr playalot calls $4.25 USD

Flop (Pot : $11.75)

   
Hero bets $6.50 USD
Mr playalot calls $6.50 USD

Turn (Pot : $24.75)

   
Hero bets $12.00 USD
Mr playalot calls $12.00 USD

River (Pot : $48.75)

   
Hero

C/F is definitely the best play here with no reads.

he rarely has an A here, therefore i am inclined to say shove, but he will prob never call with worse and only own you with random nuts like AJ, or JJ. because of the 3s and As he doesn't really have a AKs or AQs type hand either.

good spot to bet 5

just restarted playing, but why won't you make it slightly more on flop / turn?

i made it less since i can get allin by river anyways with a half pot which is SOOO tempting and also i want to extract max value from his WHOLE range. like in this example, it seems like i missed value from AJ and QQ or w.e but by making it smaller, i might cause him to spazz the flop with like a gutshot or call me with 88. i'm pretty confident i didnt play it poorly until the river. like i think different bet sizing lines could be taken and sometimes i do bet hard on the flop and jam the turn but in this thread i'm trying to figure out how to approach fucked up rivers. like i dunno wat i do if i had AK here, i'd probably just shove but i dunno if that is the best play =T

true, but all if u think about his range alot of high cards hit the flop

i like the flop size but i hate the turn size
once he call the flop , make ihm put money in
so bet more turn shove rest on river
as played... prolly shove river, or check it , i dont think hes gona bet often anyway

wat would u but on the turn? the pot is 25 and he has 37 left. if ibet like 19 it's like essentially shoving so i should just shove the turn but that looks pretty strong there i think. i think my percieved range would be QQ+ and AQss or AKss.

with the stacksizes being what they are maybe it's better to 3/4 the flop, then shove the turn.

ideally i like your flop but would def increase the turn

you make it seem like looking strong on the turn is a bad thing. imo i would shove that turn since i would not mind seeing a fold as we only have an overpair.
not sure about your image, but i definitely think your perceived range is QQ+ / AK, i don't think most unknowns will ever put you on AQ here. someone correct me if im wrong plz.

in addition, i think QQ / AJ is always calling your turn shove, so there isn't much of a need to "milk it" plus i don't really like the idea of putting an unknown on a hand like KJ, i think that's a bit wide esp for Rush

theres $36 remaining on the turn. think a lot of ppl saying to shove the turn are being result oriented.

On August 23 2010 12:14 [sK] wrote: imo i would shove that turn since i would not mind seeing a fold as we only have an overpair.

i usually like getting called when im betting for value with KK in a 3b pot.

joLin help me out then.. what kind of range are you putting the villain on? bc i disagree with the poster's assigned range.. outside of KQ i don't really think there are too many other draws we can assign this unknown without any sort of history... maybe 89s? but from what i've noticed in the Rush games especially is that the average villain now is becoming much tighter then looser, especially with hands like suited connectors.

so my range for the villain is TT, JJ, QQ, AA, AJ, KQ.. maybe 89, maybe 66 (but w/o history i think it's a bit of a stretch), i think we also throw in AsKs, because i don't really see how other AK combos can continue past the turn w/o the betting initiative. thoughts on this range? too narrow?

so the hands we're getting value from on the turn (AJ, QQ, KQ, AsKs) i feel like we're always stacking. in addition, i don't think we like to see any A, any Q, any 9, or any spade on the river.. so why not charge more for it?

granted, it is an overbet, which is precisely why i think the optimal line is to bet like $9-$10 on the flop, setting up the pot on the turn to be around $30ish, so we can just put him AI for his remaining $20.

the poster's line puts us in so many gross river spots where we're trying to soul read with a check/call bluff catch and straight up burning money with a check/fold.

i just feel like shoving safe rivers is being way too passive, when we could've just got it AI on the turn with proper bet sizing, charging his draws, forcing him to possibly make big lay downs and fold whatever equity he has against us, or call when he is behind.

Make it higher on flop and ship turn is best play

i think you make too many assumptions about what the guy can be calling your 3bet with when we know nothing about him. i dont play rush so im not sure what the dynamic is like, but on a decently dry, safe board i think we can prob get calls from a slightly wider range with OPs flop bet and a slightly bigger turn bet (with intention to shove the river). theres not really that many cards we hate other than an A.

i'm sure he could peel one with an under pocket pair some time to my small flop bet. and this is just a side point but can i defend my smaller bet sizing by saying this lets me bluff cheaper in the times i dunt have it in a 3bet pot? being a bit results oriented i should have obviously potted the flop and shoved the turn but i'm not relai worried about that. i ususally mix it up between a large turn bet like pot and the one i took here based on my random feeling at the time so this thread is basically asking if there's a better bet sizing that i should just take for like 100% of the spots. as for the flop bet sizing, i think 7.5 is the most i would make it since i get lighter peels and makes my bluff cheapers (take from JCL's nl200 videos on cardrunners).

Your flop and turn bets are extremely small, especially on the turn, come on bro

waka, i like the 1/2 pot flop bet a lot in all cases where you could go----> 1/2 - 3/4 or in between on the turn and then have a riverbet left in your stack. But such is not the case. You cant really construct a decent 3 barrel. so construct a good 2 barrel.

getting a good bet sizing for 100% of spots is impossible

not too happy 1/2'ing 3bet pots liek this with two broadway cards. this is probably gonna turn really bad for u with almost any broadway turn card, so id just bet flop so i can bet any turn for the rest.