did i fuck this hand up?

couldnt put him on a hand that would check behind sa turn and actually beat my hand on the river, should i have just bet/folded river or is this fine?
fucking pot limit reraise size
now that i see it, this was kinda bad , bet/fold river?
Submitted by : whamm!

***** Hand History for Game 48349895688 ***** Poker Stars
$50.00 USD PL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, August 18, 07:55:45 ET 2010
Table Alauda Real Money
Seat 4 is the button
Seat 1: Zirakus $29.30 USD
Seat 2: Omecr0n $59.75 USD
Seat 3: roflushh $15.65 USD
Seat 4: petzergling $50.00 USD
Seat 5: aleh2222 $96.15 USD
Seat 6: Hero $50.00 USD
Seat 7: werd2u $64.40 USD
Seat 8: ACE9379 $15.75 USD
Seat 9: alex_anons $61.75 USD
aleh2222 posts small blind [$0.25 USD].
Hero posts big blind [$0.50 USD].

Holecards
Dealt to Hero [ ]
werd2u raises [$1.50 USD]
ACE9379 folds
alex_anons folds
Zirakus folds
Omecr0n folds
roflushh folds
petzergling folds
aleh2222 folds
Hero raises [$4.25 USD]
werd2u calls [$3.25 USD]

Flop (Pot : $9.25)

   
Hero bets [$7.00 USD]
werd2u calls [$7.00 USD]

Turn (Pot : $23.25)

   
Hero checks
werd2u checks

River (Pot : $23.25)

   
Hero checks
werd2u bets [$22.60 USD]
Hero calls [$22.60 USD]
werd2u shows
werd2u wins $65.95 USD from main pot
Hero doesn't show

don't be results oriented this was fine, obv an idiot if hes raising 98o UTG and calling 3bets with it

pre-flop is good, though at $50 you should consider an AI shove

The flop is not a good one for you. You've clearly defined your hand as TT+, AJS+ and AK, as you have not hit anything hard in your likely range, He will put you on air or TT+. I think with a set he more likely to re-raise here as a scare hard would kill action and he still has to worry about you hitting a bigger set.. If you auto c-bet you should c-bet here; if not a check would of helped you define his hand.

The turn: a scare card hots and you show weakness, he checks behind.

The river you check behind again screaming "I'm weak"
You've eliminated completely: over cards; strong sets; straights and bluffs from your range.

His bet screams set or straight, a floater would have bet the turn as you were already showing weakness.

Grade pre-flop play A, post flop play F

If you're going to play like this shove AI more pre-flop, at $50 NL you'll still get lots of callers

On August 18 2010 23:56 Snaggle wrote: pre-flop is good, though at $50 you should consider an AI shove The flop is not a good one for you. You've clearly defined your hand as TT+, AJS+ and AK, as you have not hit anything hard in your likely range, He will put you on air or TT+. I think with a set he more likely to re-raise here as a scare hard would kill action and he still has to worry about you hitting a bigger set.. If you auto c-bet you should c-bet here; if not a check would of helped you define his hand. The turn: a scare card hots and you show weakness, he checks behind. The river you check behind again screaming "I'm weak" You've eliminated completely: over cards; strong sets; straights and bluffs from your range. His bet screams set or straight, a floater would have bet the turn as you were already showing weakness. Grade pre-flop play A, post flop play F If you're going to play like this shove AI more pre-flop, at $50 NL you'll still get lots of callers

No this is just downright bad advice. You played this decently but I think his potting the river looks a little strong, I'm probably folding there. If he bet's like half pot I call, and you could also consider betting like 1/3 pot and folding to a raise if you don't think he makes moves.

On August 19 2010 00:43 soberstone wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2010 23:56 Snaggle wrote: pre-flop is good, though at $50 you should consider an AI shove The flop is not a good one for you. You've clearly defined your hand as TT+, AJS+ and AK, as you have not hit anything hard in your likely range, He will put you on air or TT+. I think with a set he more likely to re-raise here as a scare hard would kill action and he still has to worry about you hitting a bigger set.. If you auto c-bet you should c-bet here; if not a check would of helped you define his hand. The turn: a scare card hots and you show weakness, he checks behind. The river you check behind again screaming "I'm weak" You've eliminated completely: over cards; strong sets; straights and bluffs from your range. His bet screams set or straight, a floater would have bet the turn as you were already showing weakness. Grade pre-flop play A, post flop play F If you're going to play like this shove AI more pre-flop, at $50 NL you'll still get lots of callers No this is just downright bad advice. You played this decently but I think his potting the river looks a little strong, I'm probably folding there. If he bet's like half pot I call, and you could also consider betting like 1/3 pot and folding to a raise if you don't think he makes moves.

Explain how it's bad. I did not put anything in pokerstove; but assumed he was ahead on the flop and would be called by these hands.

49,500 games 0.005 secs 9,900,000 games/sec

Board: 8d 6c 7s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 60.052% 58.43% 01.63% 28921 804.50 { AhAs }
Hand 1: 39.948% 38.32% 01.63% 18970 804.50 { KK-66, JTs, T9s, 98s }


---



---
49,500 games 0.005 secs 9,900,000 games/sec

Board: 8d 6c 7s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 60.052% 58.43% 01.63% 28921 804.50 { AhAs }
Hand 1: 39.948% 38.32% 01.63% 18970 804.50 { KK-66, JTs, T9s, 98s }


---



---
1,496 games 0.005 secs 299,200 games/sec

Board: 8d 6c 7s 5s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.793% 28.48% 06.32% 426 94.50 { AhAs }
Hand 1: 65.207% 58.89% 06.32% 881 94.50 { KK-QQ, 99-66, T9s, 98s }-poker stove

I thought he was massively behind on the turn, again based on intuition/judgement anything that bets the river is likely pretty strong or calls a bet on the turn.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,496 games 0.005 secs 299,200 games/sec

Board: 8d 6c 7s 5s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.793% 28.48% 06.32% 426 94.50 { AhAs }
Hand 1: 65.207% 58.89% 06.32% 881 94.50 { KK-QQ, 99-66, T9s, 98s }

Of course with what this player raised you're right, but results oriented, a generic player would have a much tighter range here than the actual range of the villain and likely has bluffs in his range.

Saying that "advice is bad" does not say anything unless one says how.

river is my only concern here. preflop allin to utg raise? lol i dont think that's any good man
i was thinking river i would ( and might get value from kk-1010) but at the back of my mind i look so much like ak with the line i took and decided last minute to bluffcatch , now i realize by betting the river i coudlve prob saved some money by bet/folding 15 (instead of c/c 23) and get value from hands like kk/qq maybe jj/1010, and bluffcatching would make no sense since no one who peels flop is ever turning hands into bluff when they know i either have ak or a hand im not folding to a psb on river (aa-kk)

i didnt realize pot limit holdem reraise maximum size in this spot is a lot smaller than nl pot reraise sizes.

I think you've kinda summed it up yourself. The preflop is obv fine, since this is limit you can't even shove and I would think that's a silly play if you can get people to call with these types of speculative hands where they'll have to ch/c a lot of flops and miss the turns. I too kinda feel like you can get away with betting flop, checking turn and betting river since he's never gonna turn any overpair into a bluff (or atleast we can assume he's not gonna think he's beat and just get you out of your hand). I sincerely doubt that he's ever, ever, ever bluffraising a riverbet of like 13 or whatever and will always call his TT+-type hands. If he raises, just fold like you've figured out already.

I'm not superduperhappy about your line but it seems just like one I'd take whilst actually playing, so I shouldn't complain. I can't really imagine your line to be bad though, I just think that bet, check, betting might be better against most players at 50nl.

as played yeah prob c/f . too many tables was a bit on tilt too coz session was going so terribly lol

First of all shoving AI pf is extremely bad and you are going to miss an insane amount of value if you try to 3bet shove 100BB here.

Second of all, your right, I shouldn't have called your advice bad because you didn't give advice. All you did was say that his PF was good (and then proceeded to say he should have shoved?)..... and then said his postflop was horrible while making vague statements and not tying them into any sort of strategy.

C/C this turn is good, if he hasn't made his hand by the turn then it is very unlikely that he will river you so there is nothing you need to protect and clearly if he does have a made hand you are only going to give him one street of value. I don't have a problem with bet/folding turn either, but you need to check/fold river if he calls.

River is probably a fold, I would have preferred betting small and folding to a raise depending on player type. If he's aggro. I like your line.

theres always a concern that i get river raised allin when i bet smallish which almost never happens at lowstakes haha. better start thinking that most ppl here dont have that kind of weapon as a bluff at 50nl and just bet/fold more at the river vs standard regs instead c/c

I don't like the call on the river; however, I think I'd end up playing the hand the same way.

snaggle do you even play poker?

i play hand the same except fold da river.

On August 19 2010 03:03 whamm! wrote: theres always a concern that i get river raised allin when i bet smallish which almost never happens at lowstakes haha. better start thinking that most ppl here dont have that kind of weapon as a bluff at 50nl and just bet/fold more at the river vs standard regs instead c/c

Yeah, something I've struggled with A LOT is to realise that people just wont bluffraise your rivers and do crazy stuff like that even close to the amount that you usually fear. And also, if you think about it, unless you have specific info that says he actually does bluffraise etc here, you can always think that 99% of the players wont, so even though you might get bluffed like 1% you're still doing a "correct" fold 99% of the time. Obviously, if this is the case the fold is always correct but I think you get what I'm talking about.

On August 19 2010 03:56 vlseph wrote: snaggle do you even play poker? i play hand the same except fold da river.

Yes, almost exclusively SHNL ring games and I started to shove AI pre flop with AA only after I grew from nit to lagtard ass and get called 1/3 of the time with pre-flop AI shoves with AA and KK; but as pokerstars is nit central one is likely losing a lot of value there with an AI shove, nits being folding stations...next too questions yes I'm a winning player (2 million hand sample) and yes I play full stack almost exclusively. Next two: I've been leveling a lot with my check raise advice and am only a micro ($25 and $50) and low ($100 and $200) stakes player.

On August 19 2010 02:56 soberstone wrote: First of all shoving AI pf is extremely bad and you are going to miss an insane amount of value if you try to 3bet shove 100BB here. Second of all, your right, I shouldn't have called your advice bad because you didn't give advice. All you did was say that his PF was good (and then proceeded to say he should have shoved?)..... and then said his postflop was horrible while making vague statements and not tying them into any sort of strategy. C/C this turn is good, if he hasn't made his hand by the turn then it is very unlikely that he will river you so there is nothing you need to protect and clearly if he does have a made hand you are only going to give him one street of value. I don't have a problem with bet/folding turn either, but you need to check/fold river if he calls. River is probably a fold, I would have preferred betting small and folding to a raise depending on player type. If he's aggro. I like your line.

Everyones advice is colored both by how they play and their experience, the only value of any advice is that it gives one something to think about. There never is a correct generic advice, as the same advice will be poison for one player and gold for another. Also every hand happens only in the context of ones table image and the reads one has on others+ how well and quickly they adapt, all of which are situational. I gave an explanation of why this play was bad after the flop. He was ahead of hands that call him only pre and on the flop and progressively defined his own hand as a big pair. A bet here (the turn) is spew against most players, except a small one and that is very exploitable post flop

i like your own analysis whamm. bet/fold the river but not tooo small. the holding he actuall has is a very unlikely one btw imo. we should get value from QQ, JJ, Tt here alot. given he is utg.

snaggle you know if shit like 98o is in villain's range there's A LOT more hands you need to include in villain's range and not just 98o.

lol results oriented advice.

you played this fine. just call take a note and move on. if villain loves raise/calling trash utg then you can take a variety of adjustments. start 3 betting larger pf with your value hands. and you can even start mixing in some weaker more speculative holdings in position, what's he gonna do? call his 76s OOP and c/r bluff you on a KQx board? Just think about ways you can exploit a player like this. It's really quite easy.

On August 19 2010 12:55 YoMeR wrote: snaggle you know if shit like 98o is in villain's range there's A LOT more hands you need to include in villain's range and not just 98o. lol results oriented advice. you played this fine. just call take a note and move on. if villain loves raise/calling trash utg then you can take a variety of adjustments. start 3 betting larger pf with your value hands. and you can even start mixing in some weaker more speculative holdings in position, what's he gonna do? call his 76s OOP and c/r bluff you on a KQx board? Just think about ways you can exploit a player like this. It's really quite easy.

Yomer I did not include 98o in his range; though there's a huge difference between someones pre-flop call range and flop call range. His flop call range had to include T9s and 98s. I don't think one can bet the turn here without a read or call on the river. Most of the time the only hand that will pay one off here is KK. It would be fairly hard for QQ-TT to call here since that is the bottom of the hero's 3-bet range and consecutive boards tend to freeze action. If the hero c-bets and double barrels too often he would get action from those hands; but he too must be an unknown to the villain.

i play it the same nice hand. he could easily be vbetting worse and really should have almost no 9s or sixes. his play with 89o is not standard. I would expect to be losing here to basically nothing, maybe 910s/89s or 99 and that is contingent on him making a weird utg raise/call and also on him slowplaying the flop and/or turn.

i'm also just going three streets here a lot because a lot of his range is weighted to higher pairs preflop and i dont expect him to bluff much here