NL100 - basic flop spot limited info

Posting in low stakes because it is kind of basic. I have limited info on villian (100 hands, 28/25, cbets flop 9/10 and hasn't gone to showdown yet. UTG raise first = 22%, so I think AT/9Ts is definitely in his range.)

Submitted by : sweetbread

***** Hand History for Game 156189681 ***** Pacific
$100.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, August 13, 06:36:58 ET 2010
Table Limeira Real Money
Seat 4 is the button
Seat 2: vasya294 $183.54 USD
Seat 4: cracko18 $128.19 USD
Seat 7: y4itel $100.00 USD
Seat 9: Hero $132.95 USD
y4itel posts small blind [$0.50 USD].
Hero posts big blind [$1.00 USD].

Holecards
Dealt to Hero [ ]
vasya294 raises [$3.50 USD]
cracko18 folds
y4itel folds
Hero calls [$2.50 USD]

Flop (Pot : $7.50)

   
Hero checks
vasya294 bets [$5.00 USD]

raise to 17 and get it in if he repops. keep on betting any non A,T or 9 turn/river if he calls. if your actively tableselecting at nl100 you dont really have to bother balancing here. there is too big of a playerpool and with active tableselection you'll rarely play enough of the good regs for it to matter anyways

Board: Kd Qs Jh
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.888% 53.78% 01.11% 286983 5904.00 { KK-TT, ATs, KJs-KTs, QTs, JTs, T9s, ATo, KJo-KTo, QTo, JTo, T9o }
Hand 1: 45.112% 44.01% 01.11% 234819 5904.00 { KQo }

that's the loosest range for villain i can think of if he's stacking 132bb in there on the flop

i think i'd like
donk > checkcall > checkraise > checkfold

on (clean) turn i'd checkcall cbet or cbet myself
and (clean) river i'd checkcall cbet or cbet myself or bet against missed turn cbet

donk flop = call raise ofcourse
sorry for spamming four posts in there

i like check call all 3 streets.... tbh the only thing that he gets in thats worse than your hand is AK, and mybe JQ...

raise is bad becuase your also taking away his initiative to keep barreling off with something like AQ or worse.

this hand (just played) made me think of this thread (same stakes even)+ Show Spoiler +

there was some history here + Show Spoiler +

so i think it's the combination of the flushdraw and the history that made me checkshove turn instead here (have some more equity plus his range is probably wider)

i think i like to just call his flop bet, lead the turn (to prevent him from checking through with a pair+draw combo) if he raises the turn i think it would be best to get it in.
if he just calls the turn, fire the river again

The flop looks like a steal to me, if so betting would force a fold. I would check again or check raise him if a scare card hits. He's stealing here most of the time, so let him spew those chips.

Ok, I'm convinced snaggle is exclusively posting only bull shit advice leveling players, which is stupid and immature.

i dunno if i like calling utg range with KQ oop or ip for that matter.

as played i think c/r is prob superior GIVEN that you provided the 9/10 cbets. I imagine he will bet most of his top pair hands as well as pair + draw hands.

Against a more competent player leading is most likely best as it allows villain to call with many pair + draw hands, as well as some top pair hands.

you don't like calling KQ versus a looser player? (probably has KJ, KT, QJ, QT, K9s, Q9s, maybe some worse Kx suited) in his UTG range here

On August 15 2010 05:57 mnj wrote: Ok, I'm convinced snaggle is exclusively posting only bull shit advice leveling players, which is stupid and immature. i dunno if i like calling utg range with KQ oop or ip for that matter. as played i think c/r is prob superior GIVEN that you provided the 9/10 cbets. I imagine he will bet most of his top pair hands as well as pair + draw hands. Against a more competent player leading is most likely best as it allows villain to call with many pair + draw hands, as well as some top pair hands.

I would like to explain my reasoning. The table is short handed, the villain is playing very loose and essentially raising every hand he's playing; that does not mean he's an idiot about hand selection. A hand like T9 or AT is hard to play in early position T9s and ATs certainly could be in his range; but are less likely than hands like AK-AJ whether suited or not and sets with KK-JJ or even AA and TT. If checked to this villain will bet this entire range including air. If he does have the nut Straight or even the idiot end str8 he might check behind being desperate to be paid off rather than bullying out another player.

Sticking what I think the villain's true range is onto pokerstove one gets the following result ( cards not exact as I don't remember rainbow flop suits):

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

139,590 games 0.023 secs 6,069,130 games/sec

Board: Kc Qd Jh
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 32.745% 30.26% 02.48% 42244 3464.50 { 22+, A9s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, ATo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 67.255% 64.77% 02.48% 90417 3464.50 { KsQc }


I think the hero is well ahead of this villain's range. A check raise if a scare card hits will force the fold of all of his pairs and air hands likely his sets too. Naturally this is high variance and pretty dangerous but he has a lot of non-nut straights and air in his range. If he shoves AI on one one can say that he likes his hand if he just calls one still has a redraw on the river and a chance to push him off his hand once more. Playing a villain like this is not the same as playing the typical nitty LHNL player. He would be very aggressive even for a SHNL player. One must be willing to gamble with these guys and play back at them even with air or weak hands compared to the board. Whether or not one would actually check raise him here depends upon whether one thinks he's a whale maniac just there to gamble or whether he's able to play post flop well, obviously one can't CR a whale here ever.

I don't think this line of reasoning is a level or even bad advice. I obviously don't have as good a read on this player as the OP should have. My line here is based on a likely read of the villain combined with the fact that the OP's table image is likely pretty tight as he has been folding to him ,which will both encourage the villain to out play him and give decent fold equity if the hero plays tough rather than nitty. I play by reads and table image as much as by my cards and the board.

If you think I'm being an idiot here that's fine-just tell me why I'm an idiot.

As borehm's stove shoved our hand clearly isnt strong enough to check/raise. I would only lead if I had a good idea of how he would react to it, with no read you're setting yourself up to make misstakes taking that line. If this was against a late position open there's more reason to lead as he has more bare 1pair hands on this board, with a utg opening range the amount of hands where leading gives a better result than check/calling is quite small even if he plays his range face up.

snaggle, just because you're ahead of villains range for betting the flop doesnt mean you should check/raise, consider what hands he will continue with against a raise aswell as how future streets would play out. Then even if you conclude that your hand is strong enough to raise for value you should think about possible advantages to taking other lines and weight the benefits against each other.

You are saying he cb alot, so start by c/c.

On August 15 2010 11:09 Oskar_123 wrote: As borehm's stove shoved our hand clearly isnt strong enough to check/raise. I would only lead if I had a good idea of how he would react to it, with no read you're setting yourself up to make misstakes taking that line. If this was against a late position open there's more reason to lead as he has more bare 1pair hands on this board, with a utg opening range the amount of hands where leading gives a better result than check/calling is quite small even if he plays his range face up.

Here is what I'm doing by a checkraise. 1. this player is not going to showdown because he's bullying others out and folding when they rep strong hands that will not fold. 2, He's about 75% to fire the turn even with air+, a checkraise on the turn when a scare card hits looks like we're repping the nut Straight one could do this even without a scare card. 3. He pretty much folds anything but the nut str8. 4. We're putting fear into him, which will either make him either leave the table or tighten up against us..5 If we go to showdown we still have a 4 out redraw and he will call most of the time. 6. It's cool to be "crazy". It gets one both folds pre and on the flop and more action post flop.

All I'm really doing is applying this advice:

"Adjusting to the LAGG

The toughest player to adjust to is the LAGG. This is typically because a good LAGG will try and adjust to you while the other four player types typically will not. There are a few ways to beat the LAGG:

1. Position, position, position. Being OOP against his player is a death-warrant, they are far too aggressive and too good of hand-readers to play profitably against. In order to decrease their edge you must have position on them. This will force them to tighten their range PF making is marginally easier to play against them postflop

2. Inducing bluffs from these players can be a profitable move. These opponents pounce on weakness, so showing some passivity with medium-strength hands can become profitable. Instead of betting these hands checking behind flops and turns to snap-off bluffs can do two things. For one it may maximize value on your hands, but it also helps to slow the LAGG down, which once again tightens his range in spots. If he fails to adjust, just keep owning him by playing pots in position and dictating the size of the pot.

3. Play chicken. This player type is one that is very aggressive but also plays a range a bit too wide to stand a lot of aggression. Learn to 4bet bluff (either small 4bets or shove), 3bet light in position, take away pots postflop, and bluff a player who has too wide of a betting range. This adjustment will get you into very marginal spots, so if you are not a fan of variance see the next bullet point.

4. Tighten up. Against someone playing aggressively and with a wide range it would behoove you to tighten up significantly and use the edge you gain from starting-hand values to beat them. Be careful though, against an aware LAGG who notices you tightening up you will have to re-adjust and begin playing looser when he starts giving you too much credit."-Spenda's 5 biggest leaks of a losing NL player, Flopturnriver.

snaggle, the question in the op is how to play against an unknown not an imaginary hyper lag. Also you're extremely rarely going to fold out any better hand than KQ on this board regardless of the line you take.

snaggle, why would we want to bluff with top2 here?

since u dont have any history and barely any stats i wouldnt be that happy getting in 130bb here. with that in mind i would probably check-call 3 streets on safe cards.

On August 16 2010 01:44 Oskar_123 wrote: snaggle, the question in the op is how to play against an unknown not an imaginary hyper lag. Also you're never going to fold out any better hand than KQ on this board regardless of the line you take.

If the Jack was a diamond (so that the board was two-toned), would it change things much? Check-calling x3 on non-A, 10, 9 turns seems best i suppose.