PLO25 600bb deep preflop

On May 04 2010 13:16 Spicy wrote: i certainly don't want to flat the 3bet, leaving a $5 pot on the flop with $140 behind in which case I'm never taking his stack unless I quad vs top boat him

i think the flaw in this is that youre only worried about stacking him, when what you should be worried about is EV.

even if you get the opportunity to stack him by putting in $24 preflop, this play probably has a lower EV than putting in $5 preflop and pot/pot/pot.

stacking someone doesnt necessarily mean that the play overall is the most +EV. youre not at all considering the money you lose and fold away when you miss.

There are so many other factors here to consider other than EV though
Especially this deep, I figured this was good situation to give up a preflop edge for all the benefits I mentioned before
Also, there were 2 regs at the table fighting for his money so putting myself in a situation to stack him before them was a concern

Anyway, those were just my reasons for making the play.
The hand could have been played "more optimally" whether you want to define that in terms of EV or something else.

iep, bad 4bet. Why u wanna put so much money on a hand thats gonna hit the flop 25% of the time.

4bet only when u have a read that vilain is 3betting u light, but do it with strong hands like AKQJ double suited.

-_- will people stop posting advice without reading through what's already been said and w/o considering the context of the hand

I 4bet him trying to build a pot so I can stack aces
and why would I 4bet AKQJ vs AA as it has even worse playability vs his hand
I'd have to hit 2 pair w/o using my ace and cards to the higher end of my straights are blocked

And I agree with Dusty that a hand like JJTT would be a much better hand to do this with but this guy was pretty much not 3betting at all, and when he did, he potted flop and called off 3:1, 4:1 shoves so I took this opportunity and ran with it

On May 04 2010 18:29 Spicy wrote: There are so many other factors here to consider other than EV though

????????????

On May 04 2010 18:29 Spicy wrote: The hand could have been played "more optimally" whether you want to define that in terms of EV or something else.

????????????

Giving up EV preflop for the purpose of being able to win more money postflop, and being able to choose when to get in (and when you choose to get it in, you'll be in amazingly good shape)

im not only talking about preflop EV, talking about EV of the entire hand. its not just about how much money you win postflop, its about the whole picture.

going by your logic, its like saying putting in 15bb pre with a small pair in NL is better bcuz youll stack AA more easily when you flop a set as opposed to putting in 3bb pre.

heres a very simplified EV calculation of this hand.

.25 * -$23.50 + .75 * .9 * $144.57 = $14.9 (the 25% when you miss and fold the flop + the 75% you flop a set and get it in with 90% equity)

.25 * -$5 + .75 * .9 * $135 = $26.6 (the 25% when you miss and fold the flop + the 75% you flop a set and pot the flop/turn/river with 90% equity on the flop)

obviously theres a few other variables but i think this should illustrate my point.

That's because the postflop value of AA in holdem and PLO are different
AA plays MUCH more differently depending on the amount that goes in preflop in PLO

I am never getting more than a single PSB out of him in a 3bet pot with 90% equity (which is what i've been trying to say)
Even fish don't play their AA that badly in PLO, unless they don't know the rules or something
In fact, a lot of them play AA more conservatively than the regs will if the pots are small and they miss
and that's why i'm building the pot preflop because its the only way i'll get him to overplay his aces

On May 04 2010 20:40 joLin wrote: going by your logic, its like saying putting in 15bb pre with a small pair in NL is better bcuz youll stack AA more easily when you flop a set as opposed to putting in 3bb pre.

that's not a really great analogy because the circumstances are so different. you're half as likely to flop a set in hold'em and you're more likely to get a lot of value regardless of how much money is in preflop just because aces are so strong in hold'em. In Omaha aces are sometimes played so face up that they're not going to pay you off when it's obvious you have at least 2 pair.

On May 04 2010 19:18 Spicy wrote: -_- I 4bet him trying to build a pot so I can stack aces

-_-

On May 05 2010 12:42 Twisted wrote: Show nested quote + On May 04 2010 19:18 Spicy wrote: -_- I 4bet him trying to build a pot so I can stack aces -_-

what? you can't get any money out of aces this deep in PLO unless you build a pot
Anyway, I've gotten feedback from a veteran HS PLO player about this hand and he said it was good
Calling the 3bet is good if his hand is this face up as aces because you can get him to fold if you've missed your hand (Which I think is a solid low variance play)
But the point that I've made about the 4bet was because this guy is a superfish and I wasn't happy with winning a small pot because I saw that being able to stack him with a hand like this was a more lucrative option

pretty advanced play lol

name the veteran HS PLO player...

I went and looked back at who it was, but what I misinterpreted as advice from a HS PLO player from a Taiwanese community came from 200PLO reg (I didn't know the exact stakes he played when he commented and I misassumed)

In any case, I'd appreciate it if this thread would just be closed
I thought it might generate good discussion so I allowed Jolin to open it, but it's just been me sounding retarded

Thanks to Dusty and blackjack for contributing well-reasoned advice

And I apologize if I came off as a know-it-all douche at any point in this discussion
I'm very critical of arguments that I can find flaws in (and please reason me into thinking otherwise if I've made bad judgments)

wow cool discussion. Gives some new concepts to think about. Would be nice if peachy or some other high stakes PLO player to comment on this hand.

Your missing something important here, this is 25PLO, everyone is fukin sick nasty and will see right through your plan, fold pre imo.

I don't play PLO, but this is obviously a retarded line of thinking you've got there, putting 100bb in just so u can flop ur set and stack him? What do you do on KJT flop?

On May 13 2010 19:40 Fayth wrote: I don't play PLO, but this is obviously a retarded line of thinking you've got there, putting 100bb in just so u can flop ur set and stack him? What do you do on KJT flop?

It's really not that "obviously retarded."