PLO25 600bb deep preflop

http://www.liquidpoker.net/hand/hand.php?hand=823527

im curious about what you guys think about the discussion in that hand. i dont play PLO at all so im not sure if theres something im missing or whether it still holds true that we shouldnt be aiming to put as much money in as possible while behind preflop.

if im way off please correct me!

Looks like a spazz 4bet to me, I would flat the 3bet

yeah our hand has a polarized equity distribution. Those hands play better, when the stack to pot ratio is highest. Through the plan, in the hand, that hero described we only have 3 times the pot left on the flop, which is really not good.

It all depends on how sure you are he has AA. If he's any good I don't know if he should 4bet bad AAxx here actually. If he has 100% AA when he 5bets and you make money when he just calls the 4bet I think it's fine, but that's two "if"s I'm not sure about. Also, I'd much prefer this with something like JJTT and such whis for one has a lot more equity and also tends to overset shit much more often (like if he has AA77 or something).

I dunno, pre flop deep in PLO you can't fuck up too badly as long as you keep to hands that's not often dominated when you get it in and you try to play in position.

I think if you're gonna 4bet you should make it a small 4bet instead of a pot sized 4 bet. You get a much better price and it probably doesn't hurt your implied odds as much because the fish is thinking "im never folding after 5betting it preflop" and not "i'm never folding after putting 100bbs in preflop"

I was considering a min4bet and It might have been a little better

and my reason for 4betting at all was to give me the best chance of stacking him if I hit
i certainly don't want to flat the 3bet, leaving a $5 pot on the flop with $140 behind in which case I'm never taking his stack unless I quad vs top boat him

4bet JJ55
[x] not dominated
[x] in position
[x] put myself in a situation to stack megafish

On May 04 2010 10:52 blackjacki2 wrote: I think if you're gonna 4bet you should make it a small 4bet instead of a pot sized 4 bet. You get a much better price and it probably doesn't hurt your implied odds as much because the fish is thinking "im never folding after 5betting it preflop" and not "i'm never folding after putting 100bbs in preflop"

price on what? a min 4b has 0% fold equity whereas pot sized has some (prob close to none though, with these stack sizes)

min4bet gives me a better price on calling 5bet

I think 4betting this hand is not good. It's not a very good hand.

On May 04 2010 13:16 Spicy wrote: i certainly don't want to flat the 3bet, leaving a $5 pot on the flop with $140 behind in which case I'm never taking his stack unless I quad vs top boat him

i think the flaw in this is that youre only worried about stacking him, when what you should be worried about is EV.

even if you get the opportunity to stack him by putting in $24 preflop, this play probably has a lower EV than putting in $5 preflop and pot/pot/pot.

stacking someone doesnt necessarily mean that the play overall is the most +EV. youre not at all considering the money you lose and fold away when you miss.

There are so many other factors here to consider other than EV though
Especially this deep, I figured this was good situation to give up a preflop edge for all the benefits I mentioned before
Also, there were 2 regs at the table fighting for his money so putting myself in a situation to stack him before them was a concern

Anyway, those were just my reasons for making the play.
The hand could have been played "more optimally" whether you want to define that in terms of EV or something else.

iep, bad 4bet. Why u wanna put so much money on a hand thats gonna hit the flop 25% of the time.

4bet only when u have a read that vilain is 3betting u light, but do it with strong hands like AKQJ double suited.

-_- will people stop posting advice without reading through what's already been said and w/o considering the context of the hand

I 4bet him trying to build a pot so I can stack aces
and why would I 4bet AKQJ vs AA as it has even worse playability vs his hand
I'd have to hit 2 pair w/o using my ace and cards to the higher end of my straights are blocked

And I agree with Dusty that a hand like JJTT would be a much better hand to do this with but this guy was pretty much not 3betting at all, and when he did, he potted flop and called off 3:1, 4:1 shoves so I took this opportunity and ran with it

On May 04 2010 18:29 Spicy wrote: There are so many other factors here to consider other than EV though

????????????

On May 04 2010 18:29 Spicy wrote: The hand could have been played "more optimally" whether you want to define that in terms of EV or something else.

????????????

Giving up EV preflop for the purpose of being able to win more money postflop, and being able to choose when to get in (and when you choose to get it in, you'll be in amazingly good shape)

im not only talking about preflop EV, talking about EV of the entire hand. its not just about how much money you win postflop, its about the whole picture.

going by your logic, its like saying putting in 15bb pre with a small pair in NL is better bcuz youll stack AA more easily when you flop a set as opposed to putting in 3bb pre.

heres a very simplified EV calculation of this hand.

.25 * -$23.50 + .75 * .9 * $144.57 = $14.9 (the 25% when you miss and fold the flop + the 75% you flop a set and get it in with 90% equity)

.25 * -$5 + .75 * .9 * $135 = $26.6 (the 25% when you miss and fold the flop + the 75% you flop a set and pot the flop/turn/river with 90% equity on the flop)

obviously theres a few other variables but i think this should illustrate my point.

That's because the postflop value of AA in holdem and PLO are different
AA plays MUCH more differently depending on the amount that goes in preflop in PLO

I am never getting more than a single PSB out of him in a 3bet pot with 90% equity (which is what i've been trying to say)
Even fish don't play their AA that badly in PLO, unless they don't know the rules or something
In fact, a lot of them play AA more conservatively than the regs will if the pots are small and they miss
and that's why i'm building the pot preflop because its the only way i'll get him to overplay his aces

On May 04 2010 20:40 joLin wrote: going by your logic, its like saying putting in 15bb pre with a small pair in NL is better bcuz youll stack AA more easily when you flop a set as opposed to putting in 3bb pre.

that's not a really great analogy because the circumstances are so different. you're half as likely to flop a set in hold'em and you're more likely to get a lot of value regardless of how much money is in preflop just because aces are so strong in hold'em. In Omaha aces are sometimes played so face up that they're not going to pay you off when it's obvious you have at least 2 pair.