very standard spot

As most of you know, i'm a pretty huge fish with a big e-penis

well believe it or not even i am not perfect. Sometimes I get my e-penis stuck in my e-zipper

this is a very standard spot that i've always played by ear but whenever I've been in the spot I have felt unsatisfied with the information at hand and end up calling or folding to a river bet or deciding weather to check or bet after he checks the river based on not-so-confident gut feelings

I am open to other ways of playing this hand on earlier streets. Basically what's my river play if he bets, what is my river plan if he checks.

My image is 24/17 or so and pretty taggy postflop. I have no special history with villain who I assume most of you know. I haven't played wiht him much but when I have he has seemed pretty taggy. (didn't have hud on so idk his stats). I'd only been playing 15 mins we hadn't even gotten in a hand yet if I recall.

Submitted by : Steal City

PokerStars Game #1337133713371337: Holdem No Limit ($5/$10 USD) - 2010/04/08 23:28:12 ET
Table Stfuubiatch X 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: kingTclubs ($1015 in chips)
Seat 2: CRabbitRun ($1025 in chips)
Seat 3: 100JackNich ($770 in chips)
Seat 4: DerekJC9954 ($3511.15 in chips)
Seat 5: Hero ($1222 in chips)
Seat 6: TINFLASK ($995 in chips)
TINFLASK: posts small blind $5
kingTclubs: posts big blind $10

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
CRabbitRun: folds
100JackNich: folds
DerekJC9954: raises $20 to $30
Hero: calls $30
TINFLASK: folds
kingTclubs: folds

Flop (Pot : $75.00)

   
DerekJC9954: bets $50
Hero: calls $50

Turn (Pot : $175.00)

   
DerekJC9954: bets $140
Hero: calls $140

River (Pot : $455.00)

   
DerekJC9954:

oh my god

ur cool rekrul

Since no one else seems to care much I'll just give my two cents.

This is one of those situations that has to be treated on a case to case basis. Things like general gameflow, timingtells, weird feelings and all kinds of crap needs to be considered before a good decision can be made. As far as what to do vs a bet I think that overall I like checking unless I for some reason think that I'll end up here with bluffs a lot (which I don't, really, unless I think that villian plays really weird). That is, unless something tells me that he's sitting with some kind of bluff catchers.

As far as what to do vs a bet I think it boils down to a lot of other stuff too. For example his betting frequencies as far as cbetting and barreling goes and his steal % from the Co. If he cbets a high % of hands I feel that it is very likely that he has a bunch of draws here very often. Now, let's say that he valuebets everything better every time since that makes a decent amount of sense and makes things easier. Obviously he does weird slowplays some of the time, but not very often so let's ignore that for now. Let's also assume that he never bets the turn without any equity, which also is faulty but it evens out with our last assumption a bit.

Then we can make up an example. Let's assume that he raises 25% of his hands there; that would be something like

22+,A2s+,K8s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,76s,65s,54s,A8o+,KTo+,QTo+

and I know that he range is pretty random but I tired to put in stuff I feel that most people like rather then just the top 25% of equity hands.

Let's also assume that he cbets 80% on that board and that his cbetting range is somewhat higher in air then it should be to be balanced considering how it's a good board to cbet. So he checks something like some of the Tx, some pocket pairs and some random air but cbets most crap including everything stronger then your hand, all gutshots, all somewhat decent backdoor draws etc. On the turn then he'll probably dubble barrel every time he picks up equity or turns something strong. He'll probably continue with any reasonable semibluff a high % and he'll bet better most of the time. He'll also barrel some air I guess, but I'm not certain and I'm also not sure if he feels compelled to barrel the river too (probably pretty likely).

So on the turn he has KT,KJ (maybe, but he probably checks that on the river), AK,KQ, TT,KK,AA,66 for value (+maybe random 2p which he spazzraised pf) and 54s, QJ,AQ,J9s, 97s,98s,87s, some combo 6cXc, some combo TcXc and probably a bunch of AcXc. Still enough equity to call.

On the river only 97ss, maybe Tc8c and 8c6c hits and he probably stops betting KJ some of the time which overall gives him a few more valuehands. Depending on if he's actually good or not he might decide (wrongly) that he has sd-value with 98ss type of hands and check a bit more. Overall your ahead of his total range with maybe 60% if my guestimations are good (prob not, fairly tired) so you'll just have to get an idea about how often he check/gives up his air here and if he's barreling everything better 100% (prob not) so as long as he actually bluffs with some of his hands (preferably AQ-kind of hands I guess since it has some kind of blockers) I'd be ok with calling here but I think it's close because of two things:

1. Some people just don't 3barrel enough so paying them off is spew.
2. If he's good he's probably somewhat balanced which makes the decision close anyway since your hand has to be qualified as a bluffcatcher given lack of history.

So I guess my standards would be to call some of the time just because of "fuck it, I'm fairly high up in my range and if he bets his bluffs some % I'm probably breakevenish" and fold most of the time due to people generally being nits on this kind of board since TP always calls. Timing tells will change this greatly though.

Also, a bunch of these assumptions are probably not true but I just made them to make the discussion easier. And I'm with you, these very common spots seems hard for those of us who isn't that good but still plays high enough to encounter competent people.

On April 09 2010 12:58 asdf2000 wrote: ur cool rekrul

thank you kiddie

I think it comes down to whether or not he fires 2 barrels with Tx,JJ,QQ
(i would check without history). You get to see his hand that'll help for next time.

basically u ended up in the same spot I did. I don't think his hand ranges matter much because if he's nittier it makes more sense to bluff here. If he's more laggy... this is a spot where he will get looked up so u'd assume him to slow down. He is more on the nitty side vs me so far hence my debacle. The thing is, if a player this a 3 bet here is +EV he will do it 100% and if he doesn't he wont ever do it.... basically, so it's less about his ranges imo and more about how regs play in this situation

one thing I don't agree with you though on is this

"Obviously he does weird slowplays some of the time, but not very often so let's ignore that for now. Let's also assume that he never bets the turn without any equity, which also is faulty but it evens out with our last assumption a bit. "

I don't agree. This seems like a logic fail. If I am thinking he's gonna 3 barrel because I fold KJ a shit load then there is little value in betting KQ but especially I think KK and even TT become check raising hands. If I'm only calling with 2p+ a riv bet then since I'm betting that whole range (+ maybe QJ and other random shit as bluffs) then checking is definitely superior. So the idea that he's v betting whenever he has a better hand than mine I think is a stretch.... which also makes calling a river bet more enticing since some of his value range drops out from v betting river.

idk this is how i see the hand. Plz correct me if something is non nonsensical


also just to state the obvious imo about bet sizing if he bets river
I don't think his bet size on river is of any consequence if he bets because, it's like, he could bet small bc my hand looks weak and he wants to get value or bc my hand looks weak, i know it, so it's a good bluff amount bc it looks like a v bet. Or he could bet big bc my hand looks weak and it's harder to call or for value to level me thinking I will interpret a big bet as a bluff bc my hand looks weak so it doesn't look like it's for value.

were you entertained?

On April 10 2010 01:26 DustySwedeDude wrote: Since no one else seems to care much I'll just give my two cents. This is one of those situations that has to be treated on a case to case basis. Things like general gameflow, timingtells, weird feelings and all kinds of crap needs to be considered before a good decision can be made. As far as what to do vs a bet I think that overall I like checking unless I for some reason think that I'll end up here with bluffs a lot (which I don't, really, unless I think that villian plays really weird). That is, unless something tells me that he's sitting with some kind of bluff catchers. As far as what to do vs a bet I think it boils down to a lot of other stuff too. For example his betting frequencies as far as cbetting and barreling goes and his steal % from the Co. If he cbets a high % of hands I feel that it is very likely that he has a bunch of draws here very often. Now, let's say that he valuebets everything better every time since that makes a decent amount of sense and makes things easier. Obviously he does weird slowplays some of the time, but not very often so let's ignore that for now. Let's also assume that he never bets the turn without any equity, which also is faulty but it evens out with our last assumption a bit. Then we can make up an example. Let's assume that he raises 25% of his hands there; that would be something like 22+,A2s+,K8s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,76s,65s,54s,A8o+,KTo+,QTo+ and I know that he range is pretty random but I tired to put in stuff I feel that most people like rather then just the top 25% of equity hands. Let's also assume that he cbets 80% on that board and that his cbetting range is somewhat higher in air then it should be to be balanced considering how it's a good board to cbet. So he checks something like some of the Tx, some pocket pairs and some random air but cbets most crap including everything stronger then your hand, all gutshots, all somewhat decent backdoor draws etc. On the turn then he'll probably dubble barrel every time he picks up equity or turns something strong. He'll probably continue with any reasonable semibluff a high % and he'll bet better most of the time. He'll also barrel some air I guess, but I'm not certain and I'm also not sure if he feels compelled to barrel the river too (probably pretty likely). So on the turn he has KT,KJ (maybe, but he probably checks that on the river), AK,KQ, TT,KK,AA,66 for value (+maybe random 2p which he spazzraised pf) and 54s, QJ,AQ,J9s, 97s,98s,87s, some combo 6cXc, some combo TcXc and probably a bunch of AcXc. Still enough equity to call. On the river only 97ss, maybe Tc8c and 8c6c hits and he probably stops betting KJ some of the time which overall gives him a few more valuehands. Depending on if he's actually good or not he might decide (wrongly) that he has sd-value with 98ss type of hands and check a bit more. Overall your ahead of his total range with maybe 60% if my guestimations are good (prob not, fairly tired) so you'll just have to get an idea about how often he check/gives up his air here and if he's barreling everything better 100% (prob not) so as long as he actually bluffs with some of his hands (preferably AQ-kind of hands I guess since it has some kind of blockers) I'd be ok with calling here but I think it's close because of two things: 1. Some people just don't 3barrel enough so paying them off is spew. 2. If he's good he's probably somewhat balanced which makes the decision close anyway since your hand has to be qualified as a bluffcatcher given lack of history. So I guess my standards would be to call some of the time just because of "fuck it, I'm fairly high up in my range and if he bets his bluffs some % I'm probably breakevenish" and fold most of the time due to people generally being nits on this kind of board since TP always calls. Timing tells will change this greatly though. Also, a bunch of these assumptions are probably not true but I just made them to make the discussion easier. And I'm with you, these very common spots seems hard for those of us who isn't that good but still plays high enough to encounter competent people.

GREEN STAR PLZ

On April 10 2010 12:26 asdf2000 wrote: I think it comes down to whether or not he fires 2 barrels with Tx,JJ,QQ (i would check without history). You get to see his hand that'll help for next time.

u do realize if he had QQ JJ he's less likely to put me on QJ. I mean if I knew QQ JJ is exactly 30% of his range say (a lot) then I think we're left with the same question as to weather we should check or bet

On April 10 2010 13:36 Steal City wrote:The thing is, if a player this a 3 bet here is +EV he will do it 100% and if he doesn't he wont ever do it.... basically, so it's less about his ranges imo and more about how regs play in this situation.

Trueish, but if we can't know what he thinks we can at least we can figure it out with experience. However, since we won't see every showdown etc we'll get a better general idea about how likely he is to be thinking in a certain way by figuring out how much he's barrelling. Also, it's somewhat interesting to know how often he gets to this point with air since most people at least bluffs a small % of the time just for kicks or balance or whatever else they decide is important.

I don't agree. This seems like a logic fail. If I am thinking he's gonna 3 barrel because I fold KJ a shit load then there is little value in betting KQ but especially I think KK and even TT become check raising hands. If I'm only calling with 2p+ a riv bet then since I'm betting that whole range (+ maybe QJ and other random shit as bluffs) then checking is definitely superior. So the idea that he's v betting whenever he has a better hand than mine I think is a stretch.... which also makes calling a river bet more enticing since some of his value range drops out from v betting river.

Yea well, your logic is fine and all but can we assume that he thinks that way often enough to make a huge difference? Obviously a random thinks like that some of the time, but it goes against intuition to check strong hands on dry boards unless your a notorious slowplayer. But you, sure, he can check the very top of his range here some of the time, but there's like one combo of KK, 3 of TT and he's less likely to check/shove the smaller sets (I think?) so maybe it's like on average like 2-3 combos that he check/shoves for value. And if we put in some of those we should put in like half a combo or something of c/shove bluffs maybe (even if it seems bad in a vaccum).

DerekJC is a crusha

that's my 2 cents

Im not gonna read the walls of text even tho Im sure its good stuff, but it looks like a pretty std call if he bets/check back if he checks.

DerekJC is a pretty cool dude

bleh, I think its a fold

I know for sure Derek is value-betting KJ+ all day here, and I think he knows this is a bad spot to bluff if he considers you a random. Its still close though since he could be value-betting his Kxs'. Im calling KQ.