Experimenting. Profitable Play?

Submitted by : hiems

PokerStars Game #39436447928: Holdem No Limit ($0.05/$0.10 USD) - 2010/02/08 14:53:41 ET
Table Elinor V 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: 4op4opopanih ($18.05 in chips)
Seat 2: asanvar ($10.30 in chips)
Seat 3: brano7 ($12.70 in chips)
Seat 4: rocketman227 ($11 in chips)
Seat 5: Engelander78 ($14.75 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero ($10.35 in chips)
Engelander78: posts small blind $0.05
Hero: posts big blind $0.10

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
4op4opopanih: raises $0.30 to $0.40
asanvar: folds
brano7: folds
rocketman227: folds
Engelander78: calls $0.35
Hero: calls $0.30

Flop (Pot : $1.20)

   
Engelander78: checks
Hero: checks
4op4opopanih: bets $0.80
Engelander78: calls $0.80
Hero: raises $2.60 to $3.40

i don't know why people try to overthink/overplay hands in micro, no ones folding any higher pocket pairs here

no
dont do this

This play seems spewy.

Does it change at all if the PFR is from like...Button or Cutoff???

And assuming I wouldnt have AK there so I had Ah6h

Alright so Im going to quote the book.

"Say for example you have been really going after a guy preflop and decide not to squeeze so you overcall something like A5s. The flop comes 732r, you check. The PFR cbet, whoever called preflop comes along. You should c/r this spot, you have an assumable backdoor flush outs, an overcard, and a gutshot. Not to mention a ton of fold equity, and it appears as though you must have a huge hand because you just c/r'd a particularly dry board into two players.

The risk you run is the overcaller having a set on this board, however this is unlikely and in the event that he does we should have a little bit of equity"

Just kinda want to establish that I dont usually do this // just trying to learn.

Hm well, Id be happy with this response :

Against a level 1 - Its a no. Most people at nl 10 are level 1.

But against a level 2, this play is (Good/Bad). But as mentioned, this is nl 10 and most people are level 1.

Is that you guys' reasoning?

Well the example hand you cite from fee's is a much more dry flop. You thinking is good, and this flop is on the cusp of your light semi-bluff sq range, problem is players hit this board win overpairs, draws, and single pairs and are more apt to continue with their hands that a flop like 723o.

You say you don't like racing with AK but you'll do all this fancy play 3way postflop?

play every single hand as strait forward as possible at 10NL, this way you cannot lose. EVER....remmeber, someones awlays willing to give u money at these limits....

Youre out-levelling yourself.

Your opponents arent thinking "hmmm, he C/R'd me on a dry flop into 2 opponents - must have a big hand"
theyre thinking "OMGOMG I GOT AN OVERPAIR!! SWEET!"

Heads up this is ok, but with the fish it becomes -ev.

And when you compare ev with a raise preflop this line is almost burning money.

Nothing wrong with experimenting though, if you can explain why you do things and then ask for thoughts of others

This is a really bad spot to bluff. You're trying to make a UTG raiser fold his range, and you're trying to make a fish fold as well. Those are two problems right off the bat.

The other thing is you are leveling yourself if you think people will fold as much as they do at NL10. I don't mind some of your logic with AK, and I've even had a blog post where I've mentioned the same, but that was against super nit NL100 players that I've had thousands of hands on and I am certain they will fold anything that isn't a set.

Saibot - This board is def not "much" wetter than the board in the example...And I dont see how my decision not to stack off preflop has to do with making this play?

Lemon - Interestingly, This spot is an example where he says you will see "an increase in the success of these types of plays in multiway pots...(He then writes up the example)...and says "It appears though you must havea huge hand because you just c/r'd a particularly dry board into two players"

They key basically, is that check/raising multiway allows you to represent a set. Whereas if its just heads up, you rep much more than a set, such as 88,99,TT,JJ, etc...


Anyway that being said...I see now why this play is so bad.
1) I definately was not paying enough attention to the players to make this play okay. If they are fish, it would be wise not to make this play.
2) I did not consider the position of the players, as the examples given in the text made no mention of the positiion of the PFR. I can see theres probably a huge difference between making this play against a UTG/MP raiser vs someone OTB/CO.

On February 08 2010 17:16 hiems wrote: Saibot - This board is def not "much" wetter than the board in the example...And I dont see how my decision not to stack off preflop has to do with making this play?

I know its not that much wetter, which is what makes your line so marginally effective and only under the best circumstances, i.e. tight players and air. Ultimately what I'm getting at is that you should have just 3bet preflop. UTG raiser can easily be any PP and AJ+. Even if he ships and shows you KK you're not in horrible shape. You cant go around putting tight players on AA every time they raise. 3bet now and he'll probably setmine, miss, and fold.

I'd just 3-bet pre. You'll run into aces/kings sometimes but you'll also run into AQ, get folds, get calls then flop folds or spike A/K. Like someone said above keep it simple. No need for fancy play. Someone stacks off w/ AA or KK vs you you can simply chalk it up to a perfectly played cooler. I'd 3-bet here 100% of the time.

I don't think the squeeze on the flop is that bad. You have tons of FE, the fish is always folding and cbettor has rubbish most everytime. Even if called you have 10 outs. You definitely raised way too big though. Even with all that I don't think I'd ever make this move at 10nl where people really dont give a shit.

im more inclined to 3bet here than if there was no caller in between. youre going to get to isolate that fish caller a ton with a squeeze and play a pot vs him in position.

u dint 3bet this hand becuase u were scared u would get callers and miss flop. dont lie

terribly -ev imo

Hm...The concept of getting value in 3b pots is new concept to me. Good to know of that possibility (Getting value from the fish overcalling with like random pocket pairs, broadways, suited connectors, whatever it is that he calls with...)

And to the people discussing 3betting this. Do you auto-assume a villain has a 4-bet range of QQ+,AK? And just ship 100%?? I dont understand how to respond to a 4 bet well at all unless its KK or AA...lol.

I think Tom mentioned that in a response to some low stakes post a while ago, that "Against some opponents, its profitable to 4-bet // fold AK"Could someone explain to me how this works, so I can try to understand that logic behind 4bets?

Cause its def a weak part of my game...And since I wasnt comfortable responding to 4bets with AK....I didnt 3betting AK because In the guide it says "Dont ever make a Squeeze with non-junk hands unless you are willing to stack off"

You should play at stakes where you are comfortable "racing" with AK preflop. I mean that completely seriously. It's more important than you think.